Why is damage always something linked to the characters health/stamina/hit points?
Surely what the character is wearing or carrying should enter into the equation?
Why should a swipe from a sword always impact the character's hardiness or a shot from a gun always injure the character? What about the armour he is wearing or the equipment he is carrying?
There are plentiful real-life stories about a book or cigarette case taking a bullet, why isn't this factored into damage in games? How would you factor this into a game?
I thought some games DID factor that kind of stuff into it all.
GURPS in 3rd edition did.
While running 4th edition GURPS, if a player has an unusual success roll surviving a hit that he or she normally wouldn't - as the GM I've said something like a metal item or other small bit equipment they were wearing deflected the shot.
-Ed C.
A lot of games factor armor into damage, as damage reduction. Even factoring it into the armor class, technically impacts the amount of damage you sustain, so you could argue it is being factored in there as well. I think including stray items on your person however, would get a little on the complex side.
Alright then...here's a real life example to figure out in your preferred gaming system:
Person walking at a normal rate. He is wearing the equivalent of leather armor from the waist up, head unprotected. Around one shoulder, strap diagonallyt across his body he is wearing a leather shoulder bag . (bigger than a woman's purse - like a large-ish laptop bag)
He gets hit by an automobile thats going around 10 to 15 miles an hour.
Does he survive or not ?
And why?
What are the numbers and saving rolls involved?
- Ed C.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;372712A lot of games factor armor into damage, as damage reduction. Even factoring it into the armor class, technically impacts the amount of damage you sustain, so you could argue it is being factored in there as well. I think including stray items on your person however, would get a little on the complex side.
Damage reduction is one way of doing it, for sure. But does armour always get in the way of a hit?
For Armor:
Didn't the original Stormbringer work that way? Armor reduced damage that hurt the character, but took some of it in turn.
I vaguely recall some game where gear just added to ones innate "hit points" quite simply.
I think part of the "take damage" thing is generally you assume a very low damage roll, or a absorption by the gear worn (whatever it is) counts in that case.
As mentioned above a critical failure to hit might also not equate to a miss in some games, but a failure to do damage.
Most gear has such a small cover area that its only relevant in some very extreme circumstances, and modelling around those circumstances not worth the time for most people.
I usually use a game of some time with things like Hero Points, Luck, Karma, I assume spending those to reduce a damaging event is exactly something of the sort. A shot that bounced off a buckle, or one that passes through the body without hitting anything truly vital.
Quote from: One Horse Town;372709There are plentiful real-life stories about a book or cigarette case taking a bullet, why isn't this factored into damage in games? How would you factor this into a game?
The Elfquest game by Chaosium allowed metal ornaments to act as armor if a certain roll was made, to emulate a scene in the comic book where a metal headpiece acted as a piece of armor.
Quote from: ElfquestRPGMetal Ornaments: most metal armor worn by anyone in the World of Two Moons is purely accidental. A decorative piece of jewelry may actually stop some damage points if it is hit by a weapon. Such jewelry is rarely worn on the legs, often on the arms and head and occasionally on the body. The armor points of the piece should be rolled when obtained.
If a character is wearing metal ornaments on a hit location receiving damage, he may make a roll of his POWx3 to see if the damage hit the ornament. If the damage exceeds the armor points of the ornament, the ornament absorbs damage equal to its armor points and breaks (after all, it is not meant to take damage). Excess damage goes on through to damage the target. If the damage done is equal or less to the armor points of the ornament, the ornament loses 1 armor point and there is no other result. As with weapons, the ornament's hit points are equal to it's armor points.
Basically, make a roll to see if something hard that the character is carrying takes the hit, especially if the hit is to the location where it's being carried.
Edit: The downside is that some people may think this qualifies for the "Stuff You Don't Want To Have To Roll For" thread.
Quote from: One Horse Town;372718Damage reduction is one way of doing it, for sure. But does armour always get in the way of a hit?
No. But if you want to reflect that sort of thing, you will probably need hit location rules to go with it.
Quote from: One Horse Town;372709Why is damage always something linked to the characters health/stamina/hit points?
Surely what the character is wearing or carrying should enter into the equation?
Why should a swipe from a sword always impact the character's hardiness or a shot from a gun always injure the character? What about the armour he is wearing or the equipment he is carrying?
There are plentiful real-life stories about a book or cigarette case taking a bullet, why isn't this factored into damage in games? How would you factor this into a game?
I think that Palladiums AR system fits what you are saying very well. Depending on the roll. Sometimes the armor is hit. Some times the individual is hit. Either way damage is done to one or the other. If the armor is damaged to the point it is no longer effective is providing protection. At the same time the armor can be by-passed to hit the individual depending on the "skill" of the shot.
Realistically having a bullet bounce off the cigarello box in your pocket is probably rare enough that it may be best handled by spending Plot Points (TM). Otherwise, unless you can rig it off another roll so it happens infrequently, it could require another die roll with a very low % chance of success (a la say a World of Synnibarr character making their 10% Fate roll against physical damage).
Unrelatedly, armour values by location are neat, though IMHO if you do that its nice to break down armour penalties by location as well (helmet for vision checks, legs for running, arms for manual dex, etc).
GTG
Yeah, really, aside from some kind of extraordinary luck roll or the use of some kind of hero-point mechanic, I don't see it necessary to actually quantify he chance that your cigarello case would protect you from a bullet.
RPGPundit
Limiting the discussion to armor and not sheriff's badges or bibles...
Yes, Stormbringer/Elric! use armor reduction but the reduction is variable. Effectively this means that weapons can hit you were you don't have any armor. In some BRP games this is done via hit locations. If I recall correctly, in most/many BRP games you also bypass armor on critical hits.
Harnmaster is similar to BRP.
TFT bypasses armor on critical hits. (Armor absorbs otherwise.)
Not sure about GURPS but it's similar to the above. So is Dragonquest.
Dragon Warriors has a separate armor-bypass roll. I'm not sure but it may forego variable weapon damage.
BESM 1e allowed you to treat armor ablatively if you wanted, so basically adds to your total hit points while you're wearing it, and gets chopped up as you get hit. I don't remember exactly how the system worked. Not as well as I'd like, but not as badly as could be imagined.
I seem to recall some game out there, probably an optional rule in one of the above, also having a cumulative armor damage rule. Like for every X points of damage absorbed, the armor's absorption goes down by 1, but it can be repaired.
In High Fantasy, IIRC, the combat chart always gave two results: damage to person and damage to armor, and when your armor was all gone, all the damage would go to the person. (Or something like that.)
The near-RPG board game Magic Realm had a nifty armor/damage system where armor would always protect you 100% from hits lower than the armor's rating, but hits greater than the armor's rating would destroy the armor and still hit you (with a reduced impact IIRC). Hits equal to the armor would damage it, and two "damage" results would destroy the armor. As well, each type of armor only protected against certain types of attacks. The game had a nifty, multidimensional combat system that allowed you to strategize about trading off a number of different offensive and defensive factors against each other.
Yep, Dragon Warriors had fixed damage (doesn't increase even for criticals, though crits automatically bypass armour. The recent reprint has optional rules for rolling damage.
From memory, HarnMaster had a rule where a hit could put a hole in armour and that would reduce subsequent armour protection. I don't know if BRP was the same.
Oh also ---Just to clarify on re-reading the OPs post and not sure if I missed a subtext --were you suggesting a system where your 'armour points' effectively work as extra hit points, e.g. like mega-damage body armour in Rifts?
Iridium V1 has ablative armor. Also, hit locations so a chainmail bikini means hits tot he midsection bypass armor. Also, criticals can bypass armor (about 2.5-5% of the time). Armor can be mixed and matched to protect vital areas for more points.
This is a V2 charsheet but armor works much the same. (http://www.hinterwelt.com/GMD/father.pdf)
Quote from: One Horse Town;372709Why is damage always something linked to the characters health/stamina/hit points?
Surely what the character is wearing or carrying should enter into the equation?
Why should a swipe from a sword always impact the character's hardiness or a shot from a gun always injure the character? What about the armour he is wearing or the equipment he is carrying?
There are plentiful real-life stories about a book or cigarette case taking a bullet, why isn't this factored into damage in games? How would you factor this into a game?
Damage is not always directly taken off 'health'.
I've used (and use) different versions of 'protection' in almost all my systems for the last 25-odd years. In a broad way, game designers use armor as an absolute avoidance value system (it decides whether you get hit or not, period..armor class is a perfect example), or as a protective value ( the armor stops a certain amount of damage, Tunnells and Trolls is a good example). There are a few other ideas, but 90% of the systems start here.
Often, Among the first 'complications' a GM throws at a ruleset they are creating for the sake of simulation is using
both of these. If the numbers are done right, it allows a GM to create a system where 'health; can be a little lower and often makes the game a lot more dangerous for those without armor.
The next major complications the GM can throw in here are Hit Location and Armor Ablation. Hit location allows a much more personalized and more realistic system, but getting to this layer of complexity escalates the amount of time spent rolling for stuff in combat. Ablation is also very realistic, but it adds another level of math and bookeeping.
Shields as absolute avoid or protection, parrying, weapon speeds and length primacy are at this level of complexity as well.
There are ramifications and benefits for all of the above, depending on the type of game you want to play. My ruleset saves Hit location for the advanced rules, but we use Avoidance and Protection values (with high damage potentials and lower Health than most games) to create at least a realistic armor outcome for the game my groups want to play.
I'm sure all of the above is nothing new, but maybe the breakdown is useful.
Why? Simplicity and ease of use.
QuoteIn a broad way, game designers use armor as an absolute avoidance value system (it decides whether you get hit or not, period..armor class is a perfect example), or as a protective value ( the armor stops a certain amount of damage, Tunnells and Trolls is a good example). There are a few other ideas, but 90% of the systems start here.
Good summary for most systems, though, again, there is a 3rd approach of 'armour as extra hit points'--which is what you get when armour stops damage the overwhelming majority of the time + you have ablation.
I don't like the approach particularly - I don't think armour should disappear when you hit it - but the approach is there.
The funniest example of armour ablation is in Palladium Fantasy I think - the weakest armour there (either padded or leather, I can't remember) has about 5 SDC --so if someone with no modifiers hits you with a punch (and assuming you don't dodge) there's about a 75% chance they bypass your armour entirely for full damage, a 20% chance its a wild swing and they miss, and a 5% chance that they hit your armour and destroy it (so that it falls off, leaving you naked ;) ).
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;373039Good summary for most systems, though, again, there is a 3rd approach of 'armour as extra hit points'--which is what you get when armour stops damage the overwhelming majority of the time + you have ablation.
I don't like the approach particularly - I don't think armour should disappear when you hit it - but the approach is there.
The funniest example of armour ablation is in Palladium Fantasy I think - the weakest armour there (either padded or leather, I can't remember) has about 5 SDC --so if someone with no modifiers hits you with a punch (and assuming you don't dodge) there's about a 75% chance they bypass your armour entirely for full damage, a 20% chance its a wild swing and they miss, and a 5% chance that they hit your armour and destroy it (so that it falls off, leaving you naked ;) ).
You know, I added it in at first, and erased it as a seperate approach as it is sort of in the protection school...but I am happy to add it in...
I like ablative armors in theory. In actual play, its another number to track and another pull from the immersion toward the mechanics.
In Tunnels & Trolls, we use "burning armor" as a player option. Let's say you have 10 CON left (its your HP) and 7 AR chainmail. If you take 20 damage, your would normally die. But, we allow the player to destroy their armor for double the AR value, so the 20 damage destroys the chainmail and the character takes 4 CON left. Bleeding, smashed, covered in broken armor but alive.
I am unsure if this was our houserule or something in the book.
In my new RPG, I am considering just making Armor = + X HP while worn. Like Fifth Element said, simplicity and ease.
Quote from: One Horse Town;372709There are plentiful real-life stories about a book or cigarette case taking a bullet, why isn't this factored into damage in games? How would you factor this into a game?
For me, that's the sort of thing I'd describe to a character's player as say a guy shoots at him, rolls, hits, and then, for his dodge attempt, the player rolls a critical success. Then, I describe how the movement was perfect etc... but the bullet hit him in the heart anyway.
The player then would go: "What the FUCK?"
Then, I describe that he realizes he is completely unscathed, and his cigarette case took the bullet.
Win.
It's all about interpretation, to me. The same way, the way a guy misses an attack roll during a 1 minute round doesn't mean he didn't hit his opponent, necessarily. He might have hit the opponent multiple times, but didn't actually do any significant damage. He didn't necessarily hit at all, however. It all depends on the flow of the game, how it unfolds, particular situations, etc.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;372712A lot of games factor armor into damage, as damage reduction. Even factoring it into the armor class, technically impacts the amount of damage you sustain, so you could argue it is being factored in there as well. I think including stray items on your person however, would get a little on the complex side.
Good point. A higher armour class means you are hit less often, so the average damage over time is lower. Not directly absorbing damage, but more like absorbing the kinetic energy behind the damage.
The original Deadlands (can't speak for the Savage Worlds version) had essentially three types of health:
Wind
Wounds
Poker Chips.
So a lot of hits just sucked the wind out of you, leaving you out of sorts but essentially uninjured.
Then you got fucked up by a real hit that actually wounded you.
Which you could totally avoid by tossing a poker chip at the GM and saying 'hit my bong, dude. I'm cool."
Of course, that meant the GM had a poker chip to use against the party later... but whatever.
The times I played the game it seemed that the poker chips were perfect. Maybe the GM was just Shit Hot about them (cause he sucked in many other ways...Can you said Plot Railroad? I knew you could....). the Chips represented a bunch of shit, including your XP, so spending them SHOULD have hurt like shit, but we players tossed them around freely to avoid dropping out of fights, to do some crazy spectacular shit or whatnot, and we still had enough to 'progress' in game terms.
In Hero System, that would be Damage Resistance with some form of Activation Roll - Probably 8- or 9- on 3d6. Hit Location armour is a form of Activation roll.
Either that, or a special effect of your Luck roll.
Possibly, Body/Stun that's not added to your total, with an Activation Roll.
Or a really small Barrier (Mobile).
Hero System: More ways to skin a cat...
What if your bodily health is less important than what you're carrying and what's inside you? Sure, damage can impinge on your physical capabilities, but your equipment is your key to survival.
So damage progresses like this. The more damage taken, the further along the progression track the damage goes - Armour, Equipment, Physical, Internal.
(* This is forked off from my Toys thread BTW :))
Quote from: One Horse Town;373083What if your bodily health is less important than what you're carrying and what's inside you? Sure, damage can impinge on your physical capabilities, but your equipment is your key to survival.
So damage progresses like this. The more damage taken, the further along the progression track the damage goes - Armour, Equipment, Physical, Internal.
(* This is forked off from my Toys thread BTW :))
Bodily health LESS important? you mean further 'downstream' in terms of the damage taken system?
and are you thinking an amount, a percentage? and ablative, in this case?
Quote from: LordVreeg;373097Bodily health LESS important?
Correct!
That battery charger, flashlight and shovel are the difference between life and death. Meanwhile, although a hindrance, getting a nasty gash in your rag-doll arm and losing some stuffing isn't. However, that power source inside you, next to your voice-box and internal amplifier, is your very life-blood.
Thus a damage track of:- Armour - Equipment - Physical - Internal.
Quote from: One Horse Town;373118Correct!
That battery charger, flashlight and shovel are the difference between life and death. Meanwhile, although a hindrance, getting a nasty gash in your rag-doll arm and losing some stuffing isn't. However, that power source inside you, next to your voice-box and internal amplifier, is your very life-blood.
Thus a damage track of:- Armour - Equipment - Physical - Internal.
OK. So I'm on it now.
How are you tracking health? how lethal do you want this to be? and this will help you get your numbers the rest of the way...
Quote from: LordVreeg;373119OK. So I'm on it now.
How are you tracking health? how lethal do you want this to be? and this will help you get your numbers the rest of the way...
I wasn't going to have health at all. Physical damage, although it'll have some mechanical effect can't kill you. Instead i'm going for your Power Source (whether that be clockwork, battery powered, or fuel cell) being your 'hit points'.
This does raise one bit of resource management that'll be a bit unusual - simply being active drains your effective hit points (ie your Power Source, your batteries drain down, you need winding up again etc).
Your Power Source will be intenral, so hardest to damage directly, but it's doable. 'Healing' will be charging up the batteries etc.
I think you just reproduced Starfire (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2891/starfire) as an individual skirmish-level combat game.
Could be fun, actually.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;373139I think you just reproduced Starfire (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2891/starfire) as an individual skirmish-level combat game.
Could be fun, actually.
Similar.
Manikins RPG
Chargen - You select a 'chasis' which is what material you are made of, leather, cloth, plastic, porcelain, metal, and choose modules for what you are capable of. The other thought is just have ready to use characters like China Figurine, Rag Doll, Plastic Robot, Clockwork Chicken etc
It's supposed to be post-apocalyptic, so what started the apocalypse affects the game assumptions.
So far i have -
Manikins vs Robots!
Manikins vs Aliens!
Manikins vs Monsters!
Manikins vs The Third Reich!
Manikins vs Giants!
Manikins vs The Bomb!
Manikins vs Zombies!
:D
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;372926Harnmaster is similar to BRP.
Actually it is not as far as damage goes.
In Harnmaster you don't have hit points. Instead you suffer injury which subtract off your attributes or multiplied by 5 to subtract off your skills. (Harnmaster uses a percentage system).
The bad effects happened when you blow one of the various injury rolls. It could be passing out or up to death. These rolls are usually rolled against a characteristic. For example a wound may call for a S4 roll which mean roll 4d6 against your Agility modified by your current injury. If you roll higher you stumble onto the ground.
It is rare but possible for both combatants to make all their injury rolls and literally be stumbling around the field flailing at each other with weak blows. Which is something that other system don't replicate very well.
The system works well in practice. The key element is a well designed chart that Columbia Games designed.
You can read up on it here
http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=4001
and the combat chart is here.
http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf
The basic procedure is
Attacker decides what aspect of his weapon he is using (point, edge, blunt)
Defender picks a defense of Block, Counterstrike, Dodge, or Ignore.
Both roll and compare relative success. (Critical Success, Success, Failure, Critical Failure). The critical are easy to know any % roll ending in a 0 or 5 is a critical.
From the chart you find out how many dice of impact you do. You roll that number plus adding a factor for the weapon you are using.
You roll hit locations You can aim high or low in addition to a general location.
You subtract the armor of the location that is hit off of the impact. If greater than zero then you use the injury to chart to find out what type of wound was suffered this tell you how many injury points and what saves that need to be made.
It is a rules heavy system but I found it to be one of the fastest and best of the "realistic" systems out there including GURPS.
Here at Bill Gant's Warflail site
http://www.warflail.com/harn/index.html
is a d20 vs harnmaster comparison of combat.
http://www.warflail.com/downloads/HMCvsD20.zip
Quote from: estar;373151Actually it is not as far as damage goes.
True. To summarize your points, Harnmaster has a much more detailed damage system, and it does a better job of distinguishing both penetration and effects of point/edge/bludgeon type weapons. Relative to BRP it changes cumulative hit points and hit-location hit points to cumulative impairment and saving throws for both general and location-specific effects.
But as far as how armor interacts with being hit and how armor interacts with raw weapon damage, on the way to the injury subsystem, it's very similar to Runequest, the only wrinkle being that weapons cause different amounts of impact depending on whether you use them cut, stab, or bludgeon, and armor absorbs different amounts of impact according to the same criteria. (Note: going from memory with HM 1e. HM 2e/3e is different somehow, but I can't remember how, just that I like 1e's approach better.)
In terms of its treatment of armor, HM is closer to RQ than it is to a game that has any of the features:
- Armor which makes it harder to hit you, but has no effect on how much damage you take from a hit. (Except for frequency of criticals, which are often tied to chance-to-hit.)
- Games where armor absorbs a variable amount of damage.
- Games where weapons that hit have to do a check to "bypass" armor, and will do full damage if and only if that check is successful; otherwise, they do no damage.
- Games that use ablative armor.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;373159But as far as how armor interacts with being hit and how armor interacts with raw weapon damage, on the way to the injury subsystem, it's very similar to Runequest, the only wrinkle being that weapons cause different amounts of impact depending on whether you use them cut, stab, or bludgeon, and armor absorbs different amounts of impact according to the same criteria.
Well the Armor is rated for the different weapons aspects as well. For example chain+quilt has Blunt 7, Edge 11, Point 7, Fire/Frost 5.
GURPS likewise makes a similar distinction however not as eloquently as Harnmaster. In GURPS the varying effectiveness of armor are written as exception to the DR rules. I long had a house rule that have players write out the armor Harnmaster style to make play go faster at the table.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;373159(Note: going from memory with HM 1e. HM 2e/3e is different somehow, but I can't remember how, just that I like 1e's approach better.)
2e/3e reduced the number of aspects. 1e had Blunt, Edge, Point, Fire/Frost, Squeeze, and Bite/Claw. 2e/3e just had the the first three. Plus 2e/3e treats injury much more harsher with the penalty coming all at once.
Hmm interesting.
Have only played HM once, though I think I could see two possible problems with the damage/armour system.
1) multiple armour layers. I liked that this was possible (unlike most other systems) but I believe protection ratings were cumulative -it looked like it really needed some sort of diminishing returns system.
2) It doesn't seem to actually modify weapon damage from Strength, for the most part. I saw a minor rule where you could get +25% damage by having a high STR and buying a extra-heavy weapon, but I didn't think it was really tight enough modelling.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;373184Hmm interesting.
Have only played HM once, though I think I could see two possible problems with the damage/armour system.
1) multiple armour layers. I liked that this was possible (unlike most other systems) but I believe protection ratings were cumulative -it looked like it really needed some sort of diminishing returns system.
There are some who advocate the square root of a sum of squares system. I find the encumbrance penalty to work as an effective check. It works similarly to injury levels that high encumbrance reduce some of your skills and attribute saves.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;3731842) It doesn't seem to actually modify weapon damage from Strength, for the most part. I saw a minor rule where you could get +25% damage by having a high STR and buying a extra-heavy weapon, but I didn't think it was really tight enough modelling.
Strength also factors into the skill levels for weapons where strength is a primary attribute. For example strength plays a bigger part in calculating the skill for a two handed axe than it does for a dagger. So strength influences the system in more than one way.
That's a good point, especially considering that higher levels of success generate more impact points.
Hmm true. OK, I'll concede that seems valid.
...Hang on, scratch that. Reconsidering.
From what I remember the critical chance is a fixed proportion of the to-hit chance in HM (any roll ending in 5 is a critical). So out of any hit, 20% of them are criticals and get the extra damage die? (barring rounding)
If that's the case, then assuming you hit, your average damage will be exactly the same regardless of whether you're Conan or his grandma.
Anyway, sorry, I should probably stop sidetracking the thread.
True, but to get a skill equivalent to her grandson, and an equivalent chance of hitting let alone getting a "really good" hit, she's going to need more experience and/or training. Her SB will be lower, so she'll start with a lower skill, and raising it will also be harder. When she gets there, we can interpret her equivalent skill as meaning that she's compensated for her lack of strength by being better at aiming, feinting, etc. But Conan is still going to have an easier time increasing skill still further.
(I forget if HM maxes skills out at 100%. At that point you can't really rationalize any more--it'd basically mean that Conan has to arbitrarily stop learning even though he hasn't realized as much of his potential as granny has.)
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;373205(I forget if HM maxes skills out at 100%. At that point you can't really rationalize any more--it'd basically mean that Conan has to arbitrarily stop learning even though he hasn't realized as much of his potential as granny has.)
It looks like the max skill is 100% + Skill Base. You could adopt the rule that a 100 always results in a 1% increase. It will mean that situational modifiers will have increasingly less impact on you.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;373204...Hang on, scratch that. Reconsidering.
From what I remember the critical chance is a fixed proportion of the to-hit chance in HM (any roll ending in 5 is a critical). So out of any hit, 20% of them are criticals and get the extra damage die? (barring rounding)
If that's the case, then assuming you hit, your average damage will be exactly the same regardless of whether you're Conan or his grandma.
Harnmaster does take that into account by reducing the impact of a weapon for low strength. But is Grandma hits the right spot then her opponent is just as dead as if he was hit by Conan. But on the average Conan is going to have an easier time learning weapons, and do more damage over time than Grandma.
Harnmaster has a lot of synergies that are not obvious.
Harnmaster is what I consider the most playable realistic system out there.
I consider GURPS + Advanced Combat + Martial Combat to most complete and realistic combat system that is playable. The main trick is to make sure you have a cheat sheet of all the manueveurs your character (and for the referee the opponents) like to do. It isn't that any one part of it complex but there is so much that without a cheat sheet there is a lot of page flipping.
GURPS does have a unitary hit point. But... different types of damage does different things depending on it's type and where it hits. For example any impaling damage that gets past armor is double, tripled if it is in the vitals, and it almost certain death if done in the eye. Of course the vitals are -3 to hit using 3d6, and eyes can be -9 to -10 (if wearing a great helm).
Hits to the arms can do only a max of your Health /2 damage. So if you have a 12 health the most you can take is 6 points from a arm hit. Of course this leaves the arm cripple or even severed if the damage is high enough. Taking half of your health in a single blow is enough to trigger a number of rolls against your health that may result in you going unconscious.
QuoteHarnmaster does take that into account by reducing the impact of a weapon for low strength
Cool.
QuoteHarnmaster has a lot of synergies that are not obvious.
Go on...
QuoteHarnmaster is what I consider the most playable realistic system out there.
Fair assessment I think - not that I've seen everything. Quibbling aside, I don't think HM is a bad system. I can't think of anything more realistic that's remotely playable.
Trying to locate the original point, I guess HM could be classed as an 'armour that absorbs injury' system ?--even though injuries aren't numerically described.
(Also, anyone remember how Rolemaster did armour? I seem to recall it was a similar situation to HM, insofar as alot of 'damage' was in the form of defined critical effects rather than 'hit points')
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;373241Go on...
Attributes effect things in basically three ways.
First they factor into your skill base which is important for character generation and advancement. I believe a dagger skill base is the average of STR DEX DEX, while a broadsword is STR STR DEX.
Second there are various special rules that use Attribute directly. This is pretty standard fare here. But in combination of #1 and #3 make for an interesting system.
Third, when you take injury and healing, different attributes come into play particularly for injury saves. High Agility means that stumble saves are easier to make and so on.
Not to say that Harnmaster isn't without falult. Most Harnmaster GMs run hybrids between Harn Master 1, Harnmaster Gold, and Harnmaster3. HM3 and HMG are alternative versions caused by the split between N. Robin Crossby and Columbia Games. HMG is more complex and detailed than HM3 but HM3 fixes some issue with the system. In HMG and HM1 is not uncommon to get into a situation where two opponents have beaten each other down to the point where they are unable to hit each other. HM3 fixes by changing by tweaking when injury penalties are applied but is perhaps too harsh.
You can read about a HM3 game that I ran here
http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2008/11/911-call-from-attic.html
So, i'm thinking of a damage track that looks like this.
Armour - Equipment (limited by Size of character) - Physical (Bulk of character) - Internal (based on the number of modules the character has)
On a character sheet it'll look something like this -
3-2-4-3
If the character takes, say 6 points of damage from an attack, that results in a Physical wound (6 overcomes both armour (3 points), and equipment (2 points), the sixth point puts it into the physical part of the damage track).
Had a look, interesting. And thanks!...actually I can totally steal the varying attribute-by-weapon thing for use with Dragon Warriors.
And the system for stumble checks/wound checks could work with Dragon Warriors too - its poison system works almost identically to 'kill' checks in Harn - though it'd need some work.
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With the toys damage track, so the 'damage' is actually a roll to see which sort of damage you take? It could almost work off an attack roll, D&D style - roll to hit and if you get their full AC they're hurt. Hit their 'touch' AC and it still gets armour or equipment, and a critical means an internal system? (sorry don't know what sort of dice rolls you're using)
You could lump 'armour' and 'equipment together - or 'equipment' and 'hit points' for that matter - since you'll probably need a roll to see which piece of equipment got destroyed anyway, you could include your 'armour' or 'hit points' on the list as an item.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;373442***
With the toys damage track, so the 'damage' is actually a roll to see which sort of damage you take? It could almost work off an attack roll, D&D style - roll to hit and if you get their full AC they're hurt. Hit their 'touch' AC and it still gets armour or equipment, and a critical means an internal system? (sorry don't know what sort of dice rolls you're using)
You could lump 'armour' and 'equipment together - or 'equipment' and 'hit points' for that matter - since you'll probably need a roll to see which piece of equipment got destroyed anyway, you could include your 'armour' or 'hit points' on the list as an item.
I was thinking along these lines for the damage track mentioned in a previous post
3
Helmet
Gauntlets
Breastplate
2
Flashlight
Shovel
4
Winded
Surface Wound
Minor Wound
Major Wound
3
Voicebox
Batteries
Skeleton
Therefore, with the 6 damage mentioned in that post, the character would be winded.
Characters will have different damage tracks depending on what they are capable of carrying and what modules they have. So the same 6 damage to someone without armour might go all the way to the Internal damage section.
Quote from: One Horse Town;373493I was thinking along these lines for the damage track mentioned in a previous post
3
Helmet
Gauntlets
Breastplate
2
Flashlight
Shovel
4
Winded
Surface Wound
Minor Wound
Major Wound
3
Voicebox
Batteries
Skeleton
Therefore, with the 6 damage mentioned in that post, the character would be winded.
Characters will have different damage tracks depending on what they are capable of carrying and what modules they have. So the same 6 damage to someone without armour might go all the way to the Internal damage section.
so what happens to the helmet, shovel, etc?
Are they damaged at all? In most systems i'd say maybe yes, maybe no, but in a damage track, I think it seems more likely yes.
Quote from: LordVreeg;373494so what happens to the helmet, shovel, etc?
Are they damaged at all? In most systems i'd say maybe yes, maybe no, but in a damage track, I think it seems more likely yes.
At this point i'm thinking along the lines of a type of 'saving throw.' Roll a dice, results - 1,2 cosmetic damage, 3,4 damaged (some kind of modifier to usage), 5,6 destroyed.
Quote from: One Horse Town;373520At this point i'm thinking along the lines of a type of 'saving throw.' Roll a dice, results - 1,2 cosmetic damage, 3,4 damaged (some kind of modifier to usage), 5,6 destroyed.
All well and good for a PC, but what of the GM who has a gaggle of orcs to deal with? Same tracks or not?
This was always my problem with armor gets hurt systems. The sheer amount of book keeping and dice rolling I'd have to go through. But then again, large battles with 30+ total combatants is something we seem to do fairly often.
EDIT: Ignore this, I will start another thread, I have a different direction I want to go.
Sorry for the interruption!
Quote from: Xanther;373652All well and good for a PC, but what of the GM who has a gaggle of orcs to deal with? Same tracks or not?
This was always my problem with armor gets hurt systems. The sheer amount of book keeping and dice rolling I'd have to go through. But then again, large battles with 30+ total combatants is something we seem to do fairly often.
It's still a valid point.
Further up this thread there are some mentions of other systems, and I myself mentioned more advanced rules in my own system that I avoid right now. Hit location for armor, Hit location for avoid, protect, vs slash/mash/thrust..., shock value of HP loss, injury vs damage rolls...these have all been minimized due to what Xanther talks about, group vs group combat.
Basically, there is something of a multiplicity effect for every combatant in a battle. And what works well with one-on-one or very small unit battles may be far too much paperwork for a 6 vs 30 fight, etc.