My questions here are for people with some knowledge of and experience with the d6 system. But probably the thread will be a place for me to talk about my campaign in general, so anyone can have useful things to say.

My coming campaign will be ordinary people who get caught up in the apocalytic events, manage to survive, and then take a leading role in the world after the Collapse.

For system, the players were offered a choice between all the more or less generic universal rpgs I had a copy of and was happy to GM: d6, d4-d4, Fate, GURPS 4e, Millenium's End, Risus, Timelords 2e (BTRC 1987), and Unknown Armies 2e. Millenium's End and GURPS they found too complicated to bother with, Timelords scared them off for some reason (I think it was the mention of the possibility of making themselves as characters!), Risus and Unknown Armies were too freeform for them, d4-d4 and Fate they'd tried and liked, but they fancied something new - so d6 it was!

The world be realistic-themed, so no dice in Extranormal...

Given that, what's a good level of ability? I was thinking that instead of the usual 18d in attributes and 7d in skills, it'd be 15d/6d. Minimum attributes 1d, maximum 4d, same for skill. I was thinking that each character should have some profession, but how many dice in it? The game tells us that difficulty 15 is a "professional" level. With modifiers for taking time, not being under pressure, a skill total of 5d (average result = 17.5) will be able to achieve this regularly. So to have a paid job doing something, that'd be about the minimum skill level, yeah? Of course, as for Funds, those with high Presence, some Contacts, etc, might avoid that...

Thoughts for character creation? I don't want to get a team of "professional" ninjas or anything silly like that.

Note: this is my first d6 campaign...

D6 is terrific for not having to sweat it too much.  Seriously, it really is as simple as "roll to beat the difficulty".  But if you need to get under the hood...

18D/7D will get you heroic characters. Anything else will not.  3D is Average for a Hero; 2D is average for a regular Joe.  Click here to read some posts on the WEG fora about proficiency levels, and get back with me if you need anything else.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!18D/7D will get you heroic characters. Anything else will not.

I like the d6 system so much better without Jedi powers mucking it up.  I ran a good mafia game with it some time ago, before they turned it into a universal system.  I don't know how it runs these days, but if it still has character points and wild dice options, 5D in a skill is more than enough.  In fact, 3D + character points/wild die almost guarantees you're going to succeed at most non-heroic tasks.  Of course, I always bumped the difficulties down a grade because I liked 10 better than 15 for routine tasks.  I don't think anyone got higher than 7D in any one skill by the time it ended, but that was plenty.

Pete

I don't think it is necessary to bump down the abilities of the PCs.  I played in a Star Wars campaign that lasted for a few years and no-one had a skill higher than 7D.  The closest was a bounty hunter who started with 4D DEX and added the maximum 2D to his blaster for a total of 6D.  Over the course of our adventures, he pushed the 6D up to 7D for a cost of 18 character points (which is quite a lot).  In other words, he really, really wanted a character with kick-arse blaster skill and even then could "only" manage 7D.  
 
In real terms, though, he rarely rolled 7D.  The rules on multiple actions mean that you can take an extra action by taking a -1D penalty.  So in most situations he was rolling 5D for attack (2 attacks plus a dodge).  Consequently, for someone with such a high blaster skill, he missed quite frequently
 
The rest of the characters were generally more well-rounded.  The other major PC in the campaign, a smuggler, had 6D in one skill, a small handful of skills at 5D and the rest in the 3D-4D range at best.  And that's after many months of gaming.  At no point did we feel ridiculously heroic.  The GM was frequently able to challenge the group and fights almost always felt dangerous.  The system has a death spiral, so it only takes one lucky blow and you're suddenly at -1D.
 
The escalating cost of increasing skills means that most players hit a point where it's better value to boost low-level skills than maximising their speciality skill/s.  In a post apocalyptic campaign, where characters may be called upon to use a wide variety of abilities, I suspect they'll be even more likely to spread their skills.  
 
All of this applies to Star Wars, though.  I don't know about d6 Adventure - whether it's muchly different or not.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkAll of this applies to Star Wars, though.  I don't know about d6 Adventure - whether it's muchly different or not.

Not by much.

Yes, Adventure seems to be the same. The xp cost for improving a skill by one "step" (3 steps per die) is the current level. So for example if you have Knowledge 4d and Business +1d, your total Business skill is 5d. To get to 5d+1 costs 5xp, to 5d+2 another 5xp, and to 6d, yet another 5xp. So smart people take longer to learn things than stupid or average people? Hmmm... I guess besides game balance, you might argue that smart people ask more questions, and tie their new knowledge into old knowledge...

The game seems to recommend 2-6xp per session/adventure. So it'd take a while for a character to go quite high.

I'm not really worried about how high characters end up, more how high they begin. Players are sometimes tempted to create quite lopsided characters. "Oh I'll never fight, so drop down Brawn, pump up Brains!" or vice versa. Then later they find they want to do this other stuff and suck terribly at it.

I think 15d attributes and 6d skills seems good (remember, one of the seven attributes, Extranormal, won't be used at all). That allows the character to be average (2d) at 4/6 of the attributes, good at one (3d) and impressive (4d) at another. The 6d in skills, in combination with the attributes, will let them be amazing (4d+4d) at something if they want to, and professional at a couple of things. There'll be one or two Disadvantages which I'll strongly recommend they take (low Funds, Reluctant Killer, Loyal to Group) which will give them a few extra points for Advantages or more skill dice...

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Click here to read some posts on the WEG fora about proficiency levels, and get back with me if you need anything else.

Hmm, that's interesting.  They modified that from the Star Wars days, when 4D was professional level.

edit: From memory, in Star Wars, this was the chart:

1D - really sucky, like your grandma's STR
2D - human average
3D - some training/natural talent
4D - professional level/amazing talent
5D - high level professional
6D - best in a city
7D - best in a continent
8D - best in a world
10D - best in a system
12D - best in a region
14D - best in the galaxy

Quote from: JimBobOzHmmm... I guess besides game balance, you might argue that smart people ask more questions, and tie their new knowledge into old knowledge...

Or that the easy stuff is learned first.  It takes a lot less effort to learn addition and subtraction than it does to pick up calculus.  

Pete

Quote from: pspahnOr that the easy stuff is learned first.  It takes a lot less effort to learn addition and subtraction than it does to pick up calculus.  

No, you're assuming that it's a normal skill level thing. It's not.

The cost is not based on how much of the skill you already have, but on your total.

So a guy with Knowledge 5d and Business 1d will have a Business skill total of 6d, and take 6xp to improve. But a guy with Knowledge 1d and Business 1d will have a Business skill total of 2d, and take 2xp to improve. The skill by itself does not affect the cost of improving the skill; the skill total is what changes it.

This is different from most systems, where the attributes and skills are treated separately in terms of improvement.

I don't mind it, it's just something which struck me as different.

Quote from: JimBobOzSo a guy with Knowledge 5d and Business 1d will have a Business skill total of 6d, and take 6xp to improve. But a guy with Knowledge 1d and Business 1d will have a Business skill total of 2d, and take 2xp to improve. The skill by itself does not affect the cost of improving the skill; the skill total is what changes it.

I've tried to write out my POV on this three different times now and can't come up with something that makes sense.  Text sucks sometimes.  

Pete

What the PCs will know...

Timeline of the
Christmas War
(Dec 25th-Jan 5th)

October 15th - US reveals Iran has purchased "several dozen" Yakhont supersonic anti-ship missiles from Russia. Diplomatic troubles begin between US/EU and Russia/Iran

November 3rd - US CIA report leaked showing former head of Pakistani nuclear programme AQ Khan's selling of nuclear technology and materials to other countries (Iran, Libya and DPRK) had taken place with permission of Pres. Musharaf. Also states China may have placed 12 nuclear weapons in orbit, aiming to use them as EMP attacks in time of war.

December 1st - Iran gives notice that it will withdraw from the NPT (Nuclear non-Profileration Treaty)

December 8th - UN resolution adopted enforcing technology sanctions against Iran (China and Russia abstain on vote), US rhetoric aggressive

December 15th - Iran announces it is blockading the Straits of Hormuz, declaring 50km either side of it to be a Military Exclusion Zone. 40% of world's traded oil (15 million barrels/day) travels through Hormuz. This is now blocked.
December 18th - Iranian speedboats begin attacks on oil tankers passing through Hormuz. Iran begins mining the Straits.

December 19th - USN and RN begin engagements with Iranian speedboats, sink Iranian midget sub. At this point, Iranian craft which retreat are not pursued closer than 8km from the Iranian coast.

December 20th - 30th - first Japan, then France, Italy and rest of EU institute fuel rationing. Air travel drops to one-twentieth normal level, food and manufactured products prices rise dramatically.

December 22nd - Iranian commandos destroy East-West Pipeline (Saudi pipeline allowing export of 5 million barrels/day through Yanbu port) at several points.

December 25th -  0530 local - USS Harry Truman approaches Hormuz to reinforce Nimitz. 9 HY-2 (Chinese Silkworm) missiles from Iran are fired at the carrier group, and all but one are shot down, but these are accompanied by two Yakhont (Russian SS-N-26) ASCM from Abu Masa Island, each of which strikes the USS Harry Truman. The first strikes the bow ruining the catapault system, the second penetrates through to the reactor room, starting a major fire which quickly spirals out of control.
0852 local - first air strikes from Nimitz on Abu Masa Island.
1031 local - Captain of USS Harry Truman issues order, "Abandon ship." Destroyer and cruiser escorts pick up survivors. Saudi and Qatari SAR teams assist.
1215 local - USS Harry Truman now steady at two-thirds sunk, stern-down.
1247 local - two more HY-2 missiles are sent towards battlegroup, shot down.
1249 local - salvo of torpedoes fired at USS Harry Truman from IRIN Kilo-class submarine.
1256 local - nuclear explosion on USS Harry Truman. Unclear whether explosion caused by nuclear torpedo from Iranian submarine, or by fire detonating US weapons aboard ship. 18,300 sailors and marines from USN, RAN, and Saudi and Qatari SAR teams killed in blast.

December 26th - US Congress in emergency session authorises Pres. to use "all necessary force, including nuclear, to remove the clear and present danger to the United States and freedom of the seas." The "Boxing Day Resolution." Effectively a declaration of war against Iran.

December 27th - India feeling hurt of oil rationing, and blaming Pakistan for "Iranian nuclear attack" on USN, and claiming Pakistani nuclear weapons technology as a "world danger", carries out two nuclear strikes against Pakistan, their nuclear reactor at Khusab and nuclear bomb airbase at outside Soghoda (home of 2.7 million people). Some 140,000 people killed in strikes, perhaps 14 million exposed to radiation and fallout over the next week.

December 28th - China warns India against any further attacks, mobilises airforce and navy, and troops on border with India. Pakistan sends nuclear missile to Gwalior (pop 290,000), destroying nuclear Mirage bombers there, and killing 90,000 people instantly. Chinese satellite EMP nuke explodes 320km above Delhi, destroying most Indian electronics and communications. USAF and USN begin conventional raids on Iran proper.

December 29th - US Congress passes amendment to Boxing Day Resolution, extending President's authority to use force to include China and Russia.

December 30th - USA launches anti-satellite missiles at Chinese EMP bomb satellites, destroying 5 of the remaining 11. China immediately detonates the remaining 6; 3 over continental USA, 1 over UK, 1 over France, and 1 over Australia. USA detonates EMP missiles over eastern China and Moscow (as a precaution).

December 31st - Russian submarines begin attacking US and EU shipping in North Atlantic. NATO treaty invoked, general mobilisation across EU, right down to KFOR.

January 1st - Indian nuclear attack on Islamabad. Chinese nuclear attack on Dehli, Mumbai. RN Illustrious taskforce in Faeroes destroys Russian Delta-IV  SSBN Novomoskovsk as it carries out missile drills, causing accidental nuclear explosion and destruction of HMS Illustrious and most accompanying ships.

January 2nd - Iranian naval attacks, hundreds of speedboats assaulting USS Nimitz group. Damage prevents  flights from deck, Nimitz retires from Persian Gulf; long-range bombing from Diego Garcia continues. Two divisions of Iranian Revolutionary Guard cross Iraqi border heading towards Koramshaar, engage combined British-Iraqi brigade.

January 3rd - US and UK land and naval forces start to feel pinch of ammunition, as EMP damage back home makes more production and shipping of materiel difficult and confused. Royal Navy fires cruise missiles at Russian naval base in Murmansk.

January 4th - 5th - events of these days are unclear. India and China exchange several nuclear missiles, as do USA and Russia/China, and France/UK and Russia. Nuclear attack centered on Watsonia (108 Signals Squadron, which carries out intercepts and translations of signals from across the world), Melbourne.

January 5th, evening - the First Nuclear World War is over.... you emerge from shelter...


So the campaign will begin January 5th.

Quote from: JimBobOzI'm not really worried about how high characters end up, more how high they begin. Players are sometimes tempted to create quite lopsided characters. "Oh I'll never fight, so drop down Brawn, pump up Brains!" or vice versa. Then later they find they want to do this other stuff and suck terribly at it.

That's strange.  This seems to be at odds with your previous statements about Fate.  
 
"The skill pyramid sucks!"
"Maybe, but it forces players to make more well-rounded characters"
"So what?  If players want to create unbalanced characters, let them."
 

QuoteI think 15d attributes and 6d skills seems good (remember, one of the seven attributes, Extranormal, won't be used at all). That allows the character to be average (2d) at 4/6 of the attributes, good at one (3d) and impressive (4d) at another. The 6d in skills, in combination with the attributes, will let them be amazing (4d+4d) at something if they want to, and professional at a couple of things. There'll be one or two Disadvantages which I'll strongly recommend they take (low Funds, Reluctant Killer, Loyal to Group) which will give them a few extra points for Advantages or more skill dice...

Again, this is based on my knowledge of Star Wars not d6 Adventure... but "Extranormal" (or Force Powers as they are in Star Wars) are assumed to begin at 0D regardless of whether you wish to allow them in your game or not.  So the system basically expects characters to typically have 3D per attribute.  Why are you tinkering with a system you've yet to actually use?

Fate was different because of the balance of players we had at that time, they were unlikely to max out on something. Here we have different players, some of whom are more likely to max out stuff.

Nonetheless, my experience with Fate was that when they did max out, it had the potential to mess up the game a lot. So I've learned from that.

That's why I've got a changed perspective this time.

Why mess with the system? Two reasons. Firstly, Adventure does not assume you'll have Extranormal 0d. It says that most people will have it at zilch, but they don't have to. They also note that unlike the other attributes, there's no maximum level for this one.

Secondly, the average of 3d (total 18d) is for "heroic" characters; an average of 2d (total 12d) is for "normal" characters. I want the campaign to begin with the feel of "grit", which means you shouldn't begin "heroic" level, but work towards it. However, you should have some good potential for that, so a total of 15d (average 2.5d) combined with some heroic use of the xp, the wild die and so on, that ought to achieve that.

When in doubt, I always prefer to start PCs lower-powered rather than higher-powered. If it turns out that they're too low-powered, no-one will complain if they get more xp to boost themselves up, but they'd certainly complain if we tried to take some away from them later, if they turned out to be too high-powered!

Quote from: JimBobOzSecondly, the average of 3d (total 18d) is for "heroic" characters; an average of 2d (total 12d) is for "normal" characters. I want the campaign to begin with the feel of "grit", which means you shouldn't begin "heroic" level, but work towards it. However, you should have some good potential for that, so a total of 15d (average 2.5d) combined with some heroic use of the xp, the wild die and so on, that ought to achieve that.

"Gritty" and "heroic" are not always mutually exclusive.  But if low powered is what you want, so be it.  I found that while 2D is touted as "average", in practice it was basically crap.  And be aware that as a general rule, characters wont change their attributes much (if at all).  Since skills default to the level of their associated attribute, this means that the characters will do quite a lot of things very badly.  And in Star Wars, a Strength of 2D means you're gonna go "splat" really easily (though, I understand the damage system in d6 Adventure is a bit different so it might be less of an issue.
 

QuoteWhen in doubt, I always prefer to start PCs lower-powered rather than higher-powered.

When in doubt, I tend to run a game as written.  Each to his own I suppose.

I've no idea what the Star Wars combat system was. Adventure offers two systems - wound levels, and Body Points. In terms of how long a character can keep fighting, they're basically the same - it's just a matter of style which you choose to use. Body Points are equal to Physique dice roll plus 20. So a Physique 2d guy would have 22-32+ Body Points (the + is there because one die will be a Wild Die, so there's a 1/6 chance of getting 33-36, and 1/36 chance of 37-42, and so on), with an average of 27.

By comparison, melee damage is based on half Strength dice, so 1d on average, with a knife doing +1d, a large axe +3d, and so on. Pistols do 3d-5d damage, usually 4d, and rifles do 5d-7d, average 6d. So Jo(e) Average can take something like 10 fist blows, 5 knife blows, 2 or 3 pistol shots or axe whacks, and 1 or 2 rifle shots, before they fall over. Assuming no armour, of course. A pound of C4 down their trousers will blow them to bits.  

Characters reaching zero Body Points keel over, but are still alive. If they receive first aid fairly quickly, they'll live, though they'll take some weeks to heal up. There are no specific rules for crippling of limbs and such, but you can target those, and I'd probably say that if you take half your Body Points or more in one go on some limb, you lose its function for a time, but surgery will recover the use. Still, if you stick your character's arm in a woodchipper then they'll lose it permanently

I think that I won't have NPCs have Wild Dies - that's for PCs only.

The campaign will be set in Australia, so that firearms will be reasonably unusual, and people who do have them won't be amazing shots - most people will be reluctant killers, unable to fire directly or stab at someone whose face they can see.

On the whole you can expect low lethality in my campaigns. You might note that in the campaigns I've run in the past two years, the only PC who perished was slain by another PC. Part of having a realistic-themed campaign is that most people don't want to kill you, or at least they don't want it for long, and can be calmed down. But plenty will want to hurt you or make you go away. The PCs can change this by their actions, of course - if you run around firing rocket-propelled grenades at people, that'll come back to you one way or another.

As to skill levels, of course 2d is not much good. So the average person with no particular skill in something will do badly in it. I'm happy with that, that seems quite reasonable. That lets specialists shine - 5d really means something. But 2d plus time taken plus no pressure, they'll still manage those professional-level tasks. Often when we talk about difficulties and so on in game systems, we forget about bonus and malus due to circumstances. Often, GMs never give bonuses, so that (for example) 75% skill looks really crappy - "what? I fail a quarter the time? Some professional!"

If I were the sort of person to run the game as written, I wouldn't be the sort of person who's written their own game, or has a whole swag of campaign material up online. So you take the good with the bad