Quote from: Dr RotwangIs there a good trick for throwing together NPC stats for d20 besides just faking it?

What do you consider to be faking it?

Seanchai

Quote from: SosthenesIt's a difficult tradeoff between options and simplicity. If you've got a game with only a handful of game stats and not many relations between them (i.e. level limits), then it's easy to whip up an instant NPC. Games like D20, Gurps or Shadowrun are a bit more difficult in this regard.

Spycraft 2.0 and Iron Heroes have some interesting options. The first uses a more generic character creation system for the mooks, the latter has classes  that are specifically tailored to the usual villain roles.

Yeah... the Spycraft 2.0 NPC rules try to put the details where you want them. Typically, PCs want/need details, but they are too much burden for the GM, so a simplified system is provided.

The Spycraft 2.0 NPC has the added bonus that it lets you auto-scale NPCs.

Quote from: SosthenesImprovising is good, but a simple numbers game without any backing up doesn't reward the players enough.

IME players get a sense of reward from overcoming difficult challenges-- the exact method of ho w those challenges are numerically derived rarely enters into it. I think it has more to do with the GM's perception of 'fair play,' or at least it does in my instance.

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Fudge was one of those breakthrough moments for me many, many years ago. Nowadays I'll stat up npc's thoroughly if time permits, but if pressed I'll quite happily eyeball some modifiers and run with it. 99% of the time the players don't even notice, they're far more concerned with their own powers and buffs to analyse the mathematical coherence of opponent X.

Quote from: DrewIME players get a sense of reward from overcoming difficult challenges-- the exact method of ho w those challenges are numerically derived rarely enters into it. I think it has more to do with the GM's perception of 'fair play,' or at least it does in my instance.

Well, I think we're entering the general "To fudge or not to fudge" territory here, which I don't want to work out more than necessary. The original post was about avoiding faking...

But still, I think there's a reason why players spend feats to increase their caster levels for dispels by a single point. Because that point matters. If it's just a random coincidence whether the spell on the sub-arch-villain is CL 8 or 12, then the effort of the players isn't worth as much as they thought it would be. I might be able to make it look like it would, but then I'm leaving the "game" aspect.

But that's useless philosophy. A more pragmatic aspect is that D&D 3E and lots of other D20 games are quite complex. I'd say that a good improvised encounter is still possible, even when you stick to the rules. Consistently fudging in the same range is harder to do. And it's much more easy for the players to catch their DM. There's simply not a big benefit in fudging.

Quote from: DrewIME players get a sense of reward from overcoming difficult challenges-- the exact method of ho w those challenges are numerically derived rarely enters into it. I think it has more to do with the GM's perception of 'fair play,' or at least it does in my instance.

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Fudge was one of those breakthrough moments for me many, many years ago. Nowadays I'll stat up npc's thoroughly if time permits, but if pressed I'll quite happily eyeball some modifiers and run with it. 99% of the time the players don't even notice, they're far more concerned with their own powers and buffs to analyse the mathematical coherence of opponent X.

This is true.  And I've never seen it be an issue in actual play.

I'm result oriented.  The players ultimately want to be challenged and feel immersed, or whatever.  How I construct the challenge is less important than having a fair and interesting one.

Quote from: SosthenesA more pragmatic aspect is that D&D 3E and lots of other D20 games are quite complex. I'd say that a good improvised encounter is still possible, even when you stick to the rules. Consistently fudging in the same range is harder to do. And it's much more easy for the players to catch their DM. There's simply not a big benefit in fudging.

I agree in principle, but if it comes down to a choice between numerically winging it or not playing for lack of exactitude then I'll take the play option every time. I''m in no way advocating the consistent invention of shit on the fly-- you're bang on the money about d20's complexities and systemic rewards. It's just that I've found a certain loosening of one's expectations of how the game should play out behind the screen- backed with the requisite system knowledge to make informed calls -provides a much faster and more dynamic play environment than one that demands the crossing every 'i' and dotting of every 't'.

Okay, I can agree with that. Most of the games I've been running recently are quite improvised. I have some NPCs, but they're obviously not the only people running around. And when you're not too fond of monsters, you'll have to come up with lots of NPCs on the fly. But once you have a good understanding of the game system, there's actually not much fudging involved. I just try to keep the important stuff on a fair level, as that's the point when I like a little bit of semi-competitive gaming to happen. I handle stuff a bit different in e.g. Star Wars D6...

But let's get something productive into play: One bit of fudging I'm regurarly doing was actually suggested in Unearthed Arcana. Enemy spellcasters are a bit difficult to handle and most of them are either very, very intelligent and informed or just in tune with the gods themselves.

That's why I usually keep one or two spell slots empty and use them spontaneously. Allows a mere mortal to simulate the archpriest of Shrr'Frzlbrmpft.

Another item that should be pretty obvious: Monsters are easier to do than humanoids. If you're using them often, I recommend copying the size table in the back of the monster manual, that way you can easily create bigger and badder monsters by increasing the hit dice. Just add some hit points, increase the attacks somewhat and you're set.

Also, most monsters have feats they don't use that much. Who cares if the spot and listen skills are a bit low? Just scratch Alertness and but something more interesting in there and with minimal effort you have a monster that can use different tactics. Then change the appearance a bit and the players will never know what hit them.

Also remember: The CR of a monster hardly changes if you give it a decent magical item. In a more magical world, that can be used quite often. Just keep a watch out for the wealth level of the PCs...

Quote from: RedFoxThis is true.  And I've never seen it be an issue in actual play.

I'm result oriented.  The players ultimately want to be challenged and feel immersed, or whatever.  How I construct the challenge is less important than having a fair and interesting one.

In a nutshell.

I remember running an AD&D campaign in my teens, when following the letter of the rules was part-and-parcel of my outlook. With the aid of the Wilderness Survival Guide's arcane and convoluted weather generation system I was spending anything up to 10 minutes per game day figuring out air moisture ratios and the chance of precipitation. The players were almost as bored as I was, but for some reason I just couldn't stop.

Eventually camel's back broke under the haywain of straw I'd piled on. I chucked the book away in disgust, called in a terrific lightning storm and had the players fight off a werewolf attack from a ruined tower they were sheltering in. I just eyeballed the monsters attack bonuses, hit points and the like. Instantly everyone was engaged, and what was a dull, workmanlike (yet mechanically sound) campaign became a tense rollercoaster of hiding, fighting and paranoia. I learned that day that excitement and challenge trumps pretty much everything else, and have never looked back.

Quote from: SeanchaiWhat do you consider to be faking it?

Seanchai

"Okay, dude's got a +2 for Strength and a +1 Dex.  +5 melee attack, and that's a saber, 1d10+2. Saves are...I dunno, F +5, Ref +3, Will +2 or whatever.  Say he's 3rd level so he has...I dunno, 10+10 = 20 hp. Dodge DV is 14 and parry DV is 16 or something."

For Conan, I just recommend making some quick foes. The good thing about the game is what's now your big badass will still be usable as a mook later on.

And now for the dangerous part: Conan can be pretty racist at times. Might as well use that. Don't create characters according to their tactics, create some cliched charactes according to their point of origin. Zamoran knife fighters, Gundermen with pikes, savage pictish axe-wielders. In a Conan game, those never get old...

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!"Okay, dude's got a +2 for Strength and a +1 Dex.  +5 melee attack, and that's a saber, 1d10+2. Saves are...I dunno, F +5, Ref +3, Will +2 or whatever.  Say he's 3rd level so he has...I dunno, 10+10 = 20 hp. Dodge DV is 14 and parry DV is 16 or something."

Gotcha.

In that case, my advice isn't really different than the other advice you've been given. I don't worry about attributes, I look at bonuses. I give folks their level in professional or class skills should those skills come up. In skills other than those, I decide what rank to give them based on concept. For Feats, I stick to ones I know and that are common anyway.

For example, I need a thug. He's a thug, so he has a +1 Str and +1 Con. He's 3rd level. I can't remember if a Warrior gets d8 Hit Dice, but 15 Hit Points sounds good. He doesn't really need any class skills. He could easily have a +3Intimidate. His Feats will be Improved Initiative and Power Attack.

If the course of play his Spot becomes an issue, I'll give him a +1 Spot. He's a thug, so spotting things ain't his strong suit. But he might have a bit of that skill.

That's how I handle stuff for NPCs.

Seanchai

I regularly fake it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HalfjackGrab the generic NPC stats for a 3rd level warrior from the GM Guide and describe him however you want him to look.  No one will ever suspect there's a difference between what you describe and what the stats say.

Best advice said on an RPG forum.

Yeah, but I'm still shamed.

If you use a laptop in play, you can have Jamis' Buck's NPC generator running, and pop out NPC stats in 10 seconds.