Quote from: RedFoxGaming isn't a religion, and there are no absolute truths.

Gee, thanks for joining us, Confucious.

Redfox: That's cool, what other skills are on your hitlist? I'm thinking this thread will benefit by oipening it up to general D&D skill reform.

Pseudoephedrine: I would disagree on Sleight of Hand; if you're a rogue who picks pockets it does get used. However, I'm more than open to exploring alternate means of providing pickpocketry. Your proposal for solving skill bloat with Profession is intriguing. WHat other skills do you see being covered by Mountebank (I so want that prof just for the name!) or Gambler, to use the examples you mentioned? And can you think of any other profession that would cover Use Rope, for the wannabe Boy Scout who's also a landlubber? I'm drawing a blank.

Folding rope use while climbing into Climb skill is elegant. In fact, that could be a good guideline for collapsing unwanted skills: collapse them when possible into the skill they synergize with. Nice rule of thumb anyway.

I'm not sure what I think of Appraise. . .I see your piint about infrequent use, but it still seems like it should be there. No other skill covers it, except Craft, and not all appraisers are crafters. And in theory a lot of mileage could be got out of Appraise, if, for instance, not all merchants are honest and one's own skill was essential in rooting out fraud. I imagine there must be groups that do this, and it sounds like the most fun way to run the skill.

T-Willard

Trust me, I've considered all that. if you read through the posts, you'll see that I as well as a couple of others have described the best way to handle that--through situational modifiers. If you're not visible then no eyesight bonus to the Noticer. If you can't be heard, then no hearing bonus, or no maybe check at all if you'r behind the guy. If the task would be more or less difficult due to whatever sensory factory, there's good ol' +2/-2.

Sure, the odd situation might call for a tricky ruling, but I think it's worth it. Hearing may be different from seeing, but that level of detail in game mechanics doesn't interest me. You might as well add "Smell," "Taste" and "Feel" to the list. (Heh, I can just imagine all the use that Feel would get. . .and of course Smell and Taste would get a Synergy bonus!:D )

I'm comfortable with the change; none of the objections so far have been convincing.

Peace,
-Joel

Others on the list?

I'd be mighty tempted to collapse Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Spellcraft, and possibly even Concentration together into a single skill.

I'd roll Sense Motive into Spot (or the new "Notice" skill).

Handle Animal would be folded into Ride and Survival, depending on whether the animal was a mount.

Decipher Script would be rolled into Speak Language.

I can understand if ya'all want to combine spot/listen and hide/MS, but I still don't personally see the need. I like them the way they are for DnD. I don't feel they are a waste of space or useless.

Quote from: MelinglorPseudoephedrine: I would disagree on Sleight of Hand; if you're a rogue who picks pockets it does get used. However, I'm more than open to exploring alternate means of providing pickpocketry. Your proposal for solving skill bloat with Profession is intriguing. WHat other skills do you see being covered by Mountebank (I so want that prof just for the name!) or Gambler, to use the examples you mentioned? And can you think of any other profession that would cover Use Rope, for the wannabe Boy Scout who's also a landlubber? I'm drawing a blank.

Craft (Traps) seems like it would cover knots, and it's already in the game as a common skill for kobolds. Heck if knots play such an important role in game, a few ranks outright in Craft (Knots) wouldn't be out of place.

For Profession (Gambling), I think sleight of hand, calculating odds, figuring out the rules to games (for example, a chess puzzle in a dungeon) and playing games of skill and chance should all fall under it. We have a PC shooting for Fatespinner right now who's got ranks in Profession (Gambling) and those are more or less exactly what he does with the skill.

Mountebank might roll in sleight of hand with synergy bonuses to spellcraft checks to spot illusions and to perform checks. It covers forms of performance like magic tricks otherwise not covered by Perform.

QuoteFolding rope use while climbing into Climb skill is elegant. In fact, that could be a good guideline for collapsing unwanted skills: collapse them when possible into the skill they synergize with. Nice rule of thumb anyway.

Hah, thanks. In my experience, there are two situations where knots become important to PCs. One is climbing, and the other is tying up prisoners. I think the former is properly part of the climb skill, while the latter is best represented outside the skill system.

QuoteI'm not sure what I think of Appraise. . .I see your piint about infrequent use, but it still seems like it should be there. No other skill covers it, except Craft, and not all appraisers are crafters. And in theory a lot of mileage could be got out of Appraise, if, for instance, not all merchants are honest and one's own skill was essential in rooting out fraud. I imagine there must be groups that do this, and it sounds like the most fun way to run the skill.

Profession (Merchant), which would also cover haggling and perhaps give a synergy bonus to Knowledge (Local). As it stands, Profession is one of the least important skills to PCs because it doesn't have any synergy bonuses, nor is it essential to anything the PCs do. I'd rather not replace every skill with Profession (blah), but I think making them more useful by allowing five ranks to give a synergy bonus to one other skill of the PC's choice would make them a relatively good investment.

Quote from: SigmundI can understand if ya'all want to combine spot/listen and hide/MS, but I still don't personally see the need. I like them the way they are for DnD. I don't feel they are a waste of space or useless.

That's cool.  I don't think it's necessary for me.  I can (and do) play and run games with the full skill-set.  But I'm awful tempted to trim it down some for simplicity's sake, because it does bug me a bit.