A fellow on ENWorld asked if any OGL supplements offered expansions to the current ability scores. His major beef was that each of the six scores covered areas that didn't necessarily correlate. His post inspired me, and I concocted something fast and dirty to pitch to him. I thought I'd post it here to see what you folks thought.
Take the six core abilities. Each now has two subabilities.
Strength: muscle, power.
Dexterity: agility, co-ordination.
Constitution: toughness, stamina.
Intelligence: logic, memory.
Wisdom: willpower, perception.
Charisma: looks, personality.
The ability score modifier for the ability is divided between these two subabilities. For example, a character with an INT of 18 might have a +3 logic modifier and a +1 memory modifier. If her CON was 15, she might have a +2 toughness modifier and a +2 stamina modifier. I could forsee allowing subabilities to have penalties so long as the two subability modifiers added up to the ability modifier (for example, a WIS 11 could have a -1 willpower and +1 perception); however, such a thing would have to be carefully restricted to prevent ridiculous min/maxing.
Skills, saves, and combat rolls would have to be reassigned to subability modifiers. Knowledge skills would be functions of memory, ranged attacks would be a function of co-ordination, etc. One thing I would consider is allowing some checks to use more than one subability modifier at a time. For example, Intimidate is equally a function of a character's personality, toughness, and power. Jump is a combination of agility and power (sometimes requiring co-ordination, too). Melee attacks are a combination of co-ordination and power. So, while all modifiers might seem like they are getting lower by splitting them between subabilities, they are actually gaining further potential through logical combinations.
Not all of these sub-categories make sense to me. Strength, for example, is pretty much Strength. Constitution likewise.
I agree that Wisdom combines Perception and Willpower in an odd manner (and calls it something completely unrelated to both - I mean... Wisdom??). And Charisma seems to gather into its domain the subabilities of Appeal, Charm, and Presence (all of which seem different to me). However, it's my opinion this was done on purpose, and defines an antiquated method of role-playing game understanding/design.
For example: Strength is very narrow in its application, but also extremely helpful to the character (in the form of combat, carrying capacity, etc.) In order to prevent the existence of a dozen less-oft-used abilities, the wise old creators of the game categorized lesser-used abilities into what we now have. However, a lot can be said for the fact that the game began as a tactical wargame. In such a wargame, separating Appearance from Charm from Presence seemed unnecessary. Today that's not so.
The problem with separating out subabilities is that they will no longer carry the same weight they previously carried within the scope of the rules. In addition, if you start getting too specific, then I start to wonder where you stop in specificity. Perception as a sub-ability or new ability? Is it different from Instinct, Insight or magical Awareness? What about the fact that Perception actually has several subabilities relating to individual senses? Is Appeal its own subability? What about the fact that active use of Appeal is quite different than just being appealing? Should that break down into Seductiveness and Attractiveness? Likewise Dexterity logically breaks down into Agility and Coordination (gross motor skills versus fine motor skills - sounds good to me), but how do I know about a character's general Grace? Flexibility? Balance?
I don't know. Despite the fact that the game balance was designed around a flawed concept, I think the system works fine. The generality of the attributes (other than the ones whose roles are very specific, such as Strength, and Constitution) is intentionally intrinsic to the very delicate game balance that is D&D. I say let it be.
They did this in S|
Personally, you could probably give everyone an extra 4 ability points and get the same end result.
Quote from: RoudiA fellow on ENWorld asked if any OGL supplements offered expansions to the current ability scores. His major beef was that each of the six scores covered areas that didn't necessarily correlate. His post inspired me, and I concocted something fast and dirty to pitch to him. I thought I'd post it here to see what you folks thought.
Take the six core abilities. Each now has two subabilities.
Strength: muscle, power.
Dexterity: agility, co-ordination.
Constitution: toughness, stamina.
Intelligence: logic, memory.
Wisdom: willpower, perception.
Charisma: looks, personality.
I always wanted to try a 9 ability matrix that looked something like this...
PHYSICAL MENTAL SOCIAL
POWER Strength Intelligence Esteem
FINESSE Dexterity Wits Guile
ENDURANCE Stamina Willpower Composure
PHY MEN SOC
POW Str Int Est
FIN Dex Wit Gui
END Sta Wil Com...but never quite got around to it.
That 9-ability matrix looks mighty nifty.
Quote from: CleanCutRogueNot all of these sub-categories make sense to me. Strength, for example, is pretty much Strength. Constitution likewise.
I'd agree with this. Actually, Strength and Constitution seem like they should be the sub-abilities of a larger ability, like Physique or something like that.
And I'm not sure I understand the difference between Muscle and Power in the OPs divide.
Quote from: RoudiThat 9-ability matrix looks mighty nifty.
One of the things I kind of like about it is that you can come up with some funk ability generation methods. For example, instead of rolling for each of the nine stats, roll for the six stats along the two axes and the nine abilities in the matrix are the sum of the modifiers from the two pertinent stats along the axes. Like so...
Roll 1: 6, [1], 1, 6 =
13.
Roll 2: 6, 6, 6, [3] =
18.
Roll 3: 4, [2], 6, 5 =
15.
Roll 4: 6, 5, 6, [1] =
17.
Roll 5: [2], 2, 6, 6 =
14.
Roll 6: 4, 2, 3, [1] =
9.
PHY 13 MEN 18 SOC 15
POW 17 Str +4 Int +7 Est +5
FIN 14 Dex +3 Wit +6 Gui +4
END 9 Sta +0 Wil +3 Com +1
Quote from: CyclotronI always wanted to try a 9 ability matrix that looked something like this...
PHYSICAL MENTAL SOCIAL
POWER Strength Intelligence Esteem
FINESSE Dexterity Wits Guile
ENDURANCE Stamina Willpower Composure
PHY MEN SOC
POW Str Int Est
FIN Dex Wit Gui
END Sta Wil Com
...but never quite got around to it.
Not that dissimilar to how DC Heroes did their stats. Three sets of stats (physical, mental, spiritual), each with a attack stat, an effect stat, and a stat to determine how much you can withstand in that category (i.e. Dexterity was the offensive stat for physical attacks, Strength was the effect stat, and Body to determine how physical damage you could take). Of course, the scale (being logorithmic) for the stats was completely different, but personally anything that reminds me of one of my favorite RPG systems ever can't be a bad thing.
The ability matrix reminds me of Dangerous Journeys. DJ had three "top-level" stats: Physical, Mental, and Spiritual. Each of these had two sub-stats - Physical had Muscular and Neural, Mental had Mnemonic and Reasoning, and Spiritual had Metaphysical and Psychic. Each of THESE in turn had three sub-sub-stats: Power, Speed, and Capacity. Capacity mostly served as a cap on how high the other two could be increased. The stats were summed from the bottom up, so Physical Muscular was equal to PMPow+PMSpd+PMCap, and Physical was equal to Physical Muscular + Physical Neural.
The stat names were a little clunky, since DJ tried very hard to avoid using common RPG terms (like "Strength" or "skills"), in order to avoid being sued by TSR. Fat lot of good THAT did them...
WoD is also like that but with 3 abilities for each trait. Powers and Perils also had 10 abilities: Strength, Stamina, Dexterity, Agility, Intelligence, Will, Eloquence, Empathy, Constitution, Appearance
That in turn reminds me of Ars Magica, which has eight stats divided into pairs:
Intelligence - Perception
Strength - Stamina
Dexterity - Quickness
Presence - Communication
In earlier editions, you rolled stats by rolling d10-d10 four times, assigning each roll to one pair. You then split up the roll as evenly as possible (so if you assigned +3 to Strength/Stamina, one would be +2 and the other +1). There were advantages ("virtues") one could take to boost a stat, which still made things like Int +2/Per -3 possible. I believe they've moved away from this whole thing lately, though.
Quote from: DackeThat in turn reminds me of Ars Magica, which has eight stats divided into pairs:
Intelligence - Perception
Strength - Stamina
Dexterity - Quickness
Presence - Communication
In earlier editions, you rolled stats by rolling d10-d10 four times, assigning each roll to one pair. You then split up the roll as evenly as possible (so if you assigned +3 to Strength/Stamina, one would be +2 and the other +1). There were advantages ("virtues") one could take to boost a stat, which still made things like Int +2/Per -3 possible. I believe they've moved away from this whole thing lately, though.
Oh god I remember that now....:imsorry: :confused:
I'm not saying this to be a jerk or an OGL-cop or anything. But I think it's worth pointing out that the abilities cannot be extended in this way under the d20 License.
"No Covered Product may change or extend the definition of any Defined Game Term as enumerated in this Guide." -- d20 SYSTEM TRADEMARK GUIDE VERSION 5.0 (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/d20Guidev5.rtf)
Just so you know.
Cheers,
Roger
The question would be, therefore, whether defining subabilities counts as extending the current definition of abilities.
Quote from: RogerI'm not saying this to be a jerk or an OGL-cop or anything. But I think it's worth pointing out that the abilities cannot be extended in this way under the d20 License.
Sure, but that's only if you want to use the D20 trademark... If you're just going OGL, then it's fair game, if I remember correctly.
Besides...
Quote from: Roger"No Covered Product may change or extend the definition of any Defined Game Term as enumerated in this Guide." -- d20 SYSTEM TRADEMARK GUIDE VERSION 5.0 (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/d20Guidev5.rtf)
That doesn't mean you can't come up with new Game Terms, or simply ignore the old ones... You just can't change the ones that have already been defined.
D20 Traveller, for example, is an OGL game using the D20 trademark license. It has a grand total of 9 abilities: The original six, plus Education (Edu), Social Standing (Soc) and Psionic Strength (Psi).
So, changing my suggestion above to...
PHYSICAL MENTAL SOCIAL
POWER Strength Intelligence Charisma
FINESSE Dexterity Wits Guile
ENDURANCE Constitution Wisdom Esteem...would keep it entirely within the D20 license.
So because I feel like playing a Troll.
How does expanding/breaking down the stock D20 stat block actually improve the game? It adds some micromanagement but I don't see how it's actually going to improve anything. If it's not improving things then what's the point.
Don't take this to mean that I'm bashing the presented stat blocks, but I just fail to see anyway that using this sort of break down in D20 is going to make any real tangible difference. There is simpley to much other baggage in D20 that this sort of change is pointless and wasted. I remember in the SkiLLz and Powers book when they did this, it just allowed for even more min/maxing and stat dumping to create the uber roxxor characters.
Kryyst, I'd suggest that that topic is better off in its own thread -- it doesn't really fall under the subject "Expanding Ability Scores."
Everyone else: Good points about d20, etc etc.
In terms of purely new ability scores, yeah, d20 Traveller is a good example, as is d20 Call of Cthulhu (which gives us Sanity.)
Cheers,
Roger
Quote from: RogerKryyst, I'd suggest that that topic is better off in its own thread -- it doesn't really fall under the subject "Expanding Ability Scores."
I think it's perfectly on topic. "Why would you want to expand ability scores" is certainly relevent to "Expanding Ability Scores."
Quote from: CyclotronSure, but that's only if you want to use the D20 trademark... If you're just going OGL, then it's fair game, if I remember correctly.
Yeah, World of Warcraft changes several of the names. Instead of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, they have Strength, Agility, Stamina, Intellect, Spirit, and Charisma.
Quote from: MaddmanI think it's perfectly on topic. "Why would you want to expand ability scores" is certainly relevent to "Expanding Ability Scores."
Sure. "Expanding/breaking down the stock D20 stat block", especially now that WotC is in the middle of revising the stat block format, is less relevant, I would suggest.
Cheers,
Roger
Quote from: RogerKryyst, I'd suggest that that topic is better off in its own thread -- it doesn't really fall under the subject "Expanding Ability Scores."
Everyone else: Good points about d20, etc etc.
In terms of purely new ability scores, yeah, d20 Traveller is a good example, as is d20 Call of Cthulhu (which gives us Sanity.)
Cheers,
Roger
???? How is what I said not on topic. It's totally relevant to everything that's been said.
Quote from: RogerSure. "Expanding/breaking down the stock D20 stat block", especially now that WotC is in the middle of revising the stat block format, is less relevant, I would suggest.
Cheers,
Roger
Are you even reading the same messages as other people?
Quote from: kryystHow does expanding/breaking down the stock D20 stat block actually improve the game?
That's the second sentence of the post I was replying to.
Since everyone else seems perfectly happy with discussing the stat block in this thread, I'll withdraw my suggestion.
Cheers,
Roger
Quote from: kryystHow does expanding/breaking down the stock D20 stat block actually improve the game?
It doesn't, always.
But the standard D&D abilities aren't perfect. There's some thing that frankly don't always make sense. My idea was exactly to split up each of the six abilities (I personally think that's a bit silly), but to add a few extra abilities, and then categorize them in a way that makes a little more sense. The trouble is, creating a new set of abilities requires you to revamp almost everything else from the game... Classes, feats, skills, PrCs, you name it... And that's the main reason I never bothered with the project. It just isn't worth the time and effort required at this point. Though, someday I might get around to it.
On the other hand, adding in a few extra abilities also allows you to customize the game for a particular genre or setting... Like the examples with Traveller, Call of Cthulu or World of Warcraft.
And sometimes, it just suits a GM's style better.
It's not always better, but it does generate a differetn style of play, to be certain.
Quote from: RogerSince everyone else seems perfectly happy with discussing the stat block in this thread, I'll withdraw my suggestion.
I think Kryyst mis-wrote... He wrote "stat block" when I think he really meant "ability array" or something similar.
Correct me, if I'm wrong, Kryyst.
Quote from: CyclotronI think Kryyst mis-wrote... He wrote "stat block" when I think he really meant "ability array" or something similar.
Correct me, if I'm wrong, Kryyst.
Yes I meant ability array, I forgot that D&D has got a specific deffinition of what 'stat block' means. I've always just used the term interchangably as it's pretty common in most games to call your abilities your stats. Also given the context that I brought it up in it seemed fairly obvious. However Roger, if it wasn't obvious to you then well, whatever.
Quote from: CyclotronIt doesn't, always.
But the standard D&D abilities aren't perfect. There's some thing that frankly don't always make sense. My idea was exactly to split up each of the six abilities (I personally think that's a bit silly), but to add a few extra abilities, and then categorize them in a way that makes a little more sense. The trouble is, creating a new set of abilities requires you to revamp almost everything else from the game... Classes, feats, skills, PrCs, you name it... And that's the main reason I never bothered with the project. It just isn't worth the time and effort required at this point. Though, someday I might get around to it.
That is more or less what I was saying. Splitting the abilities to have a more minute version of each, yet not really having it impact the game is pretty pointless. If you want to split your abilities so that they are meaningfull it requires more then just making up some new names, skills, feats, monster stat blocks, equipment, spells, etc.... all are impacted at that level. If your goal is to actually improve it you aren't going to do that by just splitting the abilities.
QuoteOn the other hand, adding in a few extra abilities also allows you to customize the game for a particular genre or setting... Like the examples with Traveller, Call of Cthulu or World of Warcraft.
Though those additions are more minor rules unto themselves and not really the same thing.
Quote from: kryystYes I meant ability array, I forgot that D&D has got a specific deffinition of what 'stat block' means. I've always just used the term interchangably as it's pretty common in most games to call your abilities your stats. Also given the context that I brought it up in it seemed fairly obvious. However Roger, if it wasn't obvious to you then well, whatever.
You aren't the only one kryyst. I wasn't sure what Roger was on about either. :)
I don't see the point in expanding the "ability array"... but if you're going to do it, do it because it fits a specific genre you're trying to develop. Make it suit the mood of the campaign. Don't do it just to try to make an uber-comprehensive attribute set - because everyone's definition of what is exhaustive differs. You'll always have someone trying to do what you're doing to D&D.
For example... if education plays a huge role in your game (it takes place in the city, for example), add Education as an ability score, having it's modifier apply to scholarly pursuits and to even some social interactions... if that's appropriate for your game.
I played in a game where the DM gave a separate attribute called Lawfulness. In his campaign, the battle for law and chaos was paramount. The time of your birth told how much order your body had, or how much anarchy. He had a few uses for it - but basically it added flavor.
On the old Nothingland, I did quite a bit of tinkering with ability scores.
(I have this vapourware project I pull out from time to time: designing an RPG system from the ground up. Not that Forge "meaningful gaming" bullshit, mind you: my design is strictly mechanics-based. What I want is a better system, not soap opera shit.)
I ended up with five ability scores: Body (physical attributes), Grace (charisma), Life (willpower and will to live), Mind (mental attributes), and Sense (perception and hand-eye coordination). They cover pretty much everything I want out of a set of ability scores. :)
I've likewise thought of something similar in nature to what Roudi is suggesting, but I also had another category added (this was before d20 Modern, so bear with me): Karma, which was divided into two sub-sections: Luck and Experience.
Luck allowed you to affect the outcome of a single circumstance through the use of Hero Points (think of over-powered Action Points). The amount you "generated" per session was based off your score.
Experience allowed you to increase the amount of experience you gained (or lost) each time you gained generic experience (taken from various video games). However, this quickly lead to becoming a "must-have" stat. I was in the process of rewritting this, when I discovered a new mistress - d20 Modern.
Anyway, I didn't run it based on the modifiers - rather on the sum of the score (i.e. if you had a 14 in Intelligence, you could break it down by any amount between the two sub-sections, so long as the sum equaled 14). While I can understand the desire to do this (it came about as a result from someone who wanted to be really good at ranged attacks, but not defense - don't ask), I'm not sure I ended up liking what I had came up with.
Roudi's idea makes more sense to me, just for the record, using the modifier as the "determining" factor.
Just my thoughts on the subject. Also, for the record, I never played any other edition of D&D, and was unaware that this idea existed in any edition of it. What was that book called again?
Peterson
This spliting of ability scores was done in AD&D 2nd Editon in the Players Option: Skills and Powers book.
Strength: Stamina, Muscle
Dexterity: Aim, Balance
Constitution: Health, Fitness
Intelligence: Reason, Knowledge
Wisdom: Intuition, Willpower
Charisma: Leadership, Appearance
Quote from: EmryysThis spliting of ability scores was done in AD&D 2nd Editon in the Players Option: Skills and Powers book.
And boy, was it open to abuse...
QuoteStrength: Stamina, Muscle
Stamina: Weight allowance.
Muscle: attack, damage, open doors, bend bars, max press.
QuoteDexterity: Aim, Balance
Somewhat balanced... Aim: Ranged attacks. Balance: AC, I think surprise.
QuoteConstitution: Health, Fitness
Health: System shock, Resurrection survival (I might be wrong on one of these).
Fitness: hp.
QuoteIntelligence: Reason, Knowledge
Reason: Some wizard-only stuff.
Knowledge: Some other wizard-only stuff and proficiencies.
QuoteWisdom: Intuition, Willpower
Intuition: Cleric spellcasting stuff.
Willpower: Saves vs. magic.
QuoteCharisma: Leadership, Appearance
Leadership: Henchmen stuff.
Appearance: Reaction modifier.
For many of these, it was sort of a no-brainer which one to increase at the expense of the other (Fitness, Knowledge, Willpower). Also, given the way you needed high stats in 2e to get any benefit, they were very easy to manipulate ("Oh, I rolled a 14 for Con. That's no extra hp, and system shock 88%. I guess I'll increase Fitness to 16 and drop Health to 12, for +2 hp and SS 80% instead.")
With Skills & Powers, I fiddled with the stats to get them a little more balanced (though there wasn't much one could do to balance Strength's subabilities) and I used the OD&D Rules Cyclopedia ability score bonuses (13-15 = +1, 16-17 = +2, 18-19 = +3, etc.). In the end, it was still munchkiny but, more importantly, it didn't really add any fun to the game. So when 3e came out, I happily dumped it. :)