So because I feel like playing a Troll.

How does expanding/breaking down the stock D20 stat block actually improve the game?   It adds some micromanagement but I don't see how it's actually going to improve anything.  If it's not improving things then what's the point.

Don't take this to mean that I'm bashing the presented stat blocks, but I just fail to see anyway that using this sort of break down in D20 is going to make any real tangible difference.  There is simpley to much other baggage in D20 that this sort of change is pointless and wasted.  I remember in the SkiLLz and Powers book when they did this, it just allowed for even more min/maxing and stat dumping to create the uber roxxor characters.

Kryyst, I'd suggest that that topic is better off in its own thread -- it doesn't really fall under the subject "Expanding Ability Scores."

Everyone else:  Good points about d20, etc etc.

In terms of purely new ability scores, yeah, d20 Traveller is a good example, as is d20 Call of Cthulhu (which gives us Sanity.)



Cheers,
Roger

Quote from: RogerKryyst, I'd suggest that that topic is better off in its own thread -- it doesn't really fall under the subject "Expanding Ability Scores."

I think it's perfectly on topic.  "Why would you want to expand ability scores" is certainly relevent to "Expanding Ability Scores."

Quote from: CyclotronSure, but that's only if you want to use the D20 trademark... If you're just going OGL, then it's fair game, if I remember correctly.

Yeah, World of Warcraft changes several of the names.  Instead of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, they have Strength, Agility, Stamina, Intellect, Spirit, and Charisma.

Quote from: MaddmanI think it's perfectly on topic.  "Why would you want to expand ability scores" is certainly relevent to "Expanding Ability Scores."

Sure.  "Expanding/breaking down the stock D20 stat block", especially now that WotC is in the middle of revising the stat block format, is less relevant, I would suggest.


Cheers,
Roger

Quote from: RogerKryyst, I'd suggest that that topic is better off in its own thread -- it doesn't really fall under the subject "Expanding Ability Scores."

Everyone else:  Good points about d20, etc etc.

In terms of purely new ability scores, yeah, d20 Traveller is a good example, as is d20 Call of Cthulhu (which gives us Sanity.)



Cheers,
Roger

? How is what I said not on topic.  It's totally relevant to everything that's been said.

Quote from: RogerSure.  "Expanding/breaking down the stock D20 stat block", especially now that WotC is in the middle of revising the stat block format, is less relevant, I would suggest.


Cheers,
Roger

Are you even reading the same messages as other people?

Quote from: kryystHow does expanding/breaking down the stock D20 stat block actually improve the game?

That's the second sentence of the post I was replying to.

Since everyone else seems perfectly happy with discussing the stat block in this thread, I'll withdraw my suggestion.


Cheers,
Roger

Quote from: kryystHow does expanding/breaking down the stock D20 stat block actually improve the game?

It doesn't, always.

But the standard D&D abilities aren't perfect.  There's some thing that frankly don't always make sense.  My idea was exactly to split up each of the six abilities (I personally think that's a bit silly), but to add a few extra abilities, and then categorize them in a way that makes a little more sense.  The trouble is, creating a new set of abilities requires you to revamp almost everything else from the game...  Classes, feats, skills, PrCs, you name it...  And that's the main reason I never bothered with the project. It just isn't worth the time and effort required at this point.  Though, someday I might get around to it.

On the other hand, adding in a few extra abilities also allows you to customize the game for a particular genre or setting...  Like the examples with Traveller, Call of Cthulu or World of Warcraft.

And sometimes, it just suits a GM's style better.

It's not always better, but it does generate a differetn style of play, to be certain.

Quote from: RogerSince everyone else seems perfectly happy with discussing the stat block in this thread, I'll withdraw my suggestion.

I think Kryyst mis-wrote...  He wrote "stat block" when I think he really meant "ability array" or something similar.

Correct me, if I'm wrong, Kryyst.

Quote from: CyclotronI think Kryyst mis-wrote...  He wrote "stat block" when I think he really meant "ability array" or something similar.

Correct me, if I'm wrong, Kryyst.

Yes I meant ability array, I forgot that D&D has got a specific deffinition of what 'stat block' means.  I've always just used the term interchangably as it's pretty common in most games to call your abilities your stats.  Also given the context that I brought it up in it seemed fairly obvious.    However Roger, if it wasn't obvious to you then well, whatever.

Quote from: CyclotronIt doesn't, always.

But the standard D&D abilities aren't perfect.  There's some thing that frankly don't always make sense.  My idea was exactly to split up each of the six abilities (I personally think that's a bit silly), but to add a few extra abilities, and then categorize them in a way that makes a little more sense.  The trouble is, creating a new set of abilities requires you to revamp almost everything else from the game...  Classes, feats, skills, PrCs, you name it...  And that's the main reason I never bothered with the project. It just isn't worth the time and effort required at this point.  Though, someday I might get around to it.

That is more or less what I was saying.  Splitting the abilities to have a more minute version of each, yet not really having it impact the game is pretty pointless.  If you want to split your abilities so that they are meaningfull it requires more then just making up some new names, skills, feats, monster stat blocks, equipment, spells, etc.... all are impacted at that level.  If your goal is to actually improve it  you aren't going to do that by just splitting the abilities.

QuoteOn the other hand, adding in a few extra abilities also allows you to customize the game for a particular genre or setting...  Like the examples with Traveller, Call of Cthulu or World of Warcraft.

Though those additions are more minor rules unto themselves and not really the same thing.

Quote from: kryystYes I meant ability array, I forgot that D&D has got a specific deffinition of what 'stat block' means.  I've always just used the term interchangably as it's pretty common in most games to call your abilities your stats.  Also given the context that I brought it up in it seemed fairly obvious.    However Roger, if it wasn't obvious to you then well, whatever.

You aren't the only one kryyst.  I wasn't sure what Roger was on about either.  

I don't see the point in expanding the "ability array"... but if you're going to do it, do it because it fits a specific genre you're trying to develop.  Make it suit the mood of the campaign.  Don't do it just to try to make an uber-comprehensive attribute set - because everyone's definition of what is exhaustive differs.  You'll always have someone trying to do what you're doing to D&D.

For example... if education plays a huge role in your game (it takes place in the city, for example), add Education as an ability score, having it's modifier apply to scholarly pursuits and to even some social interactions... if that's appropriate for your game.

I played in a game where the DM gave a separate attribute called Lawfulness.  In his campaign, the battle for law and chaos was paramount.  The time of your birth told how much order your body had, or how much anarchy.  He had a few uses for it - but basically it added flavor.

On the old Nothingland, I did quite a bit of tinkering with ability scores.  

(I have this vapourware project I pull out from time to time: designing an RPG system from the ground up.  Not that Forge "meaningful gaming" bullshit, mind you: my design is strictly mechanics-based.  What I want is a better system, not soap opera shit.)

I ended up with five ability scores: Body (physical attributes), Grace (charisma), Life (willpower and will to live), Mind (mental attributes), and Sense (perception and hand-eye coordination).  They cover pretty much everything I want out of a set of ability scores.