Sorry for starting a new thread so similar to one before, but I think the questions are different enough:

1) Does such a thing exist? Has anyone taken a stab at redoing the Rules Cyclopedia or BECMI in d20?  And I'm not talking about stripping down the classes into a featherweight d20.  I mean converting the whole bag: Races as classes, Strongholds, etc.?

2) If not, what would your incarnation look like?  Would you include skills and feats or simply streamline the mechanics to match the RC for things like Surprise, etc?

Such a thing does exist, but it's called the Rules Compendium.

http://www.amazon.com/Compendium-Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying/dp/078694725X

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;367971Such a thing does exist, but it's called the Rules Compendium.

http://www.amazon.com/Compendium-Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying/dp/078694725X

Thanks for trying, but this would not be what I mean.  Other than having similar names, this has very little similarity to my query.  The Compendium you provided a link for appears to be (based on product description and review, I don't own it) rules summaries for D&D 3E.

The speculative product I'm talking about would be a d20 conversion of the D&D Rules Cyclopedia, RC, or the BECMI line.

EDIT: OP edited to clarify edition.

I don't think such a thing exists. Mystara characters can be pretty well modeled in 3.5/OGL without a serious amount of issue. Perhaps making things like Druid, Paladin, and Avenger into PrCs and making racial classes based off of the existing racial paragon classes.

But what I think 3.5/OGL lacks is the overland hex-clearing, mass combat, and stronghold management systems that Mystara/ODnD implemented.

http://www.basicfantasy.org/main.html

Kinda close to what you had in mind?

The rules package don't seem to have info for strongholds, immortals, or any of other high level stuff, but there is a ton of additional downloadable materials available which may cover those areas.

Quote from: winkingbishop;3679681) Does such a thing exist? Has anyone taken a stab at redoing the Rules Cyclopedia or BECMI in d20?  And I'm not talking about stripping down the classes into a featherweight d20.  I mean converting the whole bag: Races as classes, Strongholds, etc.?

No, I don't think anyone gave it a shot.

Quote from: winkingbishop;3679682) If not, what would your incarnation look like?  Would you include skills and feats or simply streamline the mechanics to match the RC for things like Surprise, etc?

That would be a weighty tome indeed. After it's really up to how close you really want to stick to the original material.

One thought though: I personally don't particularly see the point of converting RC to d20 if you're not going to include stuff like Feats and Prestige Classes (I think there are too many d20 variants out there compared to close D&D/d20 compatible games, like Arcana Evolved, for instance, and I clearly prefer the latter, personally). Otherwise, I'd just stick to RC itself.

It means that in practice you'd have not only to translate RC itself in d20 mechanics, but add to it quite a few amounts of material to make it d20 through and through.

It also means that you'll have to make choices between what you keep and what you change to d20 when rules overlap in terms of concept and emulation. That'd be quite an extensive comb operation, so to speak.

Basic Fantasy's design goal was to create a game that was more similar to Basic D&D using the 3.5 SRD. Whether that was succesful or not is open to debate.

It does not use races as classes though so it may not be what you want.

Quote from: Danger;367979http://www.basicfantasy.org/main.html

Kinda close to what you had in mind?

Hmm. Close-ish.  Similar in spirit, at least.  But as far as I could tell skimming the crunch it looked like the only thing that looked truly inspired by d20 was Armor Class flip-flop.  They left in a lot of D&D artifacts (d6 for surprise, percentile thief skills) that makes me think of the word clone before conversion.  And, like you volunteered earlier, no strongholds / endgame type of stuff.

Not that any of that is a bad thing.  Looks like a sweet game.  But it is not quite what I was driving at.

Quote from: BenoistIt means that in practice you'd have not only to translate RC itself in d20 mechanics, but add to it quite a few amounts of material to make it d20 through and through.

It also means that you'll have to make choices between what you keep and what you change to d20 when rules overlap in terms of concept and emulation. That'd be quite an extensive comb operation, so to speak.

Yeah.  Here is what I was alluding to in my 2nd question.  What WOULD you do with the overlap?  I'll keep using Surprise as an example.  In RC, you use that fantastic d6 check.  No muss, no fuss.  In d20, you would be compelled to make it a d20 check.  So what modifies it?  Would you use Skills in d20 Rules Cyclopedia?  Leave the heart of the mechanic the same but just change it to a d20 (e.g. Roll 1d20 when there is a chance for either side to be surprised, 7+ means no surprise)?  How about Morale rules?

Not to mention trying to convert Strongholds, Mass Combat and the other subsystems.  I think even trying to grok the currency conversion would be tough.

Nevertheless, it might be worth it, at least for me and my group.  Here is where I will disagree with Benoist where he says:

Quote from: BenoistI personally don't particularly see the point of converting RC to d20 if you're not going to include stuff like Feats and Prestige Classes

For me, this speculative d20 Rules Cyclopedia would have that basic, compact feel that I want, but using the streamlined die roll.  I mean, hell yeah, its probably more work than its worth.  Unless you have a sack of rabid d20-loving players.

Quote from: winkingbishop;367993For me, this speculative d20 Rules Cyclopedia would have that basic, compact feel that I want, but using the streamlined die roll.  I mean, hell yeah, its probably more work than its worth.  Unless you have a sack of rabid d20-loving players.

I believe Castles & Crusades is close to what you are looking for. It emulates AD&D 1st with the d20 system in mind.

Also, Sword & Wizardry adds the possibility to calculate AC like the d20 system. It emulates the old D&D, but it's still not exactly what you are looking for.

Quote from: Scaredy Squirrel;367998I believe Castles & Crusades is close to what you are looking for. It emulates AD&D 1st with the d20 system in mind.

Also, Sword & Wizardry adds the possibility to calculate AC like the d20 system. It emulates the old D&D, but it's still not exactly what you are looking for.

I'd have to agree there. Your wishes, Bishop, sound like what I was searching for when I started looking towards the old school branch of D&D gaming.

The short answer here is that, though you could perfectly start to rework a whole old-school rules set to create your own d20-flavored retroclone, some games already out there might serve as ready base for you to build house rules on them. It's much faster, with the added benefit of liberating you from having to concentrate too much of your time of the very basics of the game system.

C&C is like the esperanto between D&D's editions. It's based on First Ed, but uses a broad d20 resolution mechanic, streamlined saves based on Attribute checks etc (what is referred to as the "Siege engine" in there), and allows you to basically pick up any module or monster from any edition and use it in your game with little to no conversion time. It's awesome when you want to get down to it, the play's the thing, the hell with the rules' minutiae, kind of thing.

If, however, what you want to do is get back all the flavor of the fiddly bits of RC, plugging sub-systems and stuff onto a d20 based main frame, you can't go wrong with Swords & Wizardry. It's a game that's actually designed for you to have a base on which to build the specific rules experience you want. It gives you the choice between using Ascending or Descending Armor Classes. Just pick Ascending for d20 purposes. Plug onto it a resolution mechanic that fits your d20 purposes, like the one included in Rob's Majestic Wilderlands (and discussed in that thread), or Randall's own (discussed on his blog), or even C&C's Siege mechanic (why not), or your own constructed variant as need be. Then, add RC's elements you think fit the feel of the game you want the most (modifying races into full specific classes for instance, adding strongholds, etc), possibly constructing the system as you play, and you end up with exactly the rules you need for the feel you need in your game.

You can actually get the S&W rules for free in PDF format. (Click right here for the Core Rules)

Quote from: Benoist;368009you can't go wrong with Swords & Wizardry. It's a game that's actually designed for you to have a base on which to build the specific rules experience you want.

I agree with Benoist, S&W Core Rules is the best of the retro clones to build your own version of D&D on. Pretty much boils stuff down to a ur-D&D.

Troll Lord Games is supposed to be putting out a Basic C&C game modeled after classic D&D with the whole race as class schtick.  They've been talking about it for years now, so who knows if it will ever see the light of day.

I really don't get it with them, you've got these two products that everyone is waiting for (the Castle Keeper's Guide and the C&C Basic Game), yet they keep putting out all this other stuff and seemingly ignoring these two.

Quote from: Scaredy Squirrel;367998I believe Castles & Crusades is close to what you are looking for. It emulates AD&D 1st with the d20 system in mind.

Also, Sword & Wizardry adds the possibility to calculate AC like the d20 system. It emulates the old D&D, but it's still not exactly what you are looking for.

Thanks for killing off another one of my evening reading another retro-clone-mashup.  Last night Labyrinth Lord effectively killed off my chances of finishing my book and cooking a decent meal.  Dammit.  

Benoist: Thanks for summarizing the differences and excellent descriptions.  That will help immensely because I know by the time I'm done reading each of these I'm going to get them confused.  In fact, I'm 99 percent sure I've read S&W before but clearly not carefully enough, because the toolbox effect you mention didn't come across at a casual glance.

Which one out of the two have you played more?

estar: Thanks for casting a vote

Technomancer: Would that be... this?




::tentative hmm:: I don't know... I'm not sure Castle Keeper looks as good on a CV as Dungeon Master.  Tough sell for me....

Quote from: winkingbishop;368044Which one out of the two have you played more?

Swords & Wizardry.
These are the rules I use as a base in the game I talk about on the Citadel of Eight (which I will update at some point). I even explain how I got there, in terms of choosing the system.

Quote from: Technomancer;368012I really don't get it with them, you've got these two products that everyone is waiting for (the Castle Keeper's Guide and the C&C Basic Game), yet they keep putting out all this other stuff and seemingly ignoring these two.

I don't get it either. A few months ago I would have been interested in checking out the CKG.
Now... I just moved on to other things.