Saw this question elsewhere and just had to share.
From
Benoist Poire


Read some fascinating (for a 1st ed nerd like me) discussions about the Druid.

Per 1st edition rules, when your 7th level Druid  changes form into a reptile, a bird or a mammal, does he acquire the hit dice of the creature as well, or does retain his own hit dice and hit points?

Note this ability is *not* an equivalent of the polymorph spell, that staying in a particular form has no duration, and that the Druid "becomes the creature in all respects but mind" to paraphrase the PH. The only real limitation is that he can change a maximum of three times a day, and only once per day for each animal type.

Note the Druid also regains 1-6 x10% of hit points lost when changing form.

I can honestly see it going either way, and it seems that in print it was interpreted one way with alternate HD and HP for the animal form in White Plume Mountain, and the other way, retaining the HP and HD of Druid, in ToEE. I haven't checked the sources myself but they were referenced in the conversation.

I have my own interpretation of this, but what would be your own DM ruling?

Not changing stats is and always has been a cheap and lame copout in any system in which it has appeared.  With the exception of faerie glamours of course which only change appearance and not shape.

Page 21 of the 1e PHB states, "Ability to change forms up to three times per day, actually becoming, in all respects save the mind, a reptile, bird or mammal." Italics mine. I see that as including Hit Dice and any innate abilities the creature has.

I'll bet there was an official ruling in Sage Advice or somewhere. Anyway, I'd let the Druid retain the HP as I feel that nearly all HP past level 1 are from luck, skill at dodging blows, and the favor of the gods.

Quote from: Krimson;951131Page 21 of the 1e PHB states, "Ability to change forms up to three times per day, actually becoming, in all respects save the mind, a reptile, bird or mammal." Italics mine. I see that as including Hit Dice and any innate abilities the creature has.

Yeah, all respects means all respects, I'd say.  You actually become a hummingbird or a bumblebee or whatever.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;951135Yeah, all respects means all respects, I'd say.  You actually become a hummingbird or a bumblebee or whatever.

Unfortunately for Gary, Me and probably 50% of the game designers out there. We learn the hard way that reading comprehension is not as common as one would have hoped.

For fucks sake the number of arguments and explanations I've gotten into over just the word "may" and interpretation of its meaning makes me want to erase it from every rule book ever! argh!

Fuck druids.

(No, really--shit like this is why I hate them. Familiars, too. Shortcuts.)

But agree they should take on new form stats, otherwise, there's no risk to shifting into, say, a bee.

I don't really see this as even one of the more contentiously worded parts of the game. "All respects" isn't very unclear. I suppose it should say "all respects save mind, plus retaining the ability to change shape," but that's probably a post-the-carnage-of-3e-era-internet-debates 'all-loopholes-must-be-filled' mentality that 1e never pretended to be designed towards (to its credit I think).

So that's how I see the rules actually working. As for how they should work, it really depends on how you want druids to work in your campaign. I like the idea of actions having risks, risks having the potential of reward but potential consequences, etc. etc. That's a huge part of the game--risk, reward, decisions, information on the true risks and rewards of a situation being the more valuable than any +x sword, etc. However, there's also the issue of incentivization. In my mind, all of the 'fun' things you can do with a shapeshifting druid is turning into something with 1-2 hp. If you are a 10th level druid with 45 hp, that 95-98% reduction in hp might be deemed 'simply too risky' to ever be attempted. The 5th level druid with a 6 con and 12 hp turning into a bear or wildcat or whatever because it has better combat durability than their natural form (or worse the 3e version where shapechange simply becomes the druid's war form)? That's the least interesting thing to do with druid shapechanging, and I do not want to encourage that kind of thought. For that reason, I might be persuaded to go with a 'keep your hp' mindset. After all, if the druid turns into a bee or sparrow, and the bad guys realize the infiltration, he's still a low-AC, can't cast druid out by himself (so, as a duck, he is a sitting duck). So it's not like lowering their hp is the only thing keeping bee-form infiltration from being some form of ultimate winning strategy.

Quote from: Omega;951136Unfortunately for Gary, Me and probably 50% of the game designers out there. We learn the hard way that reading comprehension is not as common as one would have hoped.

For fucks sake the number of arguments and explanations I've gotten into over just the word "may" and interpretation of its meaning makes me want to erase it from every rule book ever! argh!

Oh, CROM, tell me about it.  It's bad in some parts of the OD&D online community too.  And on FB somebody was complaining that CHAINMAIL was hard to understand, and Tim Kask said "you need to work on your reading comprehension."  I have to agree with Tim in this case.  I first read CHAINMAIL when I was 16 and I figured it out.

The other thing that annoys me about the OD&D online community is that if there is a sentence, phrase, or rule that can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways is completely logical and fits perfectly into the stream of the rules, and the other makes NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL, there are people who will argue that either explanation is possibly the right one.  "Assume that the rule writer was not a total fucking idiot" seems hard for some people to grasp.

Quote from: cranebump;951395Fuck druids.

(No, really--shit like this is why I hate them. Familiars, too. Shortcuts.)

But agree they should take on new form stats, otherwise, there's no risk to shifting into, say, a bee.

C'mon, if that were the case a GM couldn't justify you swatting a bee and it only takes 1 out of 100 HP.

What about Intelligence and such? You shouldn't lose who you are, but I think it's cool to say there's a hold-over/"personality static" of a kind ("Cruag is certainly volatile after spending all day hunting as a wolf, isn't he?"). There aren't mechanics for this but it's an interesting role-play angle.

Quote from: Omega;951136We learn the hard way that reading comprehension is not as common as one would have hoped.

That there is the ultimate lesson of the Internet for me.

I've never much cared for druids.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;951135Yeah, all respects means all respects, I'd say.  You actually become a hummingbird or a bumblebee or whatever.

I concur and how I handled it back in the day.

Unlike later edition it was clear to even junior high age gamers this was transforming into actual animals not to turn the druid into some type of combat monster. However this ability does have one outstanding combat effect and that was its healing ability. I won a AD&D combat tourney because of the edge this gave me. I had three extra heals to use. I transformed into a bird flew away and then transform back. Coupled with the spells and cleric to hit chart I was effective against both magic users and fighters.

As a point of reference here are the two references to the Druid's shape changing ability in OD&D.

Greyhawk page 34

QuoteDruids may change shape three times per day, once each to any reptile, bird and animal respectively, from size as small as a raven to as large as a small bear.

Eldritch Wizardry page 2

QuoteUpon reaching the 5th Circle druids then gain the power to shape change (as previously mentioned in GREYHAWK with regard to the Druid-type monster), and when changing from one form to another they lose from 10% to 60% of any damage previously sustained;

Well I can't see why a D&D bee shouldn't have 7 hit dice... I don't think it ever occured to me to change the druid's hit point total when shapechanged. Since it's not a combat spell in 1e this never came up that I can recall, though.