Quote from: Scutter;844159Just what was the point of including them in the first place? They sound gimmicky.

They make contextual sense in the two campaign worlds released by MCG so far. They have kind of painted themselves into a corner by saying that they are the defining feature of the game, and to be honest I wouldn't really agree with that premise.

Replace it with an appropriate stunt mechanic, or just give people some extra chits to use for only in-game XP burning (immediate and short term benefits only) and you would probably have the same overall capacity to do cool stuff.

The cypher system is probably a similar level of complexity for players as Savage Worlds, but with lower GM-load and more differentiated characters.

I'm still only half way through the the book at this point, but it certainly looks like a sweet spot for me.

Quote from: dbm;844181They make contextual sense in the two campaign worlds released by MCG so far. They have kind of painted themselves into a corner by saying that they are the defining feature of the game, and to be honest I wouldn't really agree with that premise.

I'm still only half way through the the book at this point, but it certainly looks like a sweet spot for me.

Actually, they deal with this later by the concept of Subtle Cyphers, Cyphers that aren't actual objects but boons that affect the character's stats but don't have a physical form for settings where cyphers wouldn't be appropriate, like modern day or historical.

Quote from: JRT;844186Actually, they deal with this later by the concept of Subtle Cyphers, Cyphers that aren't actual objects but boons that affect the character's stats but don't have a physical form for settings where cyphers wouldn't be appropriate, like modern day or historical.

Could you give a few examples, again using a zombie horror survival type setting?

Quote from: Scutter;844221Could you give a few examples, again using a zombie horror survival type setting?

Instead of a a pill that gives you perfect recall of an event, you have a one-shot moment of clarity with the same effect.  You don't get a healing potion, but more of second wind or adrenaline surge.  The effects are all the same, you're just reskinning the package.

Quote from: Scutter;844221Could you give a few examples, again using a zombie horror survival type setting?

While there's no example for a specific setting and most of the cyphers listed are "objects", here's what they say can be used for subtle cyphers.

QuoteSubtle cyphers are a way to introduce cyphers into a game without overt "powered stuff"—no potions, alien crystals, or anything of that nature. They're most useful, perhaps, in a modern or horror setting without obvious fantasy elements.

Subtle cyphers are more like the inherent abilities PCs have, adding boosts to Edge, recovering points from Pools, coming up with ideas, and so on. No laser beams or walking through walls with subtle cyphers. They don't break the fragile bubble of believability in genres where flashy powers and abilities don't make a lot of sense. Subtle cyphers are particularly nice in a genre where the PCs are supposed to be normal people. The cyphers can simply be an expression of innate capabilities in characters that aren't always dependable. And in many ways, that's probably more realistic than an ability you can count on with certainty, because in real life, sometimes you can jump over a fence, and some days you just can't.

Some concepts for subtle cyphers include the following:

Good Fortune: Once in a while, things just go your way. You're in the right place at the right time.

Inspirations: Sometimes you get inspired to do something you've never done before and might not be able to do again. Call it adrenaline mixed with the right motivation, or just doing the right thing at the right place at the right time. Who can really define such things? Life's funny that way.

...


Since subtle cyphers aren't physical objects, GMs will need to figure out when to give PCs new ones to replace those they might have used. The cyphers aren't items to be found. They probably shouldn't be tied to actions entirely under the characters' control— in other words, they shouldn't come as a result of meditation or anything of that nature. Instead, the GM should choose significant points in the course of the story when new subtle cyphers might simply come unbidden to the PCs. In the broader view, this is no different than placing physical cyphers in a creature's lair, a secret cache, or somewhere else for the characters to find. Either way, the GM is picking good spots to "refill" potentially used cypherbased abilities.

Quote from: Scutter;844159Just what was the point of including them in the first place? They sound gimmicky.

Deja vu.

Cyphers are a spice of awesome. The reason they're one-use items is because it largely frees you up to make the spice as awesome as you can imagine without having to worry as much about whether or not the result is perfectly balanced: If it turns out that some arcane interaction of cyphers and abilities allow the PCs to do something that would "break" the experience of the game, it's not really a big deal because they can't do it again.

A lot of the Cypher System is built around mechanical structures that give the GM permission to take larger creative risks without having to worry about long-term consequences. The rest of the system is built around simplifying the mechanical preparation required to execute creative ideas, making it far easier for GMs to improvise new material on the fly.

(It's almost as if you already had this asked and answered.)

Quote from: JRT;844263While there's no example for a specific setting and most of the cyphers listed are "objects", here's what they say can be used for subtle cyphers.

Ubiquitous, randomized dissociated mechanics. That sounds... awful. (The claim that it's "realistic" that you can only climb over a fence if you've randomly rolled the Climb Over Fence ability that day is particularly ludicrous.)

As much as I'm a huge fan of Numenera, there's a reason why I haven't bought the generic rulebook. The cypher element of the system is simply not generic, no matter how hard they keep trying to jam that square peg into round holes.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;844311Deja vu.


(It's almost as if you already had this asked and answered.)

Different slant actually.

First time I asked, it was to do with 'I have no idea what they are used for'. Second time I asked, it was to do with 'Ok, that's what they are used for, but why implement them in the first place?' Or put another way; 'Were they really a requirement or were they just a hangover from Numenera/Strange?'

Going by those examples I think they're definitely workable

Thanks for the advice