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Can someone explain to me how this system works? Is it sucky? why/why not?

Basicly only the players get to roll dice.  The GM gets to say what happens and what is the challenge rating that ranges from 1 to 10.  The TN to succeed the challenge is three times its challenge rating so the most you can see is TN 30.  

Now with only one d20 that seems impossible, but that is where your skills come in.  Each rank in a skill decreases the challenge by one.  So a person with three ranks in dodging can treat a challenge rating 7 (TN 21) attack as if it is challenge rating 4 (TN 12).  You can also use effort which spends your attribute points, but reduces the challenge rating as well.  

Yes your attributes are hit points and if you run out your dead.  Though you can heal them with rest and recovery.  You can also get special items called cyphers that can further aid you.

DO NOTE:  I am by no means a expert and all my info is coming from Numenera which was the first setting to use the cypher system.

It seems to be a bit of a marmite system...

All game rolls (skills, attacks, defences) are handled with a d20.  The GM specifies a difficulty from 1 to 10.  Multiply that number by 3 to get your target number for the d20 roll (high rolls are good). Beneficial factors and skill reduce the target number.  Deleterious factors can increase it.  You can also burn points to bring down the target number, which brings us to:

Every character has just three stats - Might, Speed and Intellect. These are both your 'hit points' and your ability to push yourself further.  Want to be more successful at a Might based test? Spend some Might points to buy down the difficulty.  The cost of buying down and the maximum amount you can buy down both tend to increase as you gain levels. Stats are targeted by attacks, with physical attacks reducing Might or Speed at the choice of the player. One stat to zero is a serious wound, two to zero is unconsciousness and all three is death. Some abilities cost points to activate.

Another interesting feature of the system is that the player always rolls the dice.  The GM never rolls for enemies in combat.  If you want to hit them, you roll against their defence difficulty.  If you want to dodge them you roll against their attack difficulty.  For simple enemies these numbers are the same but creatures can be better at attack than defence or vice versa.

That's the core of the system right there.

Characters are defined by the phrase "I'm a ____ ____ who ____s". You could be a "clever jack who masters weaponry". The three bits are a descriptor, type and focus respectively.  The type is a class, descriptors tend to modify your stats and skills a little, whilst the focus gives you an additional set of powers and abilities which improve as you level up.  It means you can make some very diverse characters.  The three types are slightly different in Numenera and the Strange, and there will actually be four choices available in the Cypher System generic book which is coming out soon.

There is a meta game element in the form of spending XP to buy increased chance of success and potentially receiving extra XP through a mechanism called 'GM Intrusions'.  These are kind of like compels in Fate, or GM selected critical failure results, or just plan hosing down one of the characters.  It sounds a little weird, but in play we found both mechanisms were fine.

My group enjoyed it, but then 13th Age came up and people were drawn away by the new shiny.  I've pre-ordered the Cypher System book and I'm planning to give it another go with my group when that arrives shortly. It's a fairly light weight system which still has a fair amount of mechanical differentiation for characters, and it's less 'out there' than Fate for my group.

Skills have one rank. You either have it or you don't. Then you can specialize, and that could reduce the difficulty by one more. But of course, it's for a narrower subject. Max -2 difficulty from skill.

Your abilities have two ratings; I can't remember what they are called, but one is how many points you have, and the other reduces the point cost to reduce the difficulty.

So, say you have a difficulty 5 task to break down a door. Your might is a 6/2. You want to reduce the difficulty. Normally, you would spend 3 points per point of difficulty, but because you have that "2" there, you only have to spend 1. You spend 2 points and reduce the difficulty to 3. 3x3 = 9, so you have to roll better than 9.

Damage and armor are set values. If you roll a natural 18, 19 or 20, you can do extra damage.

I'm no expert either, this is what I remember off the top of my head.

It is a lighter rules system with plenty of character options. The Numenera setting and The Strange settings are lavishly detailed, mapped and illustrated (as one might expect from Monte Cook game. :-). The books are gorgeous, but the system hasn't clicked with me nor do I feel inspired to run. Time may change that of course (I was in both KS and have all the books). Personally, I think it's worth checking out, there's a lot of great material. If you dig the system, you will have LOADS of great stuff to run a game with (2 bestiaries, setting guides, plenty of adventures...).

Quote from: dbm;843417I've pre-ordered the Cypher System book and I'm planning to give it another go with my group when that arrives shortly.

Just a heads up: depending on where you pre-ordered it, your PDF may already be in your account library.

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;843453Just a heads up: depending on where you pre-ordered it, your PDF may already be in your account library.

Thanks, yes I have that now. Didn't get an email but noticed others had theirs so went looking.

Isn't this the game where the GM has to include temporary cyphers (magic items) that pcs can use because there's next to no character growth ruleswise in the game?

There's character growth in that you get better at doing things and you can more easily do difficult things as you advance.   You also gain more powers over time.

The cyphers seemed like a way to compromise between having slower character progression while still giving new things you could do each session.

Quote from: Bunch;843576There's character growth in that you get better at doing things and you can more easily do difficult things as you advance.   You also gain more powers over time.

The cyphers seemed like a way to compromise between having slower character progression while still giving new things you could do each session.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment. Characters start off rather powerful, and by Sixth-Tier they're able to do insanely crazy shit. The Cypher system itself is super simple, which makes it really easy to run when you're drunk (I ran it twice, both times very inebriated). I backed both Numenera and The Strange, and think the latter has a better implementation of the system. If you have cash to blow, definitely worth the money.

Quote from: Scutter;843559Isn't this the game where the GM has to include temporary cyphers (magic items) that pcs can use because there's next to no character growth ruleswise in the game?

The game has 24 levels of advancement separated into 6 tiers. As you advance through the tiers, your characters will become significantly better (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/35363/roleplaying-games/numenera-calibrating-your-expectations) at things, even ignoring the new abilities they're gaining. (And that's not even taking into alternative abilities that can be purchased off the core advancement track.) So, short answer: No. The cyphers aren't compensating for a lack of character growth, because the game actually features a robust system of character growth.

Cyphers are a spice of awesome. The reason they're one-use items is because it largely frees you up to make the spice as awesome as you can imagine without having to worry as much about whether or not the result is perfectly balanced: If it turns out that some arcane interaction of cyphers and abilities allow the PCs to do something that would "break" the experience of the game, it's not really a big deal because they can't do it again.

A lot of the Cypher System is built around mechanical structures that give the GM permission to take larger creative risks without having to worry about long-term consequences. The rest of the system is built around simplifying the mechanical preparation required to execute creative ideas, making it far easier for GMs to improvise new material on the fly.

The combination is surprisingly potent in actual play.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;843596The game has 24 levels of advancement separated into 6 tiers. As you advance through the tiers, your characters will become significantly better (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/35363/roleplaying-games/numenera-calibrating-your-expectations) at things, even ignoring the new abilities they're gaining. (And that's not even taking into alternative abilities that can be purchased off the core advancement track.) So, short answer: No. The cyphers aren't compensating for a lack of character growth, because the game actually features a robust system of character growth.

Cyphers are a spice of awesome. The reason they're one-use items is because it largely frees you up to make the spice as awesome as you can imagine without having to worry as much about whether or not the result is perfectly balanced: If it turns out that some arcane interaction of cyphers and abilities allow the PCs to do something that would "break" the experience of the game, it's not really a big deal because they can't do it again.

A lot of the Cypher System is built around mechanical structures that give the GM permission to take larger creative risks without having to worry about long-term consequences. The rest of the system is built around simplifying the mechanical preparation required to execute creative ideas, making it far easier for GMs to improvise new material on the fly.

The combination is surprisingly potent in actual play.

Interesting

The website linked to though, says that a skill specialisation equates to a -2 to the difficulty. If that's 0, -1, -2, that not much growth at all.

Quote from: Scutter;843600Interesting

The website linked to though, says that a skill specialisation equates to a -2 to the difficulty. If that's 0, -1, -2, that not much growth at all.

That is only one source of growth. Three other factors also influence your capability. As you level up you increase your Effort, which is the maximum additional effort you can invest to decrease difficulty ratings. This rises from 1 to 6. Actually investing effort costs points from your pools. Directly increasing the size of your pools help increase capacity here, so you can push harder for longer. Finally, there is an Edge rating for each stat which can be increased separately. Edge reduces the cost of effort or other drains on your pools (such as activating special abilities).

Then there are additional capabilities you gain as you level up (from both your type and focus, so two sets of improvement for every tier you gain) and you gain extra skills through levelling up (giving horizontal growth) or you can swap skill increase for small perks like reducing the penalties for wearing armour.

There really is quite a lot of mechanical growth.

Thanks for the heads up

Been looking for a universal rpg after my players dumped on Fate Core.

This might be worth taking a look at

Hmm yes it sounds potentially interesting. There's aspects of it that sound a little... odd. I'd have to see it in play. Hmm. HMMM...

Quote from: Scutter;843600Interesting

The website linked to though, says that a skill specialisation equates to a -2 to the difficulty. If that's 0, -1, -2, that not much growth at all.

Reduction in difficulty by one or two is more significant than you'd think, equivilent to a bonus of 3 or 6, respectively, on a d20.

Quote from: tenbones;843642Hmm yes it sounds potentially interesting. There's aspects of it that sound a little... odd. I'd have to see it in play. Hmm. HMMM...

I'm a huge fan of the system, but I'll be the first to admit that it is odd and takes a bit to wrap one's head around. It has elements of both traditional RPGs and narrative storygames at the same time, so purists of either philosophy will hate it. If you just lean in one direction or the other, you might like it. For my part, I have a strong leaning to traditional games, but don't hate narrative games, and love Cypher. I have a player who leans heavily toward narrative games, but has a healthy respect for traditional games, and he likes the system. But it definitely has a lot of chocolate in your peanut butter and vice versa.

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;843664I'm a huge fan of the system, but I'll be the first to admit that it is odd and takes a bit to wrap one's head around. It has elements of both traditional RPGs and narrative storygames at the same time, so purists of either philosophy will hate it. If you just lean in one direction or the other, you might like it. For my part, I have a strong leaning to traditional games, but don't hate narrative games, and love Cypher. I have a player who leans heavily toward narrative games, but has a healthy respect for traditional games, and he likes the system. But it definitely has a lot of chocolate in your peanut butter and vice versa.

Yeah I'm not a purist. I like something that works. I don't technically need or even believe in ONE TRUE SYSTEM! - that's a myth. Sometimes I just like to try things differently. I'm a traditional gamer... but I don't overtly hate "narrative games".

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;843664It has elements of both traditional RPGs and narrative storygames at the same time, so purists of either philosophy will hate it.

What I've found interesting about the system's implementation of narrative control mechanics is that they're implemented in a way which still leaves the GM as ultimate arbiter of the narrative control. The system also doesn't depend on them in any way, which makes them completely optional: If you're a GM who doesn't like them, simply don't use them. If you're a player who doesn't like them, the default position is to simply defer to the GM's narrative control (which means they functionally don't interfere with your experience).

(OTOH, if you're all about the narrative control mechanics, you can play into these mechanics very strongly and in some very clever ways.)

The biggest hurdle I've seen for some traditional gamers seems to be the mechanic of spending points from limited pools. It's an exhaustion-and-exertion model of human performance as opposed to the "perpetual motion machine" of traditional games (where, barring injury, you're always performing at peak efficiency). The reality probably lies somewhere inbetween these two abstractions, and I find the Cypher System's interplay of edge, effort, and point spends very satisfying during actual play.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;843737The biggest hurdle I've seen for some traditional gamers seems to be the mechanic of spending points from limited pools. It's an exhaustion-and-exertion model of human performance as opposed to the "perpetual motion machine" of traditional games (where, barring injury, you're always performing at peak efficiency). The reality probably lies somewhere inbetween these two abstractions, and I find the Cypher System's interplay of edge, effort, and point spends very satisfying during actual play.

It's an elegant way of modelling people slowing down whilst leaving control completely in the hand of the player.  Only have a small number of Might points left and a power that is run off them? You probably won't use that power unless it's make-or-break as it would leave you very vulnerable to damage.  So players naturally throttle back as they get worn down but they can always use the powers they have as long as they have the minimum number of required points.

I really like it in play.

It's amazingly easy to convert cypher system material to oldschool D&D, as if that was a deliberate design decision. I gotta post my dirt simple conversion notes sometime.

How universal in application is it?

I'm sure it can do horror, sci fi, fantasy, probably even supers, but can it shift from gritty to epic or does it find it's more comfortable at a certain niche?

I'm basing this only on reading the book, but I think you could make changes some of the basics to get grittier or more epic.  Putting a cap on the stat pools would get grittier, since that's what controls your health and how much Wahoo! you can put into your special abilities.  For more epic, I'd probably try using a smaller version of the power shifts they use for supers and lower the time categories for recovery rolls.  Of course, someone with more practical experience might tell you I'm full of crap.

Quote from: Scutter;843787How universal in application is it?

I'm sure it can do horror, sci fi, fantasy, probably even supers, but can it shift from gritty to epic or does it find it's more comfortable at a certain niche?

I tend to think of it as cinematic and use it that way, but others have used the lasting and permanent damage rules to make the game grittier without having to cap pools or anything like that. Like Almost said, the Power Shift rules from the Superheroes chapter could be used to make it higher-powered. So yeah, it's as "universal" as any other universal generic out there.

Thanks all

EDIT: Is the game out in hardcopy yet?

EDIT 2: What types of cyphers might how up in a gritty survival horror zombie setting for example?

Quote from: Scutter;843824Thanks all

EDIT: Is the game out in hardcopy yet?

I haven't got my hardcover yet, but preorders are supposed to be shipping. That said, MCG is also fulfilling the Numenera boxed set and the Worlds Numberless and Strange kickstarters at the same time. The general release is expected around GenCon.

Quote from: Scutter;843824EDIT 2: What types of cyphers might how up in a gritty survival horror zombie setting for example?

There's suggestions for which of the cyphers count as 'subtle' - effects more in line with conventional technology or drugs. Roughly 30 of the 150 cyphers fit into this category.

I could see this fitting well with the scavenging that goes on in things like The Walking Dead.

Quote from: Planet Algol;843781It's amazingly easy to convert cypher system material to oldschool D&D, as if that was a deliberate design decision. I gotta post my dirt simple conversion notes sometime.

I would very much like to see those! I love the setting but I'm iffy on the system (though I still intend to give it a try at the game table). A few tips on converting to D&D would come in handy.

Quote from: The Butcher;844050I would very much like to see those! I love the setting but I'm iffy on the system (though I still intend to give it a try at the game table). A few tips on converting to D&D would come in handy.

Numenera/Cypher to OD&D/AD&D/B/XD&D Conversion Guideines

Difficulty/Level x 3 = roll on a d20 to succeed on something.
1 step = a plus or minus 3 to the roll.

The level of a monster equals its Hit Dice for attack rolls, and it's level for saving throws. If there is a notation that Might, Speed or Intellect defenses are greater or less than the level give it a saving throw bonus or penalty of 3 per level difference per difference between the noted defense and it's level.

Divide Health by 3 to find the number of d8s to roll for hit points (a remainder of 1 equals Xd8+2, a remainder of 2 equals xd8+3). Or just multiply Health by 1.5 to calculate hitpoints.

The damage of something times 2 equals the die type for damage rools.
i.e. Damage 4, times 2 equals a d8.

Immediate range = 10'. Immediate movement = 3"/30
Short range = 50'. Short movement = 12"/120
Long range = 100'. Long movement = 24"/240

Armor: An armor of 1 = AC7, 2=AC5, 3=AC3, and so forth. If the speed defense is greater than the level of the monster give it bonus to AC of +3 per  level of speed defense greater than level.

If an attack directly attacks Might, have it drain STR or CON at a 1 point per point of might damage.
If it directly attacks Speed, same as for Dexterity. If it directly attacks Intellect, have it drain Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma, depending on what you consider appropriate.

Treasure: 1 shin = approximately 5 gp.
A cypher = one potion, 1-use scroll, or other 1-use magic item.
An artifact = a non potion/scroll magic item.
An oddity = a gem or piece of jewellery

Hope this makes sense?

Quote from: Planet Algol;844084Hope this makes sense?

It does! Thanks :)

The cyphers are a total deal breaker for me. As for leaving them out, it's a bit like buying a car with a 6th gear and someone telling you "You don't have to use it." Sure you don't have to use it, but you're always anxious about how it will affect performance and 'if' you're missing out. If that makes sense. Probably a bad example.

Just what was the point of including them in the first place? They sound gimmicky.

Quote from: Scutter;844159Just what was the point of including them in the first place? They sound gimmicky.

They make contextual sense in the two campaign worlds released by MCG so far. They have kind of painted themselves into a corner by saying that they are the defining feature of the game, and to be honest I wouldn't really agree with that premise.

Replace it with an appropriate stunt mechanic, or just give people some extra chits to use for only in-game XP burning (immediate and short term benefits only) and you would probably have the same overall capacity to do cool stuff.

The cypher system is probably a similar level of complexity for players as Savage Worlds, but with lower GM-load and more differentiated characters.

I'm still only half way through the the book at this point, but it certainly looks like a sweet spot for me.

Quote from: dbm;844181They make contextual sense in the two campaign worlds released by MCG so far. They have kind of painted themselves into a corner by saying that they are the defining feature of the game, and to be honest I wouldn't really agree with that premise.

I'm still only half way through the the book at this point, but it certainly looks like a sweet spot for me.

Actually, they deal with this later by the concept of Subtle Cyphers, Cyphers that aren't actual objects but boons that affect the character's stats but don't have a physical form for settings where cyphers wouldn't be appropriate, like modern day or historical.

Quote from: JRT;844186Actually, they deal with this later by the concept of Subtle Cyphers, Cyphers that aren't actual objects but boons that affect the character's stats but don't have a physical form for settings where cyphers wouldn't be appropriate, like modern day or historical.

Could you give a few examples, again using a zombie horror survival type setting?

Quote from: Scutter;844221Could you give a few examples, again using a zombie horror survival type setting?

Instead of a a pill that gives you perfect recall of an event, you have a one-shot moment of clarity with the same effect.  You don't get a healing potion, but more of second wind or adrenaline surge.  The effects are all the same, you're just reskinning the package.

Quote from: Scutter;844221Could you give a few examples, again using a zombie horror survival type setting?

While there's no example for a specific setting and most of the cyphers listed are "objects", here's what they say can be used for subtle cyphers.

QuoteSubtle cyphers are a way to introduce cyphers into a game without overt "powered stuff"—no potions, alien crystals, or anything of that nature. They're most useful, perhaps, in a modern or horror setting without obvious fantasy elements.

Subtle cyphers are more like the inherent abilities PCs have, adding boosts to Edge, recovering points from Pools, coming up with ideas, and so on. No laser beams or walking through walls with subtle cyphers. They don't break the fragile bubble of believability in genres where flashy powers and abilities don't make a lot of sense. Subtle cyphers are particularly nice in a genre where the PCs are supposed to be normal people. The cyphers can simply be an expression of innate capabilities in characters that aren't always dependable. And in many ways, that's probably more realistic than an ability you can count on with certainty, because in real life, sometimes you can jump over a fence, and some days you just can't.

Some concepts for subtle cyphers include the following:

Good Fortune: Once in a while, things just go your way. You're in the right place at the right time.

Inspirations: Sometimes you get inspired to do something you've never done before and might not be able to do again. Call it adrenaline mixed with the right motivation, or just doing the right thing at the right place at the right time. Who can really define such things? Life's funny that way.

...


Since subtle cyphers aren't physical objects, GMs will need to figure out when to give PCs new ones to replace those they might have used. The cyphers aren't items to be found. They probably shouldn't be tied to actions entirely under the characters' control— in other words, they shouldn't come as a result of meditation or anything of that nature. Instead, the GM should choose significant points in the course of the story when new subtle cyphers might simply come unbidden to the PCs. In the broader view, this is no different than placing physical cyphers in a creature's lair, a secret cache, or somewhere else for the characters to find. Either way, the GM is picking good spots to "refill" potentially used cypherbased abilities.

Quote from: Scutter;844159Just what was the point of including them in the first place? They sound gimmicky.

Deja vu.

Cyphers are a spice of awesome. The reason they're one-use items is because it largely frees you up to make the spice as awesome as you can imagine without having to worry as much about whether or not the result is perfectly balanced: If it turns out that some arcane interaction of cyphers and abilities allow the PCs to do something that would "break" the experience of the game, it's not really a big deal because they can't do it again.

A lot of the Cypher System is built around mechanical structures that give the GM permission to take larger creative risks without having to worry about long-term consequences. The rest of the system is built around simplifying the mechanical preparation required to execute creative ideas, making it far easier for GMs to improvise new material on the fly.

(It's almost as if you already had this asked and answered.)

Quote from: JRT;844263While there's no example for a specific setting and most of the cyphers listed are "objects", here's what they say can be used for subtle cyphers.

Ubiquitous, randomized dissociated mechanics. That sounds... awful. (The claim that it's "realistic" that you can only climb over a fence if you've randomly rolled the Climb Over Fence ability that day is particularly ludicrous.)

As much as I'm a huge fan of Numenera, there's a reason why I haven't bought the generic rulebook. The cypher element of the system is simply not generic, no matter how hard they keep trying to jam that square peg into round holes.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;844311Deja vu.


(It's almost as if you already had this asked and answered.)

Different slant actually.

First time I asked, it was to do with 'I have no idea what they are used for'. Second time I asked, it was to do with 'Ok, that's what they are used for, but why implement them in the first place?' Or put another way; 'Were they really a requirement or were they just a hangover from Numenera/Strange?'

Going by those examples I think they're definitely workable

Thanks for the advice