Let's take Snow Crash, Nueromancer, and many, many other books as the source material for cyberpunk. Nearly all have some form of sensory VR and assume that this is universally used for illicit computer access, i.e. cracking or hacking. It's a trope, it should be there.

But why?

For reasons detailed below, I need a better answer than "genre emulation". So I ask: what concrete advantages do a VR UI (user interface) offer hackers specifically?

Easier to activate programs? Wouldn't that make "deckers" little more than script kiddies? And how would a VR interface be any faster than, say, a multi-touch or WIMP (windows, icon, mouse, pointer) interface?

Cyberdecking, in most systems, turns hacking into a dungeon crawl. Neat and visual, but it has nothing to do with actual computing.

The Internet isn't a big "space", it's more like a multi-media book with billions of pages, 95% of which is porn, and 95% of the rest spam (usually for porn). You want information, you "request" it (via hyperlink or ftp) and it comes to you. You don't access servers or nodes via spatial travel, you do an address lookup. And so forth.

So what concrete reasons would prompt computer intrusion experts to use VR?

Why ask the question?

I'm building an alt-history technothriller Shadowrun campaign. By technothriller (or techno-magic thriller), I mean Shadowrun if written by Tom Clancy. PC's are special forces, secret agents, etc.

Technothrillers require or assume greater amounts of detail than usual. Consequently, I'm (trying to) detail a lot of things that either SR glossed over, or which get glossed over in typical cyberpunk games. VITAS, for example, got a detailed writeup including its aftermath.

Simsense VR gets glossed over a lot. It's assumed to be there, but why?

I usually save that stuff for the dreamlands and psionics. For nethacking its a game of chess, which translates to contested rolls, traps, and where you are relative to the physical location of the hardware. Sensory VR wrecked CP2020 if you used it in the system.

Well, keep in mind there is a difference between Virtual Reality (VR) and Altered Reality (AR).

VR is a completely different sensory experience, where AR is normal sensory input augmented with a HUD-like interface.

Also the VR of the Cyberpunk novels generally assumes some kind of Neural Interface, where commands can be sent at speed of thought without having to use your body to do anything, or if anything, minor adjustments, like hitting a key here and there.

Once you assume speed of thought commands it makes sense to structure the Virtual Realm in a way in which the brain can translate natural impulses and reflexes for movement into mental commands.  Thus we get the mental images of Ninjas fighting Medieval Knights or Terminators or whatever.  If the framework of the programs can be virtually structured so as to appear as natural body movements to the decker/hacker, then responses will be faster and more natural, ie. less training will be required and performance will be better.

4th Edition Shadowrun did away with Direct Neural Interface and you can basically have script kiddies using AR gauntlets to deck, causing a nightmare clusterfuck which Frank dissected beautifully on Dumpshock.

Quote from: CRKrueger;559688Well, keep in mind there is a difference between Virtual Reality (VR) and Altered Reality (AR).

Yeah, I had a small paragraph about the evolution of UI from Command Line, WIMP, Multi-Touch, to AR. Cut it for space. Basically it said "all interfaces have drawbacks and advantages". Not exactly a world shaking revelation, though.

Quote from: CRKrueger;559688Also the VR of the Cyberpunk novels generally assumes some kind of Neural Interface, where commands can be sent at speed of thought without having to use your body to do anything...it makes sense to structure the Virtual Realm in a way in which the brain can translate natural impulses and reflexes for movement into mental commands.

That I buy. A NUI (neural user interface) would be one step beyond VR. VR is gestural, so slower than NUI, and of little use to hackers. But a NUI offers speed advantages VR and other UI's simply cannot match.

It needs UI conventions that take advantage of that speed.

Let's expand:

All UI's have their own cues and use conventions. An example being switches for command line Unix.

In a WIMP interface, the "Home" directory has an icon of a house. House = home. Documents have specific icons (Classic Mac System, pieces of paper with a folded corner and writing on it). Distinct shapes and visual cues make them easy to remember and recognize.

The limit of a NUI is how fast you can think or react. So you build it with the absolute minimum friction possible: physical gestures and objects.

The directory structure and running software of a system are represented by objects you can see and manipulate. And interacting with them is the equivalent of regular user commands ("cd .."), but presented in a format the brain can use much more efficiently.

I buy that. More, it even makes sense.

Thanks, CRKrueger.

I think there could be a conceivable future where there was some kind of VR interfacing to the Internet, particularly if it became something where a kind of mix of Facebook and Second Life became a norm of internet browsing (and of course, VR technology was feasible).

But in this case, I would think that the actual "hacking" part would be just the opposite, it would be those moments you go OUT of the VR world and hit the underlying codes, possibly fucking around with them in such a way as to let you be able to do things in the VR-interface you wouldn't normally be able to do (superpowers? pseudo-magick? Fucking with other people's perceptions of the VR? That sort of thing).

RPGPundit

Let's talk hacking. To simplify hacking immensely, it boils down to this: hackers use their knowledge of computer systems and the organizations that run them, in order to illicitly gain access to computers.

Knowledge of computer systems means you know what you can exploit. Man-in-the-middle, buffer overflow, default admin accounts/passwords on OS's: all these are real world hacking techniques and all require a technical knowledge of the systems in question.

That's not all, however. Real world hackers are as much con men as they are computer specialists. Hence "social engineering", bluffing your way into getting people in organizations to give you access to manuals, passwords, or equipment you shouldn't have.

On a very simple game mechanical basis, the above can be represented by a Hacking skill (representing knowledge of systems) and a Difficulty Number for the target system (representing how easy it is to exploit). Success means you can use the computer system, failure means you can't, critical failure means you set off security software.

The hacker's skill roll can be augmented by data gained via social engineering (a Fast-Talk skill check giving you a bonus to the Hack roll), or even obviated. If you steal an admin's login, you don't need to hack to use their account.

(There are many other approaches one can take to this, mechanically speaking. This is just a simple one that matches the real world while also abstracting it.)

The above is a real world friendly view of hacking, so far as I know. Bruce Sterling's "Hacker Crackdown" and articles on prominent hackers constitute my applicable source material here.

Let's talk Tron. (Or Nueromancer, whichever you prefer.)

Cyberpunk RPG's tend to harken back to the 80's, and present a version of hacking that is, in essence, fantasy. (The WebMage novel series makes this explicit.) Tron-style battles in a virtual world have nothing to do with real hacking, and RPG systems built around those concepts only work if you don't look to closely at the link between the computer hardware and the software Virtual World.

Genre emulation, in other words. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that the genre I want to emulate excludes the fantastic treatment of computers.

As the Pundit said:

Quote from: RPGPundit;560104But in this case, I would think that the actual "hacking" part would be just the opposite, it would be those moments you go OUT of the VR world and hit the underlying codes

That's true. But the assumption is that a DNI (neural-link, whatever) lets you do it at the speed of thought. This translates to a massive reduction in the time required to crack a system.

But I've changed my mind about Tron battles. Hackers don't do that. You can't represent what they do with that. It's (literally) fantasy.

And, as such, Tron battles are the domain of Technomancers. They don't hack, they don't study code, they use their innate magic to interface with a computer and do fantastical things, magical things, using magic.

(Game role and game balance issues between hackers, DNI hackers, and Technomancers set aside, for the moment.)

But why? Why do Technomancers see computers in terms of a VR environment?

It's back to:

Quote from: RPGPundit;560104I think there could be a conceivable future where there was some kind of VR interfacing to the Internet

Internet access, in this future, is often done via AR glasses or contact lenses. I'm sure the concept is familiar to everyone—AR provides a translucent overlay onto reality, so looking at a 7-11 can tell you its address and phone number, or whatever. Tool-tips for the real world. (Play Deus Ex: Human Revolution if you're not.)

But these devices can also present an opaque overlay, so you can watch a movie on the train without seeing the jerk across the way. This opaque overlay can also be used to browse the Internet, using a 3-D VR interface.

This VR interface is how people in 2032 think of the Internet. Not as webpages, not as command line access to Archie, but a VR psuedo-space. (Hyperlinks are "teleporters", taking you to a new "node".)

So when Technomancers became capable of talking to computers with their mind using some magic, that's how they saw the Internet. As a VR space. And their attempts to circumvent security match that paradigm.

(Other PC's can ride along, and can be useful. Not the same as the Technomancer, but still useful.)

That's the approach I'm considering. It matches the detail needed for technothrillers, both in real-world hacking and the origins of Tron-ish Technomancers.

Both exist for explicable and understandable reasons. Which is what I'm shooting for.

I think once you accept the idea of a DNI and speed-of-thought commands, as well as using body motions and commands due to their innate speed and ease of use, then you face the possibility that to support such a paradigm (ie people having Virtual bodies inside the Net in order to facilitate DNI) requires a radical altering of existing network infrastructure.

Optimum command speed then requires immersion in the virtual reality of the Net and the more the Virtual body seems real, then the better the interface will function.  As a result, network architecture can change to something optimized for completely different reasons.

I think the DNI really is a game changer, and can alter how we think of networking the same way aircraft altered how we think of warfare.

Quote from: CRKrueger;560177I think the DNI really is a game changer, and can alter how we think of networking the same way aircraft altered how we think of warfare.

Details aside, that's sure to be correct. But that will take some time. Let's say, 10 years or longer.

(How many technically hyper-proficient people still prefer command-line interfaces? Nearly 30 years after the Macintosh, and even longer since PARC?)

In the Altered States campaign world, DNI is a brand new thing, just perfected in the last 2-3 years by DARPA, and heavily classified. The PC's have access to it (and cyberware and other neat toys) because they're spec-ops.

So it hasn't had a chance to change how people build, use, and administer OS's, networking hardware, and computers. Yet.

Again, in the long run you're right. DNI would change things. Just not right now.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;559679So what concrete reasons would prompt computer intrusion experts to use VR?

For the same reason that most of them use Windows-based interfaces today: If VR or AR becomes the default interface method for computers and computer-like devices, then it's an interface that will get used for everything.

If we accept that the VR is nothing more than an interface, then we can point out that it is likely superior to the current point and click GUI interfaces as those interfaces are superior to command prompt interfaces.

Which is all the justification it needs on the face of it.

Pointing out then that this reduces the VR cyberpunk hacker to nothing more than a script-kiddie, and real hacker are blah-blah-blah is no more relevant than my pointing out that no one hires assassins for a handful of multimillion dollar jobs a year, allowing to live jet setting sexy lives filled with tragic ennui.

Real hackers are boring and unsexy and generally aren't nearly as clever as they think they are, while real hitmen are semi-retarded slobs who get paid less than I'm making now IRL (once prorated for time and effort), and are more likely to go to jail than actually kill someone successfully.

Ditto indie rock stars, bikers and mobsters.

What's yer point?

Quote from: Spike;560243If we accept that the VR is nothing more than an interface, then we can point out that it is likely superior to the current point and click GUI interfaces as those interfaces are superior to command prompt interfaces.

I agree. But that still leaves cybercombat (Tron) and "hacking as dungeon crawling" as being meaningless and magical. Even in a VR environment, even in a DNI VR environment.

Quote from: Spike;560243What's yer point?

Um... what I already said?

Technothriller. Higher plausibility/verisimilitude requirement. Cyberdecking/hacking in most games doesn't make the cut.

I'm not sure how to state it more clearly than that.

Quote from: Spike;560243Pointing out then that... real hacker are blah-blah-blah is no more relevant

It is relevant to the kind of campaign I'm building. Extremely relevant.

In a techno-thriller, technical details matter. Magic, in such a setting, needs have its own laws and needs to follow them. Whatever they are.

Technobabble and handwavium should be minimized. It's part and parcel of the genre.

You don't care if decking is (in effect) just another magic system, in your game. And if I were running a cyberpunk game, I probably wouldn't either. But I do care for this game, for the reasons given above.

Quote from: Spike;560243Real hackers are boring and unsexy

So any effort to be more rigorously plausible dooms a hacking rules set to being boring?

I disagree. Slightly more realistic hackers than are present in most cyberpunk RPG's are possible. And might even be more enjoyable to play than a kick in the nads.

More realistic doesn't (always) equal less fun.

The exact method by which hacking is resolved as an element of game play is utterly divorced from wether or not 'vr' is used by the Hacker in the Setting as his primary method of hacking.

And yes "rigorously plausible dooms a hacking rules set to being boring" is true of hacking, just like its true of hitmen, and of mobsters and bikers.

I should note that this is 'Cyberpunk' you are talking about. Not 'IT and Idiots'*.  You want a game based on realistic hacking, go design one. I doubt it will be any less obnoxious than the virtual dungeons you're bitching about.


And since you edited in:  Notice how you had to caveat your own statement about realistic hacking being less fun? Yeah, that because it pretty much is.




*yes, I suffer mightily to come up with clever D&D themed names involving IT professionals. You aren't the first to notice, really.

Quote from: Spike;560264yes "rigorously plausible dooms a hacking rules set to being boring" is true of hacking,

But not what I said. What I said was more rigorously plausible. More rigorous. More plausible.

Not utterly slavish devotion to reality at every turn. But better than the fantasy sci-fi in Neuromancer or SR1.

Once again:

Being more plausible doesn't doom a game to being boring. Period.

Quote from: Spike;560264I should note that this is 'Cyberpunk' you are talking about.

And? I asked for a plausible explanation for a cyberpunk trope. And got a good one, from CRK, and a different take, from the Pundit. And had my own ideas, in the interim.

I'm not taking away VR, just the Tron cybercombat. What I was grasping for was a plausible explanation for the VR trope, so I could make my campaign more plausible, more rigorous. Like a technothriller.

I never argued that hacking in my game should and must exactly and unerringly match the real world. Any arguments against that statement—which yours are—are a waste of bandwidth.

I never said it, I don't believe it, so arguing against it is foolish.

Quote from: Spike;560264And since you edited in: Notice how you had to caveat your own statement about realistic hacking being less fun?

I have no idea to what you're referring.

What I edited in was this exact sentence: "And if I were running a cyberpunk game, I probably wouldn't either." That has nothing to do with caveats or anything. It was an attempt at being polite. True, but polite.

Collecting some responses I overlooked.

Quote from: The Traveller;559682I usually save that stuff for the dreamlands and psionics. For nethacking its a game of chess, which translates to contested rolls, traps, and where you are relative to the physical location of the hardware. Sensory VR wrecked CP2020 if you used it in the system.

Somehow I missed your post entirely. But, in part I agree. To the extent that "VR" = "virtual swordfights that can kill you", then it's the domain of the Technomancer.

To the extent that it's a more advanced UI, then it's something everyone uses and won't impact the mechanics all that much. What does, from a player's POV, is a DNI, which greatly speeds up the time it takes to hack a system.

(How much? Not sure. But it does.)

Quote from: Justin Alexander;560212For the same reason that most of them use Windows-based interfaces today: If VR or AR becomes the default interface method for computers and computer-like devices, then it's an interface that will get used for everything.

You're right. Here's the thing:

Even if we suppose a traditional Internet (which I am, more or less), but one commonly accessed through VR/AR, and hacking involves a lot of text editing (to, for example, spoof a security certificate), then the text editing program will be run from an AR/VR interface. It makes no difference to the hacker, it's just another interface to use to prep an exploit.

Thanks, Justin.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;560279Somehow I missed your post entirely. But, in part I agree. To the extent that "VR" = "virtual swordfights that can kill you", then it's the domain of the Technomancer.

Well if you wanted a good justification for over-virtualisation, it might not be that hard to postulate a future world where even passwords are unknown to their users, stored on a chip that only certain systems can access. Couple that with a difficult to forge universal ID system, and social engineering becomes a lot more difficult. Sloppy organisation and gullible users is what gets those guys traction, people will always be the weakest link, but you can certainly raise the barrier to entry from "anyone with a phone" to a well developed intelligence network.

Taking it a bit further then you have discrete systems that can't be downloaded and hacked beforehand, which is what many softhacks are, pre-existing vulnerabilities. Well technically you can, assuming the package is out there, but accessing the live system can be a very different proposition.

So I could imagine an interface that acts not just at the level of thought, but the level of subconscious instinct, where a hacker has a variety of prebuilt tools, modules, visualised as glowing icons and geometric shapes of various colours with alarm signals if attentionis needed. These modules could then be changed on the fly to adapt to challenges by mentally typing, but for the most part you'd be causing different programs to do different things with a mental gesture.

So the advantages would be speed, instinct, and better access to a potentially huge variety of tools than physical interfaces could supply. The downside, a much more realistic reason for cyberpsychosis.

Its definetely on the fringes of pseudoscience but possible I would say. I still wouldn't put the specifics into gameplay though, unless everyone in the group is a hacker.