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Pundit, to the question you ask early on in the video: I would say do both, make the content you want to make, but please keep the RPG content coming as much as you can, no matter what else is going on.
I appreciate the videos you make about RPG content, and this site being both open and a place to talk about RPGs, even while everything else is political hell. It's a great hobby and I am happy to see it sustained by more good content. And especially right now it's nice to have a unifying topic to talk to people about.
I really liked your point about the rules reflecting the world and vice-versa. That's a nice little tidbit to hang on to.
I had a thought about your point about gods throughout history always being happy about mortals praying a lot: assuming for the sake of argument that all those gods exist as such, everything we know about them is ultimately filtered through humans, even if it is divinely inspired. What if it's human hubris that led us to think they want to hear from us all the time, and it's a blind spot in our knowledge because we are full of mortal fallibility? I could imagine a god receiving a prayer and thinking "oh, this idiot again, I'm busy". The divine equivalent of picking up your phone and seeing 20 text messages from that kind of annoying person who keeps texting "Hey.".
Maybe that's an opportunity to add another dimension to prayer-based spells: ramping up the cost to decrease the potential annoyance of the god / make the prayer less likely to be annoying (and maybe improve the potential effect). Something like Shadowrun's force/drain mechanic, perhaps.
First of all, once more I am glad to see fidelity to genre being part of the conversation. ;) Secondly, I have to disagree (a bit) about humanity loss: it's representative of a central conflict within cyberpunk - humanity versus machine. The Nerve Attenuation Syndrome in Johnny Mnemonic, for example, serves a similar purpose. It's indicative of a literary theme that asks the question: is there a "too far" in going machine? But, yes, you're right, of course, that in cpunk games the main purpose is game balance, not fiction-driven. As for humanity loss for sex change: I understand why transpeople would feel offended by it - and it doesn't make really sense to me either: following the above logic, I don't think purely biological modifications should cause any loss in humanity unless you're becoming a 40K chaos spawn-like mutant.
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1094347First of all, once more I am glad to see fidelity to genre being part of the conversation. ;) Secondly, I have to disagree (a bit) about humanity loss: it's representative of a central conflict within cyberpunk - humanity versus machine. The Nerve Attenuation Syndrome in Johnny Mnemonic, for example, serves a similar purpose. It's indicative of a literary theme that asks the question: is there a "too far" in going machine?
Yep, and it's reflected in the world. The threat of cyberpsychosis drives a lot of setting. One of the qintessential Cyberpunk 2020 scenarios is the cyberpsycho going nuts in a mall or other public place, and ESWAT having to respond.
QuoteBut, yes, you're right, of course, that in cpunk games the main purpose is game balance, not fiction-driven. As for humanity loss for sex change: I understand why transpeople would feel offended by it - and it doesn't make really sense to me either: following the above logic, I don't think purely biological modifications should cause any loss in humanity unless you're becoming a 40K chaos spawn-like mutant.
Even in 2020 they can't give female reproductive organs to a male-bodied person. (AFAIK) The change is superficial and cosmetic. Like getting a bodysculpt to look like a grasshopper doesn't actually make the person into an insect. They're a very strange looking human being. So I could kind of see the argument that HL would still apply to a transgender person getting a 2020 tech sex change. Their tech doesn't make a man into a woman (or vise versa) and it still carries the setting conceit of trading humanity for technology.
Plus game balance. Players would try to avoid HL by declaring they identify as a cyborg!
Where's the bitchute version...
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1094352. Players would try to avoid HL by declaring they identify as a cyborg!
I'd say that is roughly how you deal with HL loss in the first place. It just involves a boatload of therapy, counseling, and group support to achieve.
Them you get people who say"I identify as cyborg!" Without doing any of the necessary work to actually acheive the Outlook, so they wind up screaming it while peeling the faces off people who look at them funny in the mall.
I think Pundit follows my own feelings on some of these mechanics which have no logical place in the game world but exist solely for their "balancing" aspects.
Pundit, normally I agree with you but this time you are way off the mark. The humanity loss mechanic in Cyberpunk was not a way to make sure Players don't become assholes, but a method of bringing about the atmosphere of cyberpunk literature of the time, to help emulate the genre. If you want to read Maximum Mike going off on Players being assholes with his game and creating borged out murderhobos, then you need to read the forewards to both Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads and Cybergeneration.
People sort of losing their sanity/humanity due to cybernetic implants is front and center in some stories like Snake Eyes (http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/tommaddox.html)
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1094469People sort of losing their sanity/humanity due to cybernetic implants is front and center in some stories like Snake Eyes (http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/tommaddox.html)
It is present in some stories, but cyberpunk actually had a lot of ambiguity on the issue of whether cybernetics could be a route to evolutionary transcendence or just a way of going mad or reducing yourself to a machine. The uncertain lure of interfacing with a machine is part of what makes the genre interesting.
Part of my issue too was that even if you want to make going mad an inevitable result of continued cybernetic enhancement, turning into a killing machine as the only kind of madness was fairly boring.
In the RPG, you can go a little way down the path of cybernetic modification, but there is a big brick wall you are guaranteed to slam into if you move too far along it.
I think the main mistake is thinking that the reason people lose their sanity has anything to do with cybernetics.
Plenty of examples of 100% pure humans going crazy and shooting up places.
Quote from: Shasarak;1094520I think the main mistake is thinking that the reason people lose their sanity has anything to do with cybernetics.
Plenty of examples of 100% pure humans going crazy and shooting up places.
Its not the only reason. Humanity loss is just one avenue. And yes it is possible in CP2020 to go full biological transision. If you got the therapy it cost 0 HUMANITY FOR A SEX change. The full transformation took weeks to months of genetic augmentations and vat growing new organs. It was never cheap or easy. That said I don't consider transsexuals to be transhumanists. The reason is simple, transhumanism is about exceeding human limitations, to guide their evolution to not be bound by the limitations of the flesh, to not be controlled or defined by what they are in the flesh but the mind. Changing gender is an aspect of it... A small aspect, but for the transgender community the flesh defines them and inhibits them, because their journey is tied to such s factor of sexual identity. What they have is a psychological condition called gender body dismorphia. They also usually have a brevy of other issues, that compound and aggravate the dismorphio, and it requires a combined multipronged treatment of therapy, a loving understanding community of positive growth support network and if needed medication of various sorts and maybe surgical interventions. Its a medical condition not a foundation for a philosophical theory.
Quote from: Shasarak;1094446I think Pundit follows my own feelings on some of these mechanics which have no logical place in the game world but exist solely for their "balancing" aspects.
Except we discected your argument into its component molecules a thread ago. Apparently you learned absolutely nothing as it did not suit your false narrative.
Quote from: Omega;1094772Except we discected your argument into its component molecules a thread ago. Apparently you learned absolutely nothing as it did not suit your false narrative.
We did?
Can you run the rest of us that can't remember through your arguments real quick.
Yeah, I thought so. A big fat nothing.
Quote from: Shasarak;1094520I think the main mistake is thinking that the reason people lose their sanity has anything to do with cybernetics.
Plenty of examples of 100% pure humans going crazy and shooting up places.
It was the Mr Stiffy (TM) implant that did it!
Quote from: Shasarak;1094773We did?
Can you run the rest of us that can't remember through your arguments real quick.
He was referring to that several stories within the genre of "Cyberpunk" actually include people going nuts due to bionic enhancements.
He is also ignoring the plethora of stories where it doesn't matter.
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1094347First of all, once more I am glad to see fidelity to genre being part of the conversation. ;) Secondly, I have to disagree (a bit) about humanity loss: it's representative of a central conflict within cyberpunk - humanity versus machine. The Nerve Attenuation Syndrome in Johnny Mnemonic, for example, serves a similar purpose. It's indicative of a literary theme that asks the question: is there a "too far" in going machine? But, yes, you're right, of course, that in cpunk games the main purpose is game balance, not fiction-driven. As for humanity loss for sex change: I understand why transpeople would feel offended by it - and it doesn't make really sense to me either: following the above logic, I don't think purely biological modifications should cause any loss in humanity unless you're becoming a 40K chaos spawn-like mutant.
I think that inasmuch as there are similar themes, the way cyberpunk rpgs mostly handle the humanity/cyberware issue is not very good at expressing those themes.
Quote from: Jaeger;1094375Where's the bitchute version...
It usually automatically loads a day or two after the youtube version.
Quote from: jeff37923;1094459Pundit, normally I agree with you but this time you are way off the mark. The humanity loss mechanic in Cyberpunk was not a way to make sure Players don't become assholes, but a method of bringing about the atmosphere of cyberpunk literature of the time, to help emulate the genre. If you want to read Maximum Mike going off on Players being assholes with his game and creating borged out murderhobos, then you need to read the forewards to both Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads and Cybergeneration.
What central cyberpunk novels have the "atmosphere" of people with cyber-implants losing humanity?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1095088What central cyberpunk novels have the "atmosphere" of people with cyber-implants losing humanity?
Hardwired by Walter John Williams, When Gravity Fails by George Alec Effinger, both Neuromancer and Burning Chrome by William Gibson, and AD Police (an anime which was also a cyberpunk influence on Mike Pondsmith).
I listened to your video. I feel like you undermined your premise, or maybe you're not familiar with cyberpunk 2020 (or the genre tropes).
Humanity is a metamechanic because the intent is to limit a player from having too much power. - Kinda, not really. The reason why it's not a meta-mechanic is that cyberware *is* readily available to the public as a conceit. *NOTHING* stops you from tanking the fuck up on cyberware - not even Humanity. You can drop your humanity to butt-fuck ZERO and go hog. Sure you're batshit crazy. All rolls dealing with Empathy and most social skills go flying out of the window, but no GM or player doesn't already know that going down that road LONG before you get there. To the degree that you're justifying 1) It *should* be okay for a player to avoid "meta-mechanics" in order to play how they want 2) That humanity "shouldn't" be a thing in the game - sort of goes against the idea that humanity is very much in play as a conceit.
It's not a metamechanic *because* players are indeed free to do that. I can think of at least half a dozen books relating to this - if we count comics and anime - then it skyrockets. Because we're talking about normal people - that includes the players - electively transfiguring themselves into non-human constructs that do in fact strain ones conception of the "self". Now if you want to boil it down to "But this is just a game"...
If that's the premise - then pretty much everything that exists in all RPG's that are there to "guide" the behavior of the PC's is likewise a "meta-mechanic" (Alignment, Essence, Humanity (WoD) etc). I'm not sure you're saying all such things are bad mind you - but I am saying the Humanity rules in CP2020 and the genre as a whole are pretty solidly established, and important more for Roleplaying purposes than for preventing gun-bunny's going full-metal-Solid-snake.
Again, because nothing intrinsically prevents a player from doing that. It's easier to go full-borg in CP2020 than it is to get all the equivalent mega-gear in a fantasy game. The difference is the conceits of Cyberpunk 2020 and as a genre - has direct reactions to such individuals about why/why not you should/shouldn't do such things. It's the job of the setting to set the standard of what is "acceptable". To the degree that players want to play while starting at their .5 Humanity rating and the mechanical realities that go along with that - is up to the GM to react to with the world around them.
Anyone that's played CP2020 (and pretty much any other CP-themed games I've ever seen) knows a full-borg, humanity or no humanity, is certainly not unstoppable. That humanity is a guide to dictate the behaviors of someone that has so de-humanized themselves in direct relation to other humans, both physically and psychologically - that's a different premise.
Premise #2 - Cybernetics shouldn't de-humanize you.
It's not a binary state. There ARE some damn good reasons to go full-borg. And they always have to do with doing dangerous shit. In fiction its either to bypass environmental issues, or pure unadulterated combat or paramilitary covert ops. CP2020 covers ALL of those basis with chassis that players can obtain. With high-humanity costs and options for therapy to regain humanity back to have some modicum of the ability to interact. Depends on the chassis. If you're going to want to play that concept, you need to be a special kind of person, with high Humanity scores. If the assertion is that "everyone" has the same levels of psychological stability and it shouldn't matter - I highly disagree.
People in full-borg bodies that can cope *can* easily be done in CP2020. And it's fully supported. But those people in-game would be rare individuals. Like Special Ops by comparison - those guys that can get through spec-ops training. The "limitations" you're using to justify your argument doesn't really measure up to the intent of the game - certainly not by choice of the player. You even say it in your own video, "low humanity humans would be attracted to cybernetics" - YES ... that's exactly right. That's why it's a problem. One only need to look at the low-empathy assholes in real life with what they *do* when they think they have actual power.
Cybernetics isn't the equivalent to spells in fantasy games. It's more akin to magic-items. Magic items can be taken off. How much social interaction are you going to grant to the player that insists in not taking off his +4 Plate Mail while he tries to seduce someone in order to have sex?
Devil's Advocate - You go the Savage Worlds route. Cyberwear is merely a slot-mechanic. What changes? Nothing. if you only want to have cyberwear to they gills you can - it only costs physical issues due to whatever your Strain threshold is. Once you cross it, your body starts rebelling against the amount of cyberwear you've piled on with small penalties.
What is the difference? One is physical and one is psychological. Both have relatively the same mechanical penalties. But *nothing* prevents a player from making one with all the full kit-and-kaboodle advantages and disadvantages that come with it AS setting conceit. In this regard - it's almost like saying getting Cyberwear is more like playing a different Race.
A good example of a full-body borg in action is Briaeros in Appleseed. And yeah - he's got justifiable issues.
Quote from: jeff37923;1095095Hardwired by Walter John Williams, When Gravity Fails by George Alec Effinger, both Neuromancer and Burning Chrome by William Gibson, and AD Police (an anime which was also a cyberpunk influence on Mike Pondsmith).
I haven't read all of these, but I read Neuromancer and When Gravity Fails. I don't remember the treatment of cybernetics causing the type of effects you saw in the cyberpunk game (or Shadowrun) but I may be remembering wrong?
I don't recall Neuromancer doing that either. The only certifiably crazy characters in there were Riviera, 3Jane and Armitage/Corto. Corto is the only one that comes close to anything resembling cyberpsychosis, but even then there's no indication it has anything to do with cyberimplants (https://www.shmoop.com/neuromancer/armitage-corto.html). Riviera seems to me to have been a sociopath even before implants.
Does a thing like cyberpsychosis have to have a perfectly matching example from the fiction? RPGs usually have gameified rules that don't exactly match the source material. D&D notoriously takes inspiration from multiple sources, and doesn't match any one fantasy fiction source.
I recall that something like cyberpsychosis was clearly portrayed in Robocop which came out in 1987 and CP was released in 1988. Maybe that was part of the inspiration?
Quote from: Dimitrios;1095318I recall that something like cyberpsychosis was clearly portrayed in Robocop which came out in 1987 and CP was released in 1988. Maybe that was part of the inspiration?
Probably. It's not a perfect match. The subjects in Robocop were all unprepared and didn't directly choose to become full cyborgs. IIRC the loophole OCP used is some kind of 'organ donation' where the subject is declared dead.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1095269I haven't read all of these, but I read Neuromancer and When Gravity Fails. I don't remember the treatment of cybernetics causing the type of effects you saw in the cyberpunk game (or Shadowrun) but I may be remembering wrong?
When Gravity Fails - The overall technology this setting is on par, but not as openly available with some specific important exceptions - the the "Add-Ons" (Moddys) technology is a big part of the setting where you can chip skills... including the personality of the person they recorded it from. The very construct of the technology fucks with your mind.
Neuromancer - I just re-read Neurmancer a couple of months ago. You might have a better case here. The setting of Neuromancer is "dehumanizing" rather than explicitly being due to technology. The main character Case's is damaged by neurotoxins and is rendered suicidal because he can't run the Net anymore. You might even say the cybertech GAVE him humanity. Especially given that they cured him of his drug-addictions with cybernetic implants.
This brings up a good question - maybe only *some* cyberwear might cause "humanity loss". CP2020 does a lame job of emphasizing this - via their bio-ware which they make a LOT cheaper on humanity. I personally think it's worth re-working. People are very prone to operate from an "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" mentality.
Or maybe a hybrid system of both physical and psychological effects? /shrug.
Quote from: Dimitrios;1095318I recall that something like cyberpsychosis was clearly portrayed in Robocop which came out in 1987 and CP was released in 1988. Maybe that was part of the inspiration?
Yeah I don't think most people could
easily deal with that level of bodily replacement.
Quote from: Dimitrios;1095318I recall that something like cyberpsychosis was clearly portrayed in Robocop which came out in 1987 and CP was released in 1988. Maybe that was part of the inspiration?
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1095320Probably. It's not a perfect match. The subjects in Robocop were all unprepared and didn't directly choose to become full cyborgs. IIRC the loophole OCP used is some kind of 'organ donation' where the subject is declared dead.
Quote from: tenbones;1095325Yeah I don't think most people could easily deal with that level of bodily replacement.
AD Police episode
The Man Who Bites His Tongue
QuoteThis episode stars Billy Fanword, Captain of the AD Police Spacial Mobile Squad. After sustaining massive injures due to a rouge boomer and almost dying his only remaining viable organs (brain and tongue) are transplanted into a experimental battle cyborg body. To help remind him he was once human he is seen at times biting his tongue. During the course of the episode Billy slowly loses touch with his humanity if not by a selfish and overly prideful doctor that helped to "make him" then by continuously taking ever higher does of drug DA-27 injected into his tongue to give him greater sensations that he's all but lost. It is also theorized that he acts like a tank with a human brain; smart & intelligent but with no fear of pain or death he loses touch to his human side and that impacts his performance in the field, an emotional/stimulation issue not mechanical. His ex-lover Jeena progressively tries to get him to remember his human side with no avail. After finding out the prideful doctors plan to let him die in the line of duty to rid herself of his poor performance he helps himself to massive doses of DA-27 that finally do him in. Going on a massive rampage, he kills the doctor and many of his AD Police comrades, viewing it as more like a dream than reality. Jeena is finally able to stop him with a large anti-tank gun after he pleads to her to shoot his tongue to give him pain, the only thing he has left to feel. We are left seeing his burial on the top of a high rise and Jenna reminiscing his past.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1095269I haven't read all of these, but I read Neuromancer and When Gravity Fails. I don't remember the treatment of cybernetics causing the type of effects you saw in the cyberpunk game (or Shadowrun) but I may be remembering wrong?
Quote from: tenbones;1095324When Gravity Fails - The overall technology this setting is on par, but not as openly available with some specific important exceptions - the the "Add-Ons" (Moddys) technology is a big part of the setting where you can chip skills... including the personality of the person they recorded it from. The very construct of the technology fucks with your mind.
Neuromancer - I just re-read Neurmancer a couple of months ago. You might have a better case here. The setting of Neuromancer is "dehumanizing" rather than explicitly being due to technology. The main character Case's is damaged by neurotoxins and is rendered suicidal because he can't run the Net anymore. You might even say the cybertech GAVE him humanity. Especially given that they cured him of his drug-addictions with cybernetic implants.
Pretty much what tenbones said, but in the case of
When Gravity Fails, the part I was thinking of was near the novel's end where Marid Audran uses the black daddy and becomes an inhuman animalistic killing machine that not only kills the serial killer stalking his neighborhood but also an innocent victim who he was supposed to save. The repercussions of that act alienates him from his friends and compatriots in the neighborhood, forcing him to create a new life.
Quote from: jeff37923;1095362AD Police episode The Man Who Bites His Tongue
QuoteThis episode stars Billy Fanword, Captain of the AD Police Spacial Mobile Squad. After sustaining massive injures due to a rouge boomer and almost dying his only remaining viable organs (brain and tongue) are transplanted into a experimental battle cyborg body. To help remind him he was once human he is seen at times biting his tongue. During the course of the episode Billy slowly loses touch with his humanity if not by a selfish and overly prideful doctor that helped to "make him" then by continuously taking ever higher does of drug DA-27 injected into his tongue to give him greater sensations that he's all but lost. It is also theorized that he acts like a tank with a human brain; smart & intelligent but with no fear of pain or death he loses touch to his human side and that impacts his performance in the field, an emotional/stimulation issue not mechanical. His ex-lover Jeena progressively tries to get him to remember his human side with no avail. After finding out the prideful doctors plan to let him die in the line of duty to rid herself of his poor performance he helps himself to massive doses of DA-27 that finally do him in. Going on a massive rampage, he kills the doctor and many of his AD Police comrades, viewing it as more like a dream than reality. Jeena is finally able to stop him with a large anti-tank gun after he pleads to her to shoot his tongue to give him pain, the only thing he has left to feel. We are left seeing his burial on the top of a high rise and Jenna reminiscing his past.
This reminds me of Erik Weihenmayer a blind mountain climber who uses his tongue to see (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/05/15/seeing-with-your-tongue).
It really does amaze me how far we have come compared to what people were imagining when they were writing Cyberpunk 40 years ago.
Regarding cyberpsychosis - The concept is more specific than just having some sort of psychological issues in adapting to cyberwear. The concept is that cyberwear permanently reduces your humanity, and people with a lot of cyberwear need to remove their metal in order to regain a more human viewpoint. Compared to what I think of as the classics of cyberpunk, this seems like an anti-technology theme, which idealizes low-tech.
Quote from: tenbones;1095324When Gravity Fails - The overall technology this setting is on par, but not as openly available with some specific important exceptions - the the "Add-Ons" (Moddys) technology is a big part of the setting where you can chip skills... including the personality of the person they recorded it from. The very construct of the technology fucks with your mind.
Neuromancer - I just re-read Neurmancer a couple of months ago. You might have a better case here. The setting of Neuromancer is "dehumanizing" rather than explicitly being due to technology. The main character Case's is damaged by neurotoxins and is rendered suicidal because he can't run the Net anymore. You might even say the cybertech GAVE him humanity. Especially given that they cured him of his drug-addictions with cybernetic implants.
This is on the nose for me. From my view of cyberpunk, it's the dystopian *society* that's dehumanizing, not metallic implants. An office worker with no implants is just as dehumanized here, and the punk part of it is that tech-loving hackers are actually gaining humanity by their mods and hacking. There are lots of people who are crazy, it doesn't correlate with technology. i.e. The better-adjusted people aren't the ones without technology and only their natural brains. People without tech are all the more confused and isolated in the topsy-turvy world that technology has created.
Quote from: DimitriosI recall that something like cyberpsychosis was clearly portrayed in Robocop which came out in 1987 and CP was released in 1988. Maybe that was part of the inspiration?
Quote from: tenbones;1095325Yeah I don't think most people could easily deal with that level of bodily replacement.
I can see this as an inspiration - but Alex's lack of humanity wasn't an accidental side-effect of his bodily replacement. It was an *intentional* part of the operation. The company wanted an operative that was programmable, with no prior memory, but still having some of the context and situational awareness of a human. I think that's a hugely different theme from an individual who goes psycho because they have too much cyberwear. The point of the film was that Alex was still *more* human than the technologically unmodified corporate suits.
Cyberpsychosis and humanity loss from tech adds a lot to the setting and gameplay of CP2020, regardless if it works as direct genre emulation. In fact, it should be seen as Mike Pondsmith's contribution to the genre instead of some sort of failure.
Yes, its a game balancing mechanic, but its one with vast setting implications that increases the dystopian feel during gameplay. To me, that's the best kind of mechanics in any game.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1095411Cyberpsychosis and humanity loss from tech adds a lot to the setting and gameplay of CP2020, regardless if it works as direct genre emulation. In fact, it should be seen as Mike Pondsmith's contribution to the genre instead of some sort of failure.
Yes, its a game balancing mechanic, but its one with vast setting implications that increases the dystopian feel during gameplay. To me, that's the best kind of mechanics in any game.
Agreed. It emphasizes that the dystopia itself is dehumanizing. Seen this way, cyberpunk is humanity rebelling against dehumanization.
Quote from: RandyB;1095423Agreed. It emphasizes that the dystopia itself is dehumanizing. Seen this way, cyberpunk is humanity rebelling against dehumanization.
Hell no. Humanity, or a certain part of it, is deliberately riding on the edge of dehumanization.
I know I was the one that brought up the idea of "society being de-humanizing" as an observation. But I was on my Throne of Contemplation, and in between grunts, I realized that was a cop-out thought. Here's why.
"Humanity" as a gaming mechanic is speaking to an absolute spectrum. Degrees of "humanity" in terms of environmental conditions is not. It only dictates the conditions under which optimal and less optimal *amounts* of "Humanity" can exist. In other words, it's *difficult* to have high "Humanity" and live optimally in a de-humanizing environment.
But you CAN do it. It's a choice by the individual. In order to even make that choice - in game terms - you have to have a high Empathy stat.
The inverse of this is true as well. Choosing to do live optimally in a de-humanizing environment is most optimal by pursuing implants that lower your humanity. Nothing prevents you - in setting - from going either direction. In fact, I think this is the best argument against Pundit's roundabout assertion that Humanity exists only as a mechanic to stop players from getting "too powerful".
Because getting cyberware as a conceit of the game isn't difficult. SOME things are... but if you really want 95% of what makes going fully 'borg possible in ghetto-mode (i.e. no specific borg-chassis - just total ad-hoc replacement) it is actually quite trivial. Just takes healing time and money/parts. And let's assume Humanity isn't even an issue for the sake of discussion. Nothing prevents this. Even as a player you can stack your stats for maximum Humanity expressly for this purpose. And we all know why people want to go full borg: to put the metal down for maximal ass-whipping. Right? Well this also parallels my assertion that in a de-humanized world maximal optimization for survival would require less "Humanity"...
My contention is the *REAL* conflict here, the point where the rubber hits the road in cyberpunk fiction is the *tension* between staying "human" vs. the lure of "dehumanizing" by ones OWN volition because you're willing to chance the consequences of that act.
The supporting claim to this idea which supports the idea of Humanity/Strain/Sanity mechanics is that in CP2020, to those that are under the misapprehension that going full-borg is the end-all be all of combat are *sadly* mistaken. Because if you're running the kind of campaign when PC's can and do go full-borg for the purposes of gunning down dozens of people... those are the same campaigns where you can arbitrarily just pull out Powered Armor from Maximum Metal - which outperform most actual Borg Chassis (from the same book) and cost PRECISELY ZERO humanity to operate and do the exact same thing, even on a greater scale.
TL/DR Humanity mechanics are not to limit players for reasons of power-gaming. They're there for roleplaying purposes where the conceits of the very genre are to create tension between the PC and the environment itself.
Quote from: RandyB;1095423cyberpunk is humanity rebelling against dehumanization.
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095426Humanity, or a certain part of it, is deliberately riding on the edge of dehumanization.
These are two perfectly good character concepts for cyberpunk. You can be the PC who rebels against the societal dehumanization, or you can be the PC who surfs the dystopia, and both these PCs exist until the dystopia swallows them whole or eats their souls piece by piece.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1095454These are two perfectly good character concepts for cyberpunk. You can be the PC who rebels against the societal dehumanization, or you can be the PC who surfs the dystopia, and both these PCs exist until the dystopia swallows them whole or eats their souls piece by piece.
I have discovered that I can only claim independent discovery of the "rebellion against dehumanization" idea.
Quote from: Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads!!!!, p. 93Cyberpunk is about the dehumanization of man, and the primordial urge to return to "humanity."
This has likely been said but look how dehumanizing a handheld computer you can put in your pocket has been. It's not a far stretch to imagine cyberpsychosis being a thing.
Style over Substance
Attitude is Everything
Always take it to the Edge
Break the Rules
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095740Style over Substance
Attitude is Everything
Always take it to the Edge
Break the Rules
I believe that was in Pee Wee's Playhouse Season 1, Episode 3.
Quote from: tenbones;1095447My contention is the *REAL* conflict here, the point where the rubber hits the road in cyberpunk fiction is the *tension* between staying "human" vs. the lure of "dehumanizing" by ones OWN volition because you're willing to chance the consequences of that act..
You're talking as though changing Empathy stat means something in game on a sliding scale, that someone with an Empathy of 5 is different to someone of an Empathy of 0.1. They're not. Despite being a number, in game terms in CP2020 Empathy is either/or. It's either above 0, in which case play on, or it's 0, in which case hand your character sheet to the DM.
This differs from Cthulhu's Sanity in that, while starting SAN meant nothing,
losing Sanity gave you a chance to acquire various mental disorders along the way. This had the strange effect that someone who gradually whittled down from 95 to 10 SAN ended up with more problems than someone who went from 20 to 10 SAN.
What you are saying would make more sense if the CP2020 Empathy stat were tied to other things, for example you lose contacts and patrons as your Emp declines, or become more likely to be sent on suicide missions, etc. Of course this can all be roleplayed, my point is that it's not baked-in to the rules as it is with Sanity.
Quote from: RandyB;1095727I have discovered that I can only claim independent discovery of the "rebellion against dehumanization" idea.
Excellent! Then I will steal it directly from you!
It's a great "rage against the machine" concept. It's not just "rage against corps", but "rage against the tech that's devouring us all".
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095819You're talking as though changing Empathy stat means something in game on a sliding scale, that someone with an Empathy of 5 is different to someone of an Empathy of 0.1. They're not. Despite being a number, in game terms in CP2020 Empathy is either/or. It's either above 0, in which case play on, or it's 0, in which case hand your character sheet to the DM.
This differs from Cthulhu's Sanity in that, while starting SAN meant nothing, losing Sanity gave you a chance to acquire various mental disorders along the way. This had the strange effect that someone who gradually whittled down from 95 to 10 SAN ended up with more problems than someone who went from 20 to 10 SAN.
What you are saying would make more sense if the CP2020 Empathy stat were tied to other things, for example you lose contacts and patrons as your Emp declines, or become more likely to be sent on suicide missions, etc. Of course this can all be roleplayed, my point is that it's not baked-in to the rules as it is with Sanity.
The Cyberpunk 2020 Empathy stat
is tied to other things, skills and your ability to use them advantageously. Human Perception, Interview, Leadership, Seduction, Social, Persuasion & Fast Talk, and Perform are all skills that use Empathy as a base stat when it comes to making a skill roll. It is baked-in to the rules.
In theory, yes. In practice, in CP2020 as in other games, social skills are usually set aside in favour of roleplaying. If the player is too socially dumb or can't be bothered roleplaying it, then and only then does their Interview(etc) skill level matter.
As well, the simple fact is that the system has character classes, and the sort of character class which benefits from most of the cyber stuff (the warrior and net guys) won't use the social skills much anyway, the sort of character who uses a lot of social skills won't have much need for cyber stuff. In other words, it doesn't matter if the fighter's plate mail makes it harder for him to get along with peasants, he's not doing the talking anyway.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1095738This has likely been said but look how dehumanizing a handheld computer you can put in your pocket has been. It's not a far stretch to imagine cyberpsychosis being a thing.
Well psychosis is definitely a thing. Bit of a stretch to blame it on your phone though.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095829In theory, yes. In practice, in CP2020 as in other games, social skills are usually set aside in favour of roleplaying. If the player is too socially dumb or can't be bothered roleplaying it, then and only then does their Interview(etc) skill level matter.
This is where GMing a game becomes more Art than Science in my book. I can't remember when I've set aside skill rolls in favor of roleplaying. Roleplaying may create a modifier to the skill roll, but the skill roll remains because to do otherwise is to cheat the Player.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095829As well, the simple fact is that the system has character classes, and the sort of character class which benefits from most of the cyber stuff (the warrior and net guys) won't use the social skills much anyway, the sort of character who uses a lot of social skills won't have much need for cyber stuff. In other words, it doesn't matter if the fighter's plate mail makes it harder for him to get along with peasants, he's not doing the talking anyway.
Um, OK. Have you actually ever read the rules or played the game
Cyberpunk 2020? What you are saying does not reflect my actual play experience with the game.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095829In theory, yes. In practice, in CP2020 as in other games, social skills are usually set aside in favour of roleplaying. If the player is too socially dumb or can't be bothered roleplaying it, then and only then does their Interview(etc) skill level matter.
As well, the simple fact is that the system has character classes, and the sort of character class which benefits from most of the cyber stuff (the warrior and net guys) won't use the social skills much anyway, the sort of character who uses a lot of social skills won't have much need for cyber stuff. In other words, it doesn't matter if the fighter's plate mail makes it harder for him to get along with peasants, he's not doing the talking anyway.
CP2020 was the game that actually got us making "fighters who talked to peasants". We realized that the "bard" could scream out on two wheels while spraying a smart subbie, the computer geek could schmooze the ladies in a high-end suit and the armored cyber-warrior was able talking down the frothing psycho gang. It broke classes to smithereens for us.
Quote from: Shasarak;1095830Well psychosis is definitely a thing. Bit of a stretch to blame it on your phone though.
I disagree. People allow things to disconnect them from others and installing said things into you adds to the disconnect.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1095853I disagree. People allow things to disconnect them from others and installing said things into you adds to the disconnect.
If you want to follow it all the way down the rabbit hole then you can install an app that helps you to connect with someone. I listened to a TED talk done by a blind Japanese scientist who uses the facial recognition features on her phone to "see" people and their expressions. And that is right now. In Cyberpunk I could imagine an inbuilt AI that could not only feed you social cues but also could monitor your mental health in real time and if necessary administer medicine as needed.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095829In theory, yes. In practice, in CP2020 as in other games, social skills are usually set aside in favour of roleplaying.
Can't confirm. When your Empathy start drops to a certain level (lets say 3), then you still get to play the conversation out but as a GM I interpret it as being merely what your character originally wants to say. But what comes actually out of the mouth might be a bit different, depending on your dice roll.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1095853CP2020 was the game that actually got us making "fighters who talked to peasants". We realized that the "bard" could scream out on two wheels while spraying a smart subbie, the computer geek could schmooze the ladies in a high-end suit and the armored cyber-warrior was able talking down the frothing psycho gang. It broke classes to smithereens for us.
CoC did that for me.
Quote from: Shasarak;1095867If you want to follow it all the way down the rabbit hole then you can install an app that helps you to connect with someone. I listened to a TED talk done by a blind Japanese scientist who uses the facial recognition features on her phone to "see" people and their expressions. And that is right now. In Cyberpunk I could imagine an inbuilt AI that could not only feed you social cues but also could monitor your mental health in real time and if necessary administer medicine as needed.
Just chip it in.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095829In theory, yes. In practice, in CP2020 as in other games, social skills are usually set aside in favour of roleplaying.
At my table, you roleplay your Empathy score. Just like you roleplay your SAN score and SAN losses.
Otherwise, WTF? You'd be missing some of the coolest roleplay aspects of the game.
Players of 'borgs were always having fun with their low Empathy scores, a few players were really good at creeping out the table with random quips that showed how far they slid away from "normal human." It was like how people enjoyed the negative side of Crazies and Juicers in RIFTS.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095819You're talking as though changing Empathy stat means something in game on a sliding scale, that someone with an Empathy of 5 is different to someone of an Empathy of 0.1. They're not. Despite being a number, in game terms in CP2020 Empathy is either/or. It's either above 0, in which case play on, or it's 0, in which case hand your character sheet to the DM.
Empathy is an actual stat you use for most of the Social skills in the game? What do you mean that there is no difference? I mean... are you talking about "Humanity"? or Empathy? Humanity are increments of 10 per Empathy stat.
Now - the zero Empathy point is true. But there still is a *direct* impact of having Empathy 5 vs. Empathy 1 (Humanity .01) in terms of basic mechanics of play in terms of social interaction. Of course the point *IS* that if you have low-Humanity, your Empathy is low, your social interaction is going to suck - because the only thing you'll be good at is anti-social asswhipping (presumably).
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095819This differs from Cthulhu's Sanity in that, while starting SAN meant nothing, losing Sanity gave you a chance to acquire various mental disorders along the way. This had the strange effect that someone who gradually whittled down from 95 to 10 SAN ended up with more problems than someone who went from 20 to 10 SAN.
Yep. For *years* I know a lot of CP2020 groups use the Cthulhu Sanity rules directly as SAN-to-Humanity with a few tweaks. Cyberpsychosis is supposed to be reflected directly in the impact of Humanity-to-Empathy. But CP2020 never wanted to get "bogged down" in Sanity rules etc. (which I personally think was a mistake) - but they cover the effects of Empathy loss in the Cyberpsychosis section pretty basically.
Likewise - once you get to zero Empathy, you can (and yeah it's insanely rare - I've only seen my players do it once) capture the PC and have their cyberware removed and undergo therapy to regain their humanity back. But yeah... it's easier to just kill them. LOL
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1095819What you are saying would make more sense if the CP2020 Empathy stat were tied to other things, for example you lose contacts and patrons as your Emp declines, or become more likely to be sent on suicide missions, etc. Of course this can all be roleplayed, my point is that it's not baked-in to the rules as it is with Sanity.
As I said above - it IS tied to your Empathy-based skills: Human Perception, Interview, Leadership, Seduction, Social, Persuasion Fast/Talk, Perform. When you drop that Empathy, those skills - which in my games, generally, are a huge deal, that's a big hit. For some PC's this is fine. A combat-monkey probably isn't going to be doing a lot of Persuasion vs. using Intimidation which Empathy has no impact (it's a Cool skill).
I've enjoyed being reminded of CP2020 by these threads after not playing it for years. I just remembered that the FNFF section has a "Random bad Hollywood movie effects" table for how NPCs react to getting shot.:D
I was just talking to a friend of mine saying I like that CP2020 is "realistic with a nice dash of bullshit".
Edit: And I'm liking the "streamlining" they're indicating from their blog. Makes a lot of sense - and one being the high-Reflex can make an opposed check to "Dodge" - which comes from their Mekton Roadstrikers rules (I made it a piece of "Bullet Time" Cyberware). They're making it for Reflex 9 characters or higher.
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1095874CoC did that for me.
DnD did it for me.
Quote from: Dimitrios;1096064I've enjoyed being reminded of CP2020 by these threads after not playing it for years. I just remembered that the FNFF section has a "Random bad Hollywood movie effects" table for how NPCs react to getting shot.:D
Oh, yeah! That is such a cool bit.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1096102Oh, yeah! That is such a cool bit.
Has anyone tried the alternative combat systems in
Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads!!!! , High Noon Shootout and Saturday Night Fistfight?
Quote from: RandyB;1096141Has anyone tried the alternative combat systems in Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads!!!! , High Noon Shootout and Saturday Night Fistfight?
I didn't like it. FNFF worked fine for me with just a couple rules tweaks. The HNS and SNF rules were supposed to make it faster, but they did it at the expense of (in my group) the players feeling like they knew exactly what was going on.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;1096144I didn't like it. FNFF worked fine for me with just a couple rules tweaks. The HNS and SNF rules were supposed to make it faster, but they did it at the expense of (in my group) the players feeling like they knew exactly what was going on.
That's the kind of feedback I was hoping for. Thanks!