Quote from: Dr Rotwang!You want contradictions?
 
Mike Pondsmith, author of Cyberpunk 2020: "Cyberpunk should be played kind of like the film Casablanca, with glittering parties, fast dates, betrayals and stuf."
 
Cyberpunk 2020 Product Line: "This month: a new book of guns! Next month: More guns!"

So sad, but so true.
 
It took me many years to really understand that a cyberpunk game is not about crunchy rules and a big list of guns and cyberwear. Now I yearn for the ultimate, lightweight cyberpunk game.
 
It will be mine... oh yes, it will be.

Quote from: SettembriniI´ve been thinking about about inherent contradictions in Cyberpunk lately.
 
I´d say there are several conflicting things in the published materiél.
 
Does anybody else think so?
What are your experiences?

*I've been trying to write a response to this all morning, but it keeps turning into a multi-page rant.*
 
CP2020, with a few house rules, a decent GM and players who dont think world.guns.ru is a hardcore porn site, can be a terrific game.
Sadly much of my CP2020 experience has been with the wrong players, and it's not easy to maintain enthusiasm for a broken game when a significant amount of the players want to indulge their Columbine fantasies on paper.
 
The biggest conflicting thing in CP2020 is Mike Pondsmith.
On one hand, he brags about the realism of the combat rules and sneers at lesser systems, then offloads steaming piles of turd like the Netrunning rules, Cyberpsychosis, the Techie class (Jury rig? FFS!) and the easy availability of milspec weapons and armour. Then instead of encouraging GMs to stand up to players who seize the opportunity to munchkin out that he's just handed them on paper, he just tells them to send bigger and badder foes against the players (the cannon adventures are filled with overpowered mooks) - because no player confronted with unrealistically badass foes will ever think of building a more badass character to start with. Then he makes the comment that he can't beleive the sort of characters folks are playing CP2020 with. :rolleyes:

Quote from: O'Borg. . . just tells them to send bigger and badder foes against the players (the cannon adventures are filled with overpowered mooks)

there's something called "the cannon adventures"?  i'd make a munchkin combat monster too, for something like that!  "next, the 36-pounder, and his sidekicks, the culverins"



couldn't resist

and whaddya mean, world.guns.ru isn't a porn site?

There actually IS a Streetfighting adventure anthology, that´s canon as well as cannon!

are ken and ryu in there?  and sagat as a boss?

Quote from: beeberthere's something called "the cannon adventures"? i'd make a munchkin combat monster too, for something like that! "next, the 36-pounder, and his sidekicks, the culverins"
 

 
couldn't resist
 
and whaddya mean, world.guns.ru isn't a porn site?

D'Oh!
This is because I referred to Blackhands Street Weapons as a book of canon cannons in a prep email for my PBeM game recently

Necroing this thread to let everyone know that Cyberpunk 2020 is up on Bundle of Holding.

Quote from: Settembrini;123767I´ve been thinking about about inherent contradictions in Cyberpunk lately.

I´d say there are several conflicting things in the published materiél.

Does anybody else think so?
What are your experiences?

Looks like a fun necro-thread! Challenge accepted!

Quote from: Settembrini;123767lethality vs. damage/armor ratio

I think they nailed it. The conceit of the cyberpunk milieu is that life, like the rest of the crass adornments of society - cheap and replaceable. The lethality of the game is by default supposed to be high-octane as a measure of making players be damned sure they want to draw-down because whatever meager protection you have is likely going to be insufficient to deal with prolonged combat.

Another misconception is that everyone is running around with military-grade hardware. Sure you can run your games like that - but that's like playing D&D and handing out +4 weapons to everyone at 1st level. Yes the game can and often should escalate to that level of lethality, but there is a huge gap between the conceits of a starting game and this level. This is not a contradiction in mechanics - most body-armors cannot withstand prolonged fire from high-caliber rounds.  

Quote from: Settembrini;123767prevalence of heavy weapons and armor vs. combat rules and their implications; linked to the first point

The vast majority of character-available weapons are not heavy-weapons. In fact, in the base-book outside of the Barrett-Arasaka .50-cal, which is used exclusively by C-SWAT and military personnel against full-body conversion, the only heavy weapons are explosives. There are variants of these weapons in later books - but they all occupy the same class and use of weaponry of the setting: highly restricted military/paramilitary hardware. If you're letting your PC's run around with these things in broad daylight in Corporate Sectors without some really good reasons (like - being C-SWAT or some other appropriate personnel), you're probably not understanding the setting conceits.

Quote from: Settembrini;123767professionals vs punks

This is quintessentially cyberpunk. Granted they operate at different ends of the social spectrum. Professionals in the game are those trying to work their way up the ladder, and it is very useful to have contacts on the streets for various things that might help that rise. Whether that means having street-friends that can land you some good blow for the boss's private party, or new un-licensed street-tech you can nab for R&D, or whatever. The reverse is true too - being a street-rat with a friend in the Corp Sector means a *safe* crash-space, possible means to a steady income, or just some scratch for the near future. Who knows? Maybe a nice corporate job. The idea is that these are not contradictions as much as they symbiotic poles of a very stratified assumed culture.

Quote from: Settembrini;123767tactical approach vs. cinematic, fast paced action

A little from column A, a little from column B. The mechanics are definitely tactical. The cinematic is pure narrative touch to simulate the relative short curve on the math. You can land a virtual kill-shot 10% of the time (barring armor etc). This too isn't a contradiction, just a license to be creative. And the tactical part never goes away. If you aren't being tactical in your approach to combat in CP2020, you are going to *die*.

Quote from: Settembrini;123767internal logic/"realism" vs. combat zone

If you read "Home of the Brave" (a fantastic sourcebook for CP2020) it goes into superb detail of why this is. It's basic economics. The nation is essentially bankrupt, it doesn't have enough wealth to feed everyone. More to the point, corporate interest is strong enough to allow zoning rules that demand and can pay for the security to keep undesireables out of corporate zones. How? Simple. Corporations support their own security in their own zones. Unless you have a reason to be there - you're not allowed in. Multiply this by the number of corporations in your city and you'll create a patchwork of places streetscrubs simply can't go to. The "Combat Zone" is essentially nomenclature that is an expression of those places where the disenfranchised are stuck. And in CP2020 it's dog-eat-dog.

The internal logic of the setting is sound - except for where it expressly has the state acknowledging these places as some form of legitimate locations within the municipality. As such - it's a reflection of the deep cynical corruption inherent to the setting (which imo is very appropriate for the genre) than it is to being a contradiction.

Quote from: Settembrini;123767detailed NetRunning vs. fast paced action

/sigh. You got me on this one. Chalk this up to late-80's understanding of computer-technology and relatively new game-design. Internally it works great IF you're a Netrunner. If not - it sucks. If you'd like to see a great way to see how it should be done - check out Interface Zero for Savage Worlds. Their hacking rules are *excellent*. All meat, no fat.

Quote from: Settembrini;123767style vs. substance

CP2020 is a setting whose conceits are that over-commercial society has bred a culture that values the style of things over almost all else. This is part of what drives the cyberpunk pathos. The PUNK in cyberpunk is the attempt of exalting the individual over the clamor of the calcified banality masquerading as pop-culture. The raging against the machine, so to speak. Looking good doing it is the paradox that makes it fun. And if you don't care about all that stuff - that's what the bullets are for. Lead is all the substance you need, in the end.

I could argue that the Game posits a conflict between style and substance, rather than demanding an answer.  The fluff text and in-character bits scattered about inevitably fall on the side of Style, but the rules encourage a substance approach.  Spending an additional d6 humanity to chrome plate your arm is the Style way to go, but in the rules/Substance world it's foolish and pointless... its not like pursing Style actually gains you anything within the realm of rules... no bonuses to social interactions, no meta-rules increasing rep... nada. You just get to tell everyone how very shiny your arm is.

That's not universal, few things are, but it is pretty consistent. Almost everything stylish is tactically (substance) a bad choice, mechanically bad.  

So as a conflict, as established in the very sentiment, its actually a brilliant expression of the theme.

Quote from: Spike;970202I could argue that the Game posits a conflict between style and substance, rather than demanding an answer.  The fluff text and in-character bits scattered about inevitably fall on the side of Style, but the rules encourage a substance approach.  Spending an additional d6 humanity to chrome plate your arm is the Style way to go, but in the rules/Substance world it's foolish and pointless... its not like pursing Style actually gains you anything within the realm of rules... no bonuses to social interactions, no meta-rules increasing rep... nada. You just get to tell everyone how very shiny your arm is.

That's not universal, few things are, but it is pretty consistent. Almost everything stylish is tactically (substance) a bad choice, mechanically bad.  

So as a conflict, as established in the very sentiment, its actually a brilliant expression of the theme.

That is exactly right. The reason why, from a game standpoint, is because players will almost *always* err on the side of what is substantially better. Style be damned! The trick is for the GM's to make it matter socially.

Well, from there the setting is built to favor Style, which is why the initial emphasis is on Street characters and stories, why the Rockerboy is a serious archetype (as is the Nomad which is presented as an alternative to the Solo... when in reality its real role is either as a mover (vehicles) or in support (summoning hordes of useful NPCs)...).

We tend to dismiss the psychological aspect of setting design and presentation on table play, but I wouldn't be surprised to find most players did sacrifice at least some tactical utility for 'flash' simply because the book(s) were so relentlessly clever about hyping style.  I mean: Tactical Guy may win all the fights in the rules (or not... the system is unforgivingly lethal after all), but everyone remembers Johnny Silverhand!

Without getting all meta about it, CP2020 really does encourage you to find a style for Your Guy... and that means balancing out Substance.

Quote from: Spike;970204Well, from there the setting is built to favor Style, which is why the initial emphasis is on Street characters and stories, why the Rockerboy is a serious archetype (as is the Nomad which is presented as an alternative to the Solo... when in reality its real role is either as a mover (vehicles) or in support (summoning hordes of useful NPCs)...).

We tend to dismiss the psychological aspect of setting design and presentation on table play, but I wouldn't be surprised to find most players did sacrifice at least some tactical utility for 'flash' simply because the book(s) were so relentlessly clever about hyping style.  I mean: Tactical Guy may win all the fights in the rules (or not... the system is unforgivingly lethal after all), but everyone remembers Johnny Silverhand!

Without getting all meta about it, CP2020 really does encourage you to find a style for Your Guy... and that means balancing out Substance.

Hah! but it does balance out in it's own weird way. Johnny Silverhand gets slagged. Morgan Blackhand, the posterboy to Substance vs. Silverhands Style, is the one that survives. Even in their thin metaplot, reality asserts itself. But! Silverhand is the one that is still remembered most.

In the corebook: Drugs are bad. Even beer. In the future, beer is obsolete, people drink Smash instead, which is just as addictive and damaging to your health as heroin, and makes you go into a berserk killing rage besides.  

Also in the corebook: All the cool bars in Night City just brew their own old-fashioned beer, so that PC's can actually go to bars in search of adventure and quest-givers without having to drink a mug of rage-heroin. Nobody in any of the supplements or adventures ever drinks Smash, and Smash is never mentioned again.

Derp.

And then you pick up Nights Edge and all hell breaks loose. :cool:

I mostly remember the cyborg stuff, language and guns. Now that I have the Core book again I'm looking forward to revisting it. How did y'all find its netrunning/hacking rules? I don't recall them but they're usually the weak point of most cyberpunk RPGs in my experience.