I´ve been thinking about about inherent contradictions in Cyberpunk lately.

I´d say there are several conflicting things in the published materiél.

Does anybody else think so?
What are your experiences?

Examples:
lethality vs. damage/armor ratio

prevalence of heavy weapons and armor vs. combat rules and their implications; linked to the first point

professionals vs punks

tactical approach vs. cinematic, fast paced action

internal logic/"realism" vs. combat zone

detailed NetRunning vs. fast paced action

style vs. substance

Quote from: SettembriniProfessional vs Punk

This debate has raged for along time between me and some people, mainly concerning Shadowrun-but yeah I harbor the same grudge against Punk in this game too.

In my games Punk is good for some comic relief, but the players and I are on the same page-it's a fast way to a long walk off a short pier.

Quote from: SettembriniI´ve been thinking about about inherent contradictions in Cyberpunk lately.

I´d say there are several conflicting things in the published materiél.

Does anybody else think so?
What are your experiences?

Examples:
lethality vs. damage/armor ratio

prevalence of heavy weapons and armor vs. combat rules and their implications; linked to the first point

My experience with CP2020 It is a lethal game. I found most of my players leaned toward heavier weapons. So armor did help mooks as much. Or my players for that matter. I also injected a little reality in to my game. By that I mean if you arm was just blown off or rendered useless. That victim is not really worried about the guy shooting but how his arm is fucked. Rendering him out of the picture.
professionals vs punks

Quote from: Settembrinitactical approach vs. cinematic, fast paced action

i think you can have it both ways. Sometime tactly can start slowly. Being planned. But both can erupt into nonstop action, excitment.

Quote from: Settembriniinternal logic/"realism" vs. combat zone

Im not sure I know what you mean by this. Are you talking about being an armchair quartereback so to speak looking at a situation. As opposed to a truely adrenaline filled situation?

Quote from: Settembrinidetailed NetRunning vs. fast paced action

Yeah this is one I have struggled with my self. I never played a net runner, and none of my players every did either. I theory it should be just as high pace as any combat. (obviously depending on the situation)  But in practice I have not been able to achieve that myself.

Quote from: Settembrinistyle vs. substance

DOnt really have a good answer for this one. Let me think about it I'll get back to it.

Quote from: RoninI´m not sure I know what you mean by this. Are you talking about being an armchair quartereback so to speak looking at a situation. As opposed to a truely adrenaline filled situation?

No, I just think the combat zones are a major fuck up in suspension of disbelief. You need a lot of rationalizing and re-fitting to make them feasible. And the more feasible they are, the less combat-zoney they become.
As an over-the-top element they work splendidly, compare "Combat-Cab".
But the concept doesn´t go well together with the ecologized rest of the setting.

You want contradictions?

Mike Pondsmith, author of Cyberpunk 2020: "Cyberpunk should be played kind of like the film Casablanca, with glittering parties, fast dates, betrayals and stuf."

Cyberpunk 2020 Product Line: "This month: a new book of guns!  Next month: More guns!"

"Drugs are bad" ....remember folks "style over substance"

Regards,
David R

Rotwang:

I read your review, and it was reinforcing my opinion I built upon my own experiences. Good stuff.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Cyberpunk 2020 Product Line: "This month: a new book of guns!  Next month: More guns!"

what were the names of those supplements?  i want to get 'em cheap on ebay!  (see thread of mine for interest of similar subject matter)



:verkill:

I wonder if RTG just published more and more toybooks because that's what sold?

Well, it WAS reinforced by the published scenarios!
They are DEADLY without the latest gear!

Never seen one of them Casablanca adventures.

Quote from: SettembriniNo, I just think the combat zones are a major fuck up in suspension of disbelief. You need a lot of rationalizing and re-fitting to make them feasible. And the more feasible they are, the less combat-zoney they become.
As an over-the-top element they work splendidly, compare "Combat-Cab".
But the concept doesn´t go well together with the ecologized rest of the setting.

Ok I see what you mean now. I got to disagree with you. I see it more as a urban ghetto. But far more dangerous. Their are places in real life that pretty much are combat zones. Look at some of the housing projects in the some of the big cities in the US. Chicago, Illinois home of the Cabrini-Green Housing projects. Or closer to me the Jeffries, or Brewster-Douglas Projects in Detroit. These were fucked up places to live. And you sure as hell didnt visit. Unless your buying drugs or picking hookers. Either way you sure as hell werent ever safe. Hell in the Cabrini-Green gangs controlled entire biuldings. A lot of these in the early 90's were torn down or renovated. But these kind of places still exist. I've even seen it in my town here of lansing. There are places that are just dangerous to go. That if your not from there you shouldnt go there.
Now to look to the future. Where their is readily available combat cyberwear to those that can afford it. The ultimate in concealed weapons. Powerful designer drugs run rampant. High powered automatic weapons now rule the day. Even more so now than in the past. Every one has given up on the area. Cops fear for their lives. Patrols becoming less and less frequent. Or worst yet are paid off by the gangs turning a blind eye to the madness. They are the ultimate evolution of the urban ghetto. The darkest part of the dark future.

Quote from: Settembrinilethality vs. damage/armor ratio

prevalence of heavy weapons and armor vs. combat rules and their implications; linked to the first point

Yeah, damage:armor ration in by-the-book CP2020 doesn't work out. My quick-fix was to halve all SPs - armor is still useful, but you won't completely on a pistol anymore. (Unless it's one of those 5-6mm joke articles... But who doesn't?)

Quote from: Settembriniprofessionals vs punks

Depends on the campaign - PsychoSquad gives you access to other free equipment and perks than, let's say, Boosters or Nomads.
(However, I prefer the punk angle. There is so much freaky stuff like the arc thrower cyberarm or the combat drugs that it would be a waste of material to neglect them.)

Quote from: Settembrinitactical approach vs. cinematic, fast paced action

I'd say that the tactical approach is way more present. a.) you don't get support for cinematic stuff like running around in akimbo style (that even cuts down your chances) and b.) are maneuvers and positioning the only real source of influence in combat.

Quote from: Settembriniinternal logic/"realism" vs. combat zone

I just treat it as a "there are chromed monsters" shithole and don't think to hard about it.

Quote from: Settembrinidetailed NetRunning vs. fast paced action

I've never seen netrunner action in actual play; can't say anything educated about it.


Regarding Casablanca, the closest to it what I'd know is the adventure in WGF. Until about the middle of it where it once again turns into a kill'em smash-fest.

I thought of a better example of a real life combat zone. The West bank. Not only is it the Arab vs Isreal. Its also normal folks, criminals, and everything else. Work'n for a livin in a strange mix of tradition, and modern values and items.

Alas, the killings there are lower per capita than those in Washington D.C.
The "Big Turf" War in Gaza and the West Bank yielded less than 50 dead, and was on all international media.

There´s no need for ridiculous combat cabs, body lottery and the like.

The only thing akin to what the combat zones are described, is the city of Falludja in 2004.
And that was fueled by (at least) two external parties.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I wonder if RTG just published more and more toybooks because that's what sold?

That's been the reasoning that I've encountered so far.

If you compare Cyperpunk 2020 to Cybergeneration, you get some interesting contrasts even though they were made by the same guy. Cyberpunk 2020 seems to be the more traditional approach to the genre while Cybergeneration seems to have more of a story-games approach to the genre.