TheRPGSite

I freely admit I have lead a fairly sheltered gaming life playing mostly with long term groups of friends in long running games. I did spend a couple of years running Encounters at a local store where anyone could show up and you ran into different personalities.

Today I ran across an article that implied that including cursed magic items is a dick GMing move.

Is this a thing in the wider community?

I guess looking back, 4e was bereft of cursed magic items but I didn't realize this was a conscious move. When we have used them in our groups there was either a story element or way to make them ultimately useful. We never used a "Cursed Scroll" now go save versus death or anything like that.

So I guess I'm just looking for perspective.

What is considered dick GMing? Cursed anything? Spell corruption? Rust monsters?

Do you tiptoe around these things or how much of a story reason do you have to have before you include them?

You should fix your title.:)

But no it's not a community wide thing you just have to use them for a reason like your group. For example I was running a 6/6 elf F/M in a 2e game and my GM loved Blood of the Fold and Temple of Winds of the Sword of Truth books...guess who got the Burger King crown until I leveled to 7/8 after a total buy in for the story arc he planned?

Quote from: Marleycat;753672You should fix your title.:)

But no it's not a community wide thing you just have to use them for a reason like your group. For example I was running a 6/6 elf F/M in a 2e game and my GM loved Blood of the Fold and Temple of Winds of the Sword of Truth books...guess who got the Burger King crown until I leveled to 7/8 after a total buy in for the story arc he planned?

Thank you, the auto correct on my phone is a railroading dick GM sometimes too.

It's not just cursed items.

Rust monsters. Mimics in the shape of treasure chests. One-way chutes to lower dungeon levels without a way to get back up easily. Ten-ton falling rock traps that could TPK if the Thief misses his trap roll.

There are a lot of dick moves for a referee to pull out right there in the rule book.  Metagamey monsters especially.

Used with seasoned players and sparingly, they're okay. Or in a situation where the players know death is inevitable, like ToEE. But if you just drop these little neutron bombs on players regularly, that's pretty crappy.

Another one: any situation where "you can't use ability X" just because. Like there's anti-divination field around a certain dungeon so you can't use magic to scout ahead. I think that's kind of shitty.

Here's another one that fits: the bag of devouring. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?

Quote from: Scott Anderson;753677It's not just cursed items.

Rust monsters. Mimics in the shape of treasure chests. One-way chutes to lower dungeon levels without a way to get back up easily. Ten-ton falling rock traps that could TPK if the Thief misses his trap roll.

There are a lot of dick moves for a referee to pull out right there in the rule book.  Metagamey monsters especially.

Used with seasoned players and sparingly, they're okay. Or in a situation where the players know death is inevitable, like ToEE. But if you just drop these little neutron bombs on players regularly, that's pretty crappy.

Another one: any situation where "you can't use ability X" just because. Like there's anti-divination field around a certain dungeon so you can't use magic to scout ahead. I think that's kind of shitty.

Here's another one that fits: the bag of devouring. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?

Thanks for the perspective. A friend GMed us through To using 4e. Most of us had never played the module before but we knew it's reputation. It lived up to it and can see how players that think their character should never die would hate it.

 Spoiler: one player picked up the nick name "pit trap", he hated the Temple.

As for Rust Monsters and such. I'm not as big on gonzo dungeons and if something like that shows up there are usually ecological signs in the description of the dungeon areas. Plus I always viewed some of those monster types as a chance to let other classes shine and the party to use tactics.

I can see how player experience can make a big difference here.

One time this GM was a dick with monsters so we should get rid of those.

This other time a GM was a dick and made me keep rolling dice until I failed, so we should get rid of dice.

This other... other... time a GM interpreted the rules in a dickish way so we should get rid of rules.

Then one time he brought snacks for everyone but me so I think we should get rid of snacks too.

Then one time he made me sit in the crappy chair to be a dick so we should also get rid of all furniture.

Quote from: Piestrio;753682One time this GM was a dick with monsters so we should get rid of those.

This other time a GM was a dick and made me keep rolling dice until I failed, so we should get rid of dice.

This other... other... time a GM interpreted the rules in a dickish way so we should get rid of rules.

Then one time he brought snacks for everyone but me so I think we should get rid of snacks too.

Then one time he made me sit in the crappy chair to be a dick so we should also get rid of all furniture.

One time at Band Camp......

This is what I think of when I read "disk GM's"

(http://www.pixelitis.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/wargames_wopr.jpg)

It's all to do with being fair; don't try to fuck over the PC's, give them opportunities to get themselves fucked over.

If you're including cursed items and trap monsters because they'd fit the setting, go nuts! Bad guy's a sorcerer, worried about all those pesky warrior types? Ace! Rust monsters! Cursed things that they'd like! Traps you can't hack-and-slash your way out of! Scrolls of explosive runes!

If you're including a rust monster because a few sessions ago Mark dodged a really cunning trap you made and got a suit of magical platemail, and fuck Mark and his stupid paladin and his stupid "I'm going to bring education to the poor kids in the city", he thinks he's so smart, maybe accompany the rust monsters (Because there are ten of them now) with a goblin hunting party, let's say their archers all have arrows of negation which explode as soon as a non-goblin touches them (Because fuck Jess and her stupid archer, too), and have them guard a cursed gidle of flip-out-and-kill-any-child-you see... you're being a dick.

If cursed items are being seeded into adventures just to harass the players then yes. That can rapidly get to be annoying.

But if the item was just rolled up on the random table. Then that is the great god RNG, who has an arrow of slaying with your name on it. Same for traps, monsters, etc.

Some players though either have had bad experiences and thus think ALL bad things should be removed and the DM supressed.
The rest simply cannot accept anything bad happening to their character. They have to be the bestest-mostes-supremest every single second otherwise the DM is being a dick and must be supressed at all costs.

As usual. Varies massively from group to group. But the anti-DM movement seems to get more vocal and stringent the further past 2000 you get.

I've always considered the premise of "Things specifically designed to fuck over player-characters" to be dick moves.

Cursed Magic Items are one example.  What sane enchanter deliberately uses time, ingredients, equipment and arcane power to create something like that?  Wouldn't any sensible culture make them illegal, and impose nasty punishments on any wizard caught doing so?  Wouldn't even the classic trope of the wizard commissioned to make the Cursed Jewelry To Fix The Wagon Of My Ex Who Ditched Me For That Trollop involve some serious retribution?  (And wouldn't insane wizards prove to be particularly unreliable enchanters?  Mad scientists tend to blow themselves up, and I don't figure that mad wizards are much different.)

My notion of "cursed" items comes in a couple flavors: items that have blocks (the GURPS Password spell, for one) preventing its powers from being used by outsiders, or -- more frequently -- items that have acquired curses because of the dark deeds of their owners, but which retain all their normal abilities.

Quote from: Ravenswing;753709What sane enchanter deliberately uses time, ingredients, equipment and arcane power to create something like that?  Wouldn't any sensible culture make them illegal, and impose nasty punishments on any wizard caught doing so?

I wish I lived in a world without computer viruses, too.

Cursed magic items, archways that change your sex, magic pools that drop your chr to 5 these are all holdovers from the start of the hobby when the game was just a game there was little investment in character and the gameworld was a backdrop to exploration. The dungeon was just a game tool to find ways round puzzles traps and monsters.
No surprise it was filled with critters that looked like treasure chests, or baby rabbits or creatures that could survive 300 years between meals.

Quickly D&D outgrew its roots and the roleplay element came to trump the game element. Players wanted character arcs and development and a realist setting that made sense. Where do these orcs sleep, shit, etc what does a hidden lurker eat when the dungeon is only populated by undead ghouls, how would a creature evolve to look like a chest, how long would that actually take compared to the length of their have actualy been chests et etc

As characters became more realised so did their worlds and the chuck everything in for fun mix it all up disappeared, with it the cursed items. Now lets gets things straight we aren't talking cursed items like Stormbringer or the One Ring, ie powerful items with their own agendas we are talking about cursed items that switch your gender or weapons that get -2 to hit etc.

In a realised world there are few reasons to make an archway or a weapon that switches someones gender or a dagger that always misses. Since these items are cursed and can't be removed except by a powerful spell or when the owner dies its less likely that they would be in a general treasure collection .

So they are a part of old school play to be sure but they are a part of old school play like dungeons stocked with traps and wandering monsters who seem unable to set them off, or dungeons with rooms of hungry trolls living a few hundred meters from a room of rat men playing poker.

The rule should always be why would anyone build this or make this or put this here? If the reasons are logical its not a dick move by the DM.

The Lich will use all his powers to kill the PCs and since he can prep his lair and has had a long time to do it should represent that. Should the DM review what the players have or what their tactics have been before they design the lich's lair No absolutely not. The Lich's defenses have to be constructed from its point of view in light of its knowledge.

Cursed magic items are just another type of trap, so if you feel using them at all is a dickish move then remove them along with any other traps. While you're at it, go ahead and take out any element that may cause harm to a PC save those that warn the player in writing before appearing in the game.

That way there can be no surprises, danger, or uncertainty as the special snowflakes drift from "challenge" to "challenge" kicking all the ass they are entitled to and feeling oh so good about themselves. We wouldn't want the unexpected to interfere with their goals or prevent them from achieving self actualization.

Cunts.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753730Cursed magic items are just another type of trap, so if you feel using them at all is a dickish move then remove them along with any other traps. While you're at it, go ahead and take out any element that may cause harm to a PC save those that warn the player in writing before appearing in the game.

That way there can be no surprises, danger, or uncertainty as the special snowflakes drift from "challenge" to "challenge" kicking all the ass they are entitled to and feeling oh so good about themselves. We wouldn't want the unexpected to interfere with their goals or prevent them from achieving self actualization.

Cunts.

Nah that a load of bollocks.

Do you build a trap that only works once the bad guys have broken into your house killed you and are taking all your stuff or do you spend that effort building traps to stop them breaking into your house in the first place?

You are thinking as a GM making a challenge for his PCs and not thinking as a monster/creature/NPC with a set knowledge base defending themselves from armed invaders.

Now if you have a trap that guards a common hallway in your dungeon that the denizens use all the time and if you step on any of the orange squares a squillion tonnes of molton lead pour on your head that is a dick move because its a trap that would be set off 3 or 4 times a day by standard usage and is impossible to reset....

Quote from: Ravenswing;753709 What sane enchanter deliberately uses time, ingredients, equipment and arcane power to create something like that?

Who says they're created on purpose? A cursed sword might have become so due to a simple miscalculation in it's creation, or gradually as the result of the many dark deeds it was used for over hundreds of years.

Quote from: jibbajibba;753721In a realised world there are few reasons to make an archway or a weapon that switches someones gender or a dagger that always misses. Since these items are cursed and can't be removed except by a powerful spell or when the owner dies its less likely that they would be in a general treasure collection .

Nah, that's rubbish. We've got people IRL who get born with the wrong gender; if fixing that was as easy as casting a spell, some people would want it, some people would be willing to pay for it, some people would just build a thing for the greater good (The greater good) because they had the skills. A dagger that always misses would be a fun thing to give to your friend the master dagger-fighter as a joke festival present.

Others would just build those things for shits and giggles. It could easily end up in a treasure hoard if someone finds it and chucks it in there, because it just looks like another dagger.

And who says an item is cursed, anyway? It could well have been created for a perfectly sensible and logical reason at the time, but absent of that, in a different situation, it'll look like a curse.

A weed, after all, is just a plant in the wrong place.

I am fine with cursed items. They add a bit of excitement and unknown to the game. As a GM my personal preference is to roll on treasure tables. I feel that is fair, but as long as the GM is placing them occassionally and doing so to make the game more fun and challenging, I think it is totally fine regardless of the method used.

Quote from: jibbajibba;753721Cursed magic items, archways that change your sex, magic pools that drop your chr to 5 these are all holdovers from the start of the hobby when the game was just a game there was little investment in character and the gameworld was a backdrop to exploration. The dungeon was just a game tool to find ways round puzzles traps and monsters.
No surprise it was filled with critters that looked like treasure chests, or baby rabbits or creatures that could survive 300 years between meals.

Quickly D&D outgrew its roots and the roleplay element came to trump the game element. Players wanted character arcs and development and a realist setting that made sense. Where do these orcs sleep, shit, etc what does a hidden lurker eat when the dungeon is only populated by undead ghouls, how would a creature evolve to look like a chest, how long would that actually take compared to the length of their have actualy been chests et etc

As characters became more realised so did their worlds and the chuck everything in for fun mix it all up disappeared, with it the cursed items. Now lets gets things straight we aren't talking cursed items like Stormbringer or the One Ring, ie powerful items with their own agendas we are talking about cursed items that switch your gender or weapons that get -2 to hit etc.

In a realised world there are few reasons to make an archway or a weapon that switches someones gender or a dagger that always misses. Since these items are cursed and can't be removed except by a powerful spell or when the owner dies its less likely that they would be in a general treasure collection .

So they are a part of old school play to be sure but they are a part of old school play like dungeons stocked with traps and wandering monsters who seem unable to set them off, or dungeons with rooms of hungry trolls living a few hundred meters from a room of rat men playing poker.

The rule should always be why would anyone build this or make this or put this here? If the reasons are logical its not a dick move by the DM.

The Lich will use all his powers to kill the PCs and since he can prep his lair and has had a long time to do it should represent that. Should the DM review what the players have or what their tactics have been before they design the lich's lair No absolutely not. The Lich's defenses have to be constructed from its point of view in light of its knowledge.

I don't know about this. I do not believe it has been a steady evolution toward RP and exploration. One of the true delights of 3E for me when it first came out was a return to some of these game elements. I feel I probably went too far in the RP direction leading up to it, and going back to these things was a pleasure for me as a player and a GM. Nothing wrong with that aspect of play in my opinion a long as it doesn't overwhelm the other elements.

Quote from: jibbajibba;753732Nah that a load of bollocks.

Do you build a trap that only works once the bad guys have broken into your house killed you and are taking all your stuff or do you spend that effort building traps to stop them breaking into your house in the first place?

You are thinking as a GM making a challenge for his PCs and not thinking as a monster/creature/NPC with a set knowledge base defending themselves from armed invaders.

Now if you have a trap that guards a common hallway in your dungeon that the denizens use all the time and if you step on any of the orange squares a squillion tonnes of molton lead pour on your head that is a dick move because its a trap that would be set off 3 or 4 times a day by standard usage and is impossible to reset....

Lets not forget that this a GAME. That cursed magic item could have a fantastic backstory about how it came to be that way.....

OR  

It could be as simple as the equivalent to drawing a card that says " lose a turn and go back 2 spaces"

Cursed items, tricky niche monsters, traps that confuse and confound, these are all just components to spice up the game. The same applies to beneficial off the wall things such as eating fruit that raises a stat or gaining the benefits of a bless spell for doing something that aids a friendly ghostly spirit.

Having said that, not ALL fantasy roleplaying has to be in the same vein as D&D. I don't make use of the same conventions when running GURPS fantasy that I do when running D&D.

D&D is its own brand of insanity. Nothing sums up the essence of D&D gameplay better than this old forgotten SNL sketch: (totally work safe despite the title)

http://vimeo.com/38130529


So remember, D&D is just a game in which many outlandish things take place.

......or you will have to fight the bear.:)

Quote from: Ladybird;753737Nah, that's rubbish. We've got people IRL who get born with the wrong gender; if fixing that was as easy as casting a spell, some people would want it, some people would be willing to pay for it, some people would just build a thing for the greater good (The greater good) because they had the skills. A dagger that always misses would be a fun thing to give to your friend the master dagger-fighter as a joke festival present.

Others would just build those things for shits and giggles. It could easily end up in a treasure hoard if someone finds it and chucks it in there, because it just looks like another dagger.

And who says an item is cursed, anyway? It could well have been created for a perfectly sensible and logical reason at the time, but absent of that, in a different situation, it'll look like a curse.

A weed, after all, is just a plant in the wrong place.

well to start off with spell that changed gender .. fine I can see a use for that enchanting that power onto a girdle or into a pool or not an archway ...no

You can't throw away a cursed dagger. I can actually see that someone might curse a dagger to slip to an opponent in a certain fight my issue is that this stuff shouldn't turn up in a random horde. A cursed item stays with the owner til a spell is cast to remove it or the person dies. under the circumstances where it might end up in the hands of an adventurer I can see they might die and it might be on their body or something but in the bandits treasure horde unlikely as they would have picked it up to use as it looks like a magical blade.
In fact that is one of my other gripes monsters that don't use their magic because the GM randomly rolled it after they had been. Oh look by chance the orc chief had a +5 defender hmm...why wasn't he making more use of that?

Anyway  the majority of cursed items are really just there for the players to have a laugh. It wasn't a serious game it was a bit of fun no one cared if your PC grew a third eye or started farting all the time it was just humour more like Munchkin than anything else.

And yes the game did move from "lighthearted fun" to serious roleplay and it did that because the bulk of fans wanted that to happen and then it did move to charop mastery because that was what the bulk of fans wanted. People might not like it but no point denying it.

The GM may or may not be a dick, but I'm pretty sure the lich is.  Making a trap in a hallway, making a trap in a sword, all the same thing.  One prevents them from getting in, one strikes back at them for you from beyond the grave.

I think people forget, whiny cunts stay on the farm or remain apprentice to the cobbler. PCs don't.

Quote from: jibbajibba;753744well to start off with spell that changed gender .. fine I can see a use for that enchanting that power onto a girdle or into a pool or not an archway ...no

As a first step in breaking new slaves. As a fun curiosity for parties. As a trap to fuck with people intruding in their dungeon. Shits and giggles. As a sex toy. To balance out genders so a particular species has enough viable breeding pairs.

That's six in a minute, you're welcome.

QuoteYou can't throw away a cursed dagger.

Yeah, that rule's a bit daft. On the other hand, if you're skilful enough to be able to create that for your buddy as a present, you're likely powerful enough to be able to counter it afterwards, once everybody's had a good laugh at the assassin's guildmistress faffing about.

QuoteI can actually see that someone might curse a dagger to slip to an opponent in a certain fight my issue is that this stuff shouldn't turn up in a random horde. A cursed item stays with the owner til a spell is cast to remove it or the person dies. under the circumstances where it might end up in the hands of an adventurer I can see they might die and it might be on their body or something but in the bandits treasure horde unlikely as they would have picked it up to use as it looks like a magical blade.

Unless the bandits are smart enough not to use it, or don't want to give up their other weapons.

QuoteAnd yes the game did move from "lighthearted fun" to serious roleplay and it did that because the bulk of fans wanted that to happen and then it did move to charop mastery because that was what the bulk of fans wanted. People might not like it but no point denying it.

Your axe, it's looking pretty well ground. There's plenty of space between "we're taking this seriously" and "we're obsessed with every tiny mechanic".

Ignoring rules or parts of a game because the DM is a dick seems a pretty silly thing to do because it's not like the DM will stop being a dick.  He or she will find another way to be a dick.  

Don't play with dicks.

In my early experience, cursed items were to keep the players cautious.  The didn't just automatically start using every magic item they found without at least doing some research or casting spells on it first.  Traps were used to enforce Darwin awards.  If you just zerg'd into a dungeon, you died.  Which makes total sense since defenders have been using traps since Neanderthal days.  I suppose you could reference my sig to see how I feel about traps and cursed weapons.

Also, as a matter of fact, in my superdungeon I just finished there is a cursed item and rust monsters (among other things).  The PCs end up stumbling upon two dead bodies, one of them that has shown signs of obviously being eaten.  They were the two remaining survivors from a much earlier battle with demons and fled in terror to a hidden room where the bodies are now.  Both were driven insane from their battle.  One of them was badly wounded, and after a couple days, the other one ate him.  Then died of starvation himself.  He has a magic item that has since been cursed.  Anyone who takes this item and uses it will be cursed to only desire long pork until it can be successfully removed.

For the rust monsters, they are pets of a bullywug tribe.  The bullywugs don't have any metal tools themselves, so partnering with rust monsters is a perfect fit to keep pesky adventurers (and rival humanoid species) out of their area.

I don't think I'm being a dick by including these two things in the adventure.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753749Ignoring rules or parts of a game because the DM is a dick seems a pretty silly thing to do because it's not like the DM will stop being a dick.  He or she will find another way to be a dick.  

Don't play with dicks.

In my early experience, cursed items were to keep the players cautious.  The didn't just automatically start using every magic item they found without at least doing some research or casting spells on it first.  Traps were used to enforce Darwin awards.  If you just zerg'd into a dungeon, you died.  Which makes total sense since defenders have been using traps since Neanderthal days.  I suppose you could reference my sig to see how I feel about traps and cursed weapons.

Also, as a matter of fact, in my superdungeon I just finished there is a cursed item and rust monsters (among other things).  The PCs end up stumbling upon two dead bodies, one of them that has shown signs of obviously being eaten.  They were the two remaining survivors from a much earlier battle with demons and fled in terror to a hidden room where the bodies are now.  Both were driven insane from their battle.  One of them was badly wounded, and after a couple days, the other one ate him.  Then died of starvation himself.  He has a magic item that has since been cursed.  Anyone who takes this item and uses it will be cursed to only desire long pork until it can be successfully removed.

For the rust monsters, they are pets of a bullywug tribe.  The bullywugs don't have any metal tools themselves, so partnering with rust monsters is a perfect fit to keep pesky adventurers (and rival humanoid species) out of their area.

I don't think I'm being a dick by including these two things in the adventure.

Indeed stuff that is thought out and logical is undickish.

Adding 12 rust monsters because the guy with the Plate +4 and +5 sword turned out to be too powerful for your dungeon is dickish.

etc....

Quote from: Ladybird;753748As a first step in breaking new slaves. As a fun curiosity for parties. As a trap to fuck with people intruding in their dungeon. Shits and giggles. As a sex toy. To balance out genders so a particular species has enough viable breeding pairs.

That's six in a minute, you're welcome.



Yeah, that rule's a bit daft. On the other hand, if you're skilful enough to be able to create that for your buddy as a present, you're likely powerful enough to be able to counter it afterwards, once everybody's had a good laugh at the assassin's guildmistress faffing about.



Unless the bandits are smart enough not to use it, or don't want to give up their other weapons.



Your axe, it's looking pretty well ground. There's plenty of space between "we're taking this seriously" and "we're obsessed with every tiny mechanic".

See I don't take it too seriously but I do take it logically so your six ideas are all crap.

And yes my axe is feeling well ground and its gone 10pm and I am in HK so tie to hit Wan Chai and get into some trouble. :D

(http://www.d20monkey.com/comics/2014-04-11-20140411.png)

I feel so lucky nobody posted this yet!

Honestly,  why wouldn't the lich be a dick to the players?  Why wouldn't any monster the party wants to murder and plunder?

It seems more metagame to insist that they wouldn't be aware that people are trying to kill them and take their stuff.

I'm fine with rust monsters if you give the players some clues that say watch out, there might be something very odd near here. Though from what I have seen with 5e Rogues it may well be an epic fight if she had a bone or obsidian weapon.

Quote from: Marleycat;753764I'm fine with rust monsters if you give the players some clues that say watch out, there might be something very odd near here. Though from what I have seen with 5e Rogues it may well be an epic fight if she had a bone or obsidian weapon.

Yes, there are clues, like random small piles of rust here and there, but only actively looking players will really notice (and really, all PCs should be actively looking ;) ).  One of the tunnels actually has an iron ore vein in it (where most of the piles are) that leads to a nursery with rust monster eggs.  Imagine what creative players could do with those ;)


*on a side note, the kind of players in my group do things like: paralyzing the basilisk from earlier in the adventure and covering it in burlap, and when they are staking out the keep they need to infiltrate, they end up flying the basilisk over the keep walls (bag untied) and when it lands dispelling the paralysis.

Quote from: CRKrueger;753745The GM may or may not be a dick, but I'm pretty sure the lich is.  .

Agreed. It is probably also true as well that being undead for centuries or even thousands of years leads many of them to not think in ways that appear rational to us. Boredom, insanity, etc will take their toll.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;753768Agreed. It is probably also true as well that being undead for centuries or even thousands of years leads many of them to not think in ways that appear rational to us. Boredom, insanity, etc will take their toll.

It would be like giving Kim Jong Il 1000 years to design his lair.

I've always liked the idea of introducing a Cursed Item that was once NOT cursed, but became that way because its wielder did something so tragically awful that some big supernatural entity took notice and... well, cursed it.

The idea would be that the item is renown in legend and myth, so the heroes must go on a quest to "fix it" or re-consecrate it. And so, just like that fabled MacGuffin of Middle Earth, the item must be carried by the party, which is a tedious or flat-out awful process. But the pay-off would be glorious. Theoretically.

Quote from: Necrozius;753774I've always liked the idea of introducing a Cursed Item that was once NOT cursed, but became that way because its wielder did something so tragically awful that some big supernatural entity took notice and... well, cursed it.

The idea would be that the item is renown in legend and myth, so the heroes must go on a quest to "fix it" or re-consecrate it. And so, just like that fabled MacGuffin of Middle Earth, the item must be carried by the party, which is a tedious or flat-out awful process. But the pay-off would be glorious. Theoretically.

I did that a few years back when I was running an AD&D game through T1-4.  One of the PCs was a paladin, and towards the end wanted to get a holy sword (naturally).  Well, turns out the general who they fought right before Zugtmoy (I changed some things around in that module to fit what the player's were doing) had Blackrazor.  The paladin had a vision that in order to get his holy sword, he would need to have an ancient white dragon breath on the unholy sword, then immediately smash it into bits with Whelm.  Then take the pieces to a high temple of Cuthbert where it would be reforged into a holy sword.

Let's just say having a paladin carrying an intelligent ego sword that wanted to constantly kill (but he couldn't ever use it or risk losing his paladinhood) made for an entertaining conflict ;)  Needless to say, they did travel to White Plume Mountain after defeating Zugtmoy, they got whelm, found the dragon lair, and ended up finishing the quest.  Then the PCs all retired and the paladin never did get to end up using his holy sword in actual game play :P  But strangely enough, everyone was OK with it.

Being a dick GM is being a dick GM, it can come out in a thousand ways; the best rule is to not be a dick, period.

Quote from: dragoner;753785Being a dick GM is being a dick GM, it can come out in a thousand ways; the best rule is to not be a dick, period.

That goes without saying.

The question the thread is posing is rather- does using cursed magic items in a campaign inherently make one a dick GM?

Quote from: Ravenswing;753709Cursed Magic Items are one example.  What sane enchanter deliberately uses time, ingredients, equipment and arcane power to create something like that?  Wouldn't any sensible culture make them illegal, and impose nasty punishments on any wizard caught doing so?  

For the evuls: No really. Created just to fuck with someone. What do you think demons and liches do for recreations?

Trap: To hinder adventurers. Especially those -X weapons and armour. Possibly giving guards or the leader an advantage deeper in. Place a few cursed items in chests near the entrance.

Spite: Placed in a personal chest. If someone got that far then the owner is likely dead and so why not try and screw with whomever offed you post mortem?

Botched enchanting: Either no one noticed it was a botch, or they noticed and stored it someplace for later repair work that never happened. Seen at least once in a book.

Former +X item that was literally cursed to hinder a foe. Or was exposed to negative or warping energies. Or exposed to the presence or blood of some excessively evil being like a demon, lots of demons or a god. Fairly common.

Created by gods: The gods of bad luck probably have sweat shops churning these things out. Seen this in books once or twice. Not the sweat shop part...

Revenge: A wizard who hates fighters for example creates one. A king has one created as a gift for a foe who will receive it unawares of its true nature. This one is pretty common.

Security or alien nature: The weapons works perfectly fine for the owner or the race originally created it. But it has a built in security to hinder anyone not the owner. Or its simply so foreign to the material world or terrestrial life that here its function is warped.

etc ad cursium...

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753790The question the thread is posing is rather- does using cursed magic items in a campaign inherently make one a dick GM?

No, it does not inherently make one a dick GM; unless of course, one is a dick GM to begin with.

It's amazing to me how much the "entitlement" attitude has seeped into the hobby... From my point of view, it isn't dickish if it makes sense in context with the setting.

One of my favorite episodes in Earthdawn was when my PC got himself stuck with a cursed item.
Throal (big dwarf city) has an NPC, a troll, who pushes a cart around town. Everyone warned us about him, don't talk to the troll. No one told us why.
So my character is a Windling, curious, gregarious... short attention span and a bit naive. He saw the troll out late one night, the troll waved... my PC waved back. He went over and talked to the troll.
The troll was very friendly, offered him a present.
'What would you like?'
The PC had a current obsession (as much as a Windling can have an obsession) with a particular sort of jungle bird. So the Windling asked if the troll had such a bird... just so happens he did. A stuffed one mounted on a block of wood.
JOY!
Turns out the troll was a sort of demigod/avatar of the god of vengeance... and the stuffed bird was a conduit for a particularly nasty demon-thing to come in and haunt people in their dreams. Not the owner, but anyone around him while he was sleeping... trying to drive them to suicide.
Lots of people died before this was figured out. Fall asleep in a city, bad things happen.
Oh, and if no one was around to haunt... the bird would raise up any nearby corpses as undead, just to be spiteful because I'd taken the precaution of going off on my own to sleep.
Once accepted the bird could not be gotten rid of or destroyed... it just showed up the next night, worse for wear.
The whole thing lead to several side quests and an epic battle once we tracked the demon-thing to its lair on another plane.

Most fun I've had with a cursed magic item, ever.

I think there's also an implicit assumption in old D&D that you're (mostly) tromping through ancient structures filled with forgotten monsters and loot and whatnot, not going through a just-built, custom-designed fortress.  Mostly.

From that perspective, why not have cursed items?  Who can say why or where they came from?  Maybe their magic 'turned' for some reason.  Maybe they're only cursed for people that aren't members of the long lost Kingdom of Noncurseditemness (of which there are no members ever any more).  Maybe a powerful spellcaster from centuries ago really hated fighters.  Maybe the sword is actually a ritual device.  Who knows?

Yeah, after you've dealt with the monster, after you've dealt with the traps preventing you from getting the treasure, after you've bypassed the locks securing the treasure, why not...

also have the treasure be a gotcha?  I mean, if you don't then why bother with any of it?  That's all players ever struggle for, to get a -1 cursed sword, or to have Bob the macho fighter get suddenly turned into Babette, or to have the Paladin lose his paladin status permanently because of a helm he accidentally touched.  If you aren't doing this, you're just coddling players with an overblown sense of entitlement.  Fuck players.  Useless pieces of shit.

All treasure should be handled solely with telekinesis before it can be gathered in a pile and Detect Magic cast on the mound.  Anything glowing needs to be handled like deadly hazardous materials until it is inspected by the NEST team (MUs with Identify spell and Bards) wearing whatever equivalent of a full body condom can be mustered.  Only once the item has been properly validated can it truly be considered treasure.  And that's why the DM should just go ahead and make it cursed anyway, because Fuck Players.

Anyone who doesn't play like this should be beaten in the face with a baseball bat until they die, dismembered, and the body parts raped by badgers.  Fucking useless posers.

Quote from: Gabriel2;753815Yeah, after you've dealt with the monster, after you've dealt with the traps preventing you from getting the treasure, after you've bypassed the locks securing the treasure, why not...

also have the treasure be a gotcha?  I mean, if you don't then why bother with any of it?  That's all players ever struggle for, to get a -1 cursed sword, or to have Bob the macho fighter get suddenly turned into Babette, or to have the Paladin lose his paladin status permanently because of a helm he accidentally touched.  If you aren't doing this, you're just coddling players with an overblown sense of entitlement.  Fuck players.  Useless pieces of shit.

All treasure should be handled solely with telekinesis before it can be gathered in a pile and Detect Magic cast on the mound.  Anything glowing needs to be handled like deadly hazardous materials until it is inspected by the NEST team (MUs with Identify spell and Bards) wearing whatever equivalent of a full body condom can be mustered.  Only once the item has been properly validated can it truly be considered treasure.  And that's why the DM should just go ahead and make it cursed anyway, because Fuck Players.

Anyone who doesn't play like this should be beaten in the face with a baseball bat until they die, dismembered, and the body parts raped by badgers.  Fucking useless posers.

Awesome. Or get real fun and make them use 40 identify spells on each item. It's so much fun trust me. As I said upthread if you have a reason or context go for it, if it's because "well you forgot your 10 ft pole" fuck off given this isn't BCMI anymore and nobody plays DnD as originally intended with 455 mook bastards most you couldn't be arsed to name beyond Bob VII because you died every 2 seconds anyway. Unless of course it's DCC or Warhammer and well gee they are right up front with the fact that you sir are FUCKED.:D

Quote from: Gabriel2;753815Yeah, after you've dealt with the monster, after you've dealt with the traps preventing you from getting the treasure, after you've bypassed the locks securing the treasure, why not...

If you're going to barge into an innocent monster's hovel and murder it and it's family just because it's got too many heads or a funny skin colour or something, you kinda deserve to get fucked over.

Ah, what would any internet discussion be without gross hyperbole?

Quote from: robiswrong;753811I think there's also an implicit assumption in old D&D that you're (mostly) tromping through ancient structures filled with forgotten monsters and loot and whatnot, not going through a just-built, custom-designed fortress.  Mostly.

From that perspective, why not have cursed items?  Who can say why or where they came from?  Maybe their magic 'turned' for some reason.  Maybe they're only cursed for people that aren't members of the long lost Kingdom of Noncurseditemness (of which there are no members ever any more).  Maybe a powerful spellcaster from centuries ago really hated fighters.  Maybe the sword is actually a ritual device.  Who knows?

Personally, I'm not satisfied with the answer of "it's ancient" as an explanation for putting in senseless stuff.

I like it when there is a sense to dungeons, and you can logically deduce reasons for things like the layout, resources, and so forth. Monsters have treasure that makes sense for them, and store it or use it according to their nature.

For example, if magic items can turn cursed over a long time, then there are consequences to that explanation. The older a hoard is (especially untouched), then the more likely that it will contain cursed items. Conversely, more recent and more used hoards will be safer.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753824Ah, what would any internet discussion be without gross hyperbole?

Boring.;)

At worst,a cursed item may in fact be the gm being an asshat.

It is also possible some players think all items should be available, provide bonuses, and make their build more effective.

However, I feel that in most cases, a cursed item should fit the setting, have a rational reason for existing, and not be insanely arbitrary.

Stormbringer is cursed, fits it's setting, and has a reason for existing. Might be too arbitrary for my personal taste.

But that sword is so freaking cool, I would probably end up having fin regardless.

A girdle of gender alteration would be priceless. As in, many would pay a fortune for that girdle.

Quote from: Bill;753836A girdle of gender alteration would be priceless. As in, many would pay a fortune for that girdle.

Very true that.

Also, as GM, I reserve the right to be a dick, esp in response to other's dick moves.

I can understand that but really I would just go the route of kicking them out if a little adult to adult conversation doesn't do the trick.

Quote from: Marleycat;753846I can understand that but really I would just go the route of kicking them out if a little adult to adult conversation doesn't do the trick.

I mean in game dickery. Other stuff, like racism, sexism, cussing out people, getting angry, etc.; yes, I usually just kick them out.

Quote from: dragoner;753847I mean in game dickery. Other stuff, like racism, sexism, cussing out people, getting angry, etc.; yes, I usually just kick them out.

I never done that because I have seen it done and it doesn't seem to work out as well as planned in my opinion.

Quote from: Marleycat;753850I never done that because I have seen it done and it doesn't seem to work out as well as planned in my opinion.

I have found that when I try to be nice, it can backfire too. Not saying that I will definitely be a dick, but that I just reserve the right.

It's a balancing act for sure. And of course you reserve the right you are the DM.:)

Quote from: Marleycat;753853It's a balancing act for sure. And of course you reserve the right you are the DM.:)

Yup. :)


re cursed items: It is funny, in that when I think of a cursed sword, Stormbringer or Mournblade immediately pop into my mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormbringer

I guess we all have different media influences. But what I have to laugh about, is that one of my characters got stuck with a -1 sword once, the DM thinking he was smart, but I used it for a while because it could still damage creatures having to be hit with a magic weapon.

Or just dont put on willy nilly every item you find.

Alot of cursed items originally had to actually be used to start the curse off. You had to put the helm on slip on the girdle, use the weapon in combat etc. The cursed swords for example perform as normal when used to practice or test. It is only when used in combat that they activate. And then become really hard to get rid of. The Backbiter spear spear too.

Quote from: Bill;753836A girdle of gender alteration would be priceless. As in, many would pay a fortune for that girdle.

That may or may not be true.

I see this as one of those things where we see it as amazing and valuable,  but we live in a world where magic isn't real.

But in D&D (or Pathfinder at least) a scroll of Polymorph Any Object costs 3000 gp.  Male to female or vice versa is easily a Duration Factor of 9: Permanent.

That's another thread,  but it's a peeve of mine for sure.

Quote from: Scott Anderson;753677Here's another one that fits: the bag of devouring. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?

Need to quickly assassinate somebody when they go to the restroom right in the middle of the King's Grand Ball? Bring the Bag of Devouring. Two walk in the water closet, only one comes out.

Need to make sure that an enemy with clerical buddies stays the fuck dead? Chuck his carcass in the Bag of Devouring and never worry about him again.

Need to get rid of a cursed magic item? Need to quickly dump stolen goods right before a police search? Need a place to shove the shit when camping in a dungeon room, or the dirt when digging your way out of a trap?

It's only "Cursed" to the unimaginative.

I do admit the Bag of Devouring is about the most useful cursed item there is. I have had them before and used them in many of the same ways you mention.

Ah yes. The bag of pooping. Nice one there.

Quote from: Ladybird;753710I wish I lived in a world without computer viruses, too.

Poor analogy.  Quite aside from that most computer viruses don't take months or years to develop, or require much in the way of financial outlay, they're intended to propagate very quickly, can affect hundreds of thousands of users within weeks, and can roll around cyberspace for years, continuing to infect computers.  That's quite a high payoff for a nasty-minded hacker.

A cursed magical item, by contrast, affects (usually) one and one person only.  Depending on the enchanting system, it can take many months to create.  They usually require the same expensive and/or hard-to-find components to create.  And then you've got to find some way to get it into the target's hands, without a chance that the trail will lead back to you.  Me, if I wanted revenge that badly, I'd just hire an assassin to put a crossbow bolt in the back of the mofo's head.

Quote from: Raven;753734Who says they're created on purpose? A cursed sword might have become so due to a simple miscalculation in it's creation, or gradually as the result of the many dark deeds it was used for over hundreds of years.

Tell you what ... why don't you go back and read my whole post, instead of stopping dead on the third sentence?  You'd find, oddly enough, that exact same sentiment expressed.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753730Cursed magic items are just another type of trap, so if you feel using them at all is a dickish move then remove them along with any other traps. While you're at it, go ahead and take out any element that may cause harm to a PC save those that warn the player in writing before appearing in the game.

That way there can be no surprises, danger, or uncertainty as the special snowflakes drift from "challenge" to "challenge" kicking all the ass they are entitled to and feeling oh so good about themselves. We wouldn't want the unexpected to interfere with their goals or prevent them from achieving self actualization.

Cunts.

Hrm.  You know, we might as well raise the point of Dick Posters as well ... the ones who conflate (say) "Cursed items are generally illogical and denote a dick GM" with "O Nos, take away anything that can discomfort a PC."  

Asshole.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753824Ah, what would any internet discussion be without gross hyperbole?

+1.

Quote from: Bill;753833It is also possible some players think all items should be available, provide bonuses, and make their build more effective.

That *IS* the next step in this argument.

I've witnessed it at a couple of different boards.

The "cursed object whiners" then change tack and start arguing that it's a dick move to include, as example, polearms or heavy armor in treasure hoards when nobody in the adventuring party can/does use polearms or heavy armor.

I've found that these are typically the people that also bitch about random character generation, class-based systems, level-based systems, experience points and/or Vancian magic (usually multiples).

Yet, oddly, a surprising number of them hang out on forums dedicated to that style of game.

Paizo's site is rife with them.  I fear for the eventual second edition of that game.

Quote from: Ravenswing;753965Hrm.  You know, we might as well raise the point of Dick Posters as well ... the ones who conflate (say) "Cursed items are generally illogical and denote a dick GM" with "O Nos, take away anything that can discomfort a PC."  

Asshole.

If you think cursed items = automatic dick GM then you are a fucking moron.

Quote from: dragoner;753857Yup. :)


re cursed items: It is funny, in that when I think of a cursed sword, Stormbringer or Mournblade immediately pop into my mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormbringer

I guess we all have different media influences. But what I have to laugh about, is that one of my characters got stuck with a -1 sword once, the DM thinking he was smart, but I used it for a while because it could still damage creatures having to be hit with a magic weapon.

Stormbringer IS the iconic cursed item for me.


And...That cursed sword of yours that can hit magic creatures...quite cool.

Quote from: shuddemell;753801It's amazing to me how much the "entitlement" attitude has seeped into the hobby... From my point of view, it isn't dickish if it makes sense in context with the setting.

I agree with this, but it is possible for a gm to create things in a setting that are dickish despite fitting in well.

Sort of like having a world infested with wraiths due to the poor judgement of a guild of necromancers. Then wraiths ninja murder pc's in their sleep because they are drawn to the pc's heroic life force.

Or to put it differently.

A cursed item is a cursed item. It is neither purposeful nor dickish in and of itself.

It is the application that is the problem by random and infrequent INDIVIDUAL DMs whims. Cursed items? Traps? etc? All irrelevant to the fact that it is the DM that is the problem. Just like there are individual absolute dick players.

The real problem starts when someone has a bad experience, or worse yet - just imagines there is a mere possibility for a bad experience - and wants to "protect" everyone - at gunpoint - from these evil elements.

This is like the occasional obsession some board game designers get with trying to stop some imaginary player from cheating in their game in any way. News flash. You cant! If they really want to. Someone WILL find a way to cheat no mater how hammerd down ironclad no way it could happen rules you wrote.

A bad DM is going to be a Bad DM. A bad player is going to be a Bad Player.

Quote from: kythri;753974The "cursed object whiners" then change tack and start arguing that it's a dick move to include, as example, polearms or heavy armor in treasure hoards when nobody in the adventuring party can/does use polearms or heavy armor.

.

I will admit that those types of arguments probably rub me the wrong way more than they probably should.  For some reasons, people who whine if the treasure in the adventure isn't tailored to them fill me with disdain ;)

I mean, I sort of get the whole "The game is supposed to be fun for the players too, and how can I have fun if my dual wielding scimitar specialized build PC only comes across magic maces or axes?"  Sort of.  But IMO, the game world exists outside of the PCs, and isn't catered to them.  I.e., that monster had a +1 mace long before the PCs ever showed up, and it's not changing into a scimitar just because none of the PCs want to use one.

Don't like it?  Find a way to sell it, or trade it or whatever.  It's like that certain breed of player wants the game to maximize their very specific character build, and they should be catered to.  Magic item christmas tree lists are another example.

Quote from: Bill;753979Stormbringer IS the iconic cursed item for me.

I agree with most everything you've said in this topic so far, but AD&D cursed items bear no resemblance to Stormbringer.

They are items that "to all tests appear to be" the beneficial version of the item.  So they even throw false readings on an Identify attempt?  Classy.  Several exist only to deliver their GOTCHA payload once and then are expended and useless (so forget using them for beneficial purposes, because once you know the real function, it's too late).  IIRC, there are a few which perform to the first few initial uses as the beneficial item and "to all tests appear to be" the benficial item, only for the curse to jump up with it's GOTCHA after the 6th use or so.

It's notable that just about every cursed item in fiction isn't a cursed item in D&D.  They'd almost always have to be artifacts.  

Admittedly, it's been a long time since I read the Elric books, but I definitely seem to recall that Elric knew Stormbringer was bad news before he ever took it up.  Stormbringer also wasn't a -1 Sword.  In D&D it will be at the very minimum a Life Stealer sword which isn't a cursed item at all.    Stormbringer was also a character more than an item.

Stormbringer is not an item you have to hide in a treasure horde and have it fake out anti-virus/firewall measures in order for a player to want it.  A GM doesn't have to pixelbitch to get players to get players to accidentally touch it and fall for its negative aspects.  Put Stormbringer into a treasure horde and I guarantee there will be at least one player in your group falling all over himself to take up the black sword.  He will embrace the "curse" in exchange for what it offers.

Stormbringer isn't a AD&D cursed item because it's not a tournament gotcha.  It's a character that offers trade offs.  It's a long term trap, not an immediate Fuck You.  It is a snare willingly and knowingly triggered.  It is a web which Elric continually entangles himself more and more with over time.

I don't feel it's a valid comparison to categorize Stormbringer and Gauntlets of Weakness as the same thing.

Cursed items, like pit traps and morale rolls for hirelings, are a foundational part of the game.  They don't intrinsically bother me.

I do think some of the harsher ones from the early days of the game are ill conceived.  If you must place a cursed scroll that, on a failed save, dissolves the character into goo that drains away, then at least place clues in game so the player can make a meaningful choice.

But here's my test as a player:  I don't want to be penalized solely for interacting with the game world.  That includes cursed items, but its not just about them.  It could be about magic pools or rumors or hired help.  If the pools always curse you, and the rumors always steer you wrong, and the hirelings always betray you, and the magic items are always cursed, you have a dick GM.  If its a 50/50 chance, i.e. a random walk every time you interact with the world, then you know what, you still have a dick GM (or, charitably, just a plain bad one).

Quote from: Omega;753988A bad DM is going to be a Bad DM. A bad player is going to be a Bad Player.

Yes, very.  And truly a bad DM can do lots worse than pick a cursed item out of the book.  Say maybe replacing all the orcs in the module with Mind Flayers...

Quote from: mcbobbo;754002Yes, very.  And truly a bad DM can do lots worse than pick a cursed item out of the book.  Say maybe replacing all the orcs in the module with Mind Flayers...

Unless the mind flayers actually won the D&D monster franchise wars.

Now all monsters are mind flayers. :p

Quote from: Saladman;753999But here's my test as a player:  I don't want to be penalized solely for interacting with the game world.

You realize this is metagaming, yeah?

IRL booby traps were credited for 11% of the deaths in Vietnam and 17% of the injuries.

Just last month Iraqi insurgents trapped a home, waited for slodiers to search it and blew it up.

Also real life tombs exist with spring loaded crossbows, poisonous powders, lakes of mercury, pits and other hazards that are still dangerous today.

All of the above is done without any magic.  Why wouldn't magic amplify the effectiveness of this sort of behavior?

Also victims of all of the above were doing little more than walking along, doing their jobs.

I can't go so far as to advocate a fantasy game mirror reality, but it probably should either reflect it or explain why it doesn't.

Another reason for there to be a cursed item or trap.

Forgotten trap meant for someone else that never got sprung. Decades later people were still coming across unexploded land mines from World War II and at least one ship was damaged or sunk by a sea mine long after. Every few years you used to hear of some hiker or hunter getting nailed by a bear trap.

As a player who did have to suffer a "dick dm" for quite some time, I tend to be pretty dubious about traps that literally seem to be generated solely to screw the player over and nothing else, though I think there's a pretty big difference between a randomly generated trap or cursed item and something place maliciously. From my own experience, our dm would go out of his way to hit us with the most seemingly unfair things, like having a Scarab of Death insta kill a character in our party who just picked it up to examine it.

I'm not opposed to dangerous elements like traps or cursed items in a game though, I just think a party that's being as careful as possible should be able to have at the very least a warning of the danger.

As for cursed items, I think they can be great fun for roleplaying or just adventuring, as long as it's not something that kills you as soon as you pick it up. I guess punishing player curiosity seems like a stupid idea to me.

Quote from: Saladman;753999Cursed items, like pit traps and morale rolls for hirelings, are a foundational part of the game.  They don't intrinsically bother me.

I do think some of the harsher ones from the early days of the game are ill conceived.  If you must place a cursed scroll that, on a failed save, dissolves the character into goo that drains away, then at least place clues in game so the player can make a meaningful choice.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754005You realize this is metagaming, yeah?

IRL booby traps were credited for 11% of the deaths in Vietnam and 17% of the injuries.
(...)
I can't go so far as to advocate a fantasy game mirror reality, but it probably should either reflect it or explain why it doesn't.

In my experience, the vast majority of people want some mix of world verisimilitude and fair challenge (i.e. PCs don't randomly die just from being in the wrong place at the wrong time). They just draw the line differently about how much of each they want.

Regarding verisimilitude, though, most cursed items are piss-poor booby traps. Booby traps in Vietnam and Iraq were meaningfully built and placed with a purpose. I don't think anyone is complaining about having traps specifically to guard treasure. This is fundamentally different from a girdle of masculinity/femininity or a cursed -1 sword that turns up in a treasure pile. These don't seem like reasonable precautions taken by orcs to protect their treasure - they seem like "gotcha's" from the GM to annoy players.

Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

Quote from: jhkim;754011Regarding verisimilitude, though, most cursed items are piss-poor booby traps. Booby traps in Vietnam and Iraq were meaningfully built and placed with a purpose. I don't think anyone is complaining about having traps specifically to guard treasure. This is fundamentally different from a girdle of masculinity/femininity or a cursed -1 sword that turns up in a treasure pile. These don't seem like reasonable precautions taken by orcs to protect their treasure - they seem like "gotcha's" from the GM to annoy players.

Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

Have you not read half of the posts in this thread?  Several people gave several reasons why a cursed item may come into creation, and not all of them were intentionally made.  Most of the reasons were for other things.

So we've established you've got many reasons why a cursed item can exist.  It's not a far cry to assume that cursed item may be located anywhere, even in a monster's horde.  Maybe the monster knows about it?  Maybe they don't?

Point is, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why and how the PCs may encounter a cursed item that have nothing to do with the DM being a dick.

Quote from: Gabriel2;753990I agree with most everything you've said in this topic so far, but AD&D cursed items bear no resemblance to Stormbringer.

They are items that "to all tests appear to be" the beneficial version of the item.  So they even throw false readings on an Identify attempt?  Classy.  Several exist only to deliver their GOTCHA payload once and then are expended and useless (so forget using them for beneficial purposes, because once you know the real function, it's too late).  IIRC, there are a few which perform to the first few initial uses as the beneficial item and "to all tests appear to be" the benficial item, only for the curse to jump up with it's GOTCHA after the 6th use or so.

It's notable that just about every cursed item in fiction isn't a cursed item in D&D.  They'd almost always have to be artifacts.  

Admittedly, it's been a long time since I read the Elric books, but I definitely seem to recall that Elric knew Stormbringer was bad news before he ever took it up.  Stormbringer also wasn't a -1 Sword.  In D&D it will be at the very minimum a Life Stealer sword which isn't a cursed item at all.    Stormbringer was also a character more than an item.

Stormbringer is not an item you have to hide in a treasure horde and have it fake out anti-virus/firewall measures in order for a player to want it.  A GM doesn't have to pixelbitch to get players to get players to accidentally touch it and fall for its negative aspects.  Put Stormbringer into a treasure horde and I guarantee there will be at least one player in your group falling all over himself to take up the black sword.  He will embrace the "curse" in exchange for what it offers.

Stormbringer isn't a AD&D cursed item because it's not a tournament gotcha.  It's a character that offers trade offs.  It's a long term trap, not an immediate Fuck You.  It is a snare willingly and knowingly triggered.  It is a web which Elric continually entangles himself more and more with over time.

I don't feel it's a valid comparison to categorize Stormbringer and Gauntlets of Weakness as the same thing.

great post.

Warehouse 13 does a sort of cool "cursed item" creation theme with their artifacts; much better than some mechanical process of some games like somebody would be working at the magic item factory. It is harder, but it is more cool if each item is special.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753989I will admit that those types of arguments probably rub me the wrong way more than they probably should.  For some reasons, people who whine if the treasure in the adventure isn't tailored to them fill me with disdain ;)

I mean, I sort of get the whole "The game is supposed to be fun for the players too, and how can I have fun if my dual wielding scimitar specialized build PC only comes across magic maces or axes?"  Sort of.  But IMO, the game world exists outside of the PCs, and isn't catered to them.  I.e., that monster had a +1 mace long before the PCs ever showed up, and it's not changing into a scimitar just because none of the PCs want to use one.

Don't like it?  Find a way to sell it, or trade it or whatever.  It's like that certain breed of player wants the game to maximize their very specific character build, and they should be catered to.  Magic item christmas tree lists are another example.

That  attitude of the treasure needs to suit the PCs are just the other side of the coin to the DM puts in creatures or items to deliberately thwart the PCs. Its the same thing.

Like I said and you noted in your example. Put yourself in the role of the monster. Where and how do you place traps, what monsters are here, what is their ecology. If you do all of that and the setting is consistent then your are good to go. I actually hate the "give players clues that the xxx will kill them" because if I was a genius level lich or whatever setting up a trap I sure as shit wouldn't leave any clues about it lying round.

Quote from: jhkim;754011I don't think anyone is complaining about having traps specifically to guard treasure. This is fundamentally different from a girdle of masculinity/femininity or a cursed -1 sword that turns up in a treasure pile. These don't seem like reasonable precautions taken by orcs to protect their treasure - they seem like "gotcha's" from the GM to annoy players.

Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

In one case the reason we had for why the Girdle existed was that it was originally conceived as a flawless disguise by an assassin who had several made so they could change back and fourth as needed. In another it was a practical joke.

Why is there a -1 sword in the orcs treasure? Because it belonged to a former adventurer who died while using it. A parting "gift" from a jilted lover who enchanted his personal sword. Or this may be the current resting place of a sword that has done in a string of adventurers. Who originally made it and why? What if it isnt really cursed? It is only wieldable safely by its original owner or someone from that bloodline.

The WHY can become an adventure in itself. Or at least an interesting tale to discover.

Though my personal favorite was a +1 sword that one player was just dead convinced was cursed because she invariably had a bad roll while using it and never could get rid of. The sword liked her and was following her like a puppy.

We had a player who had a Crossbow of Accuracy that he literally never hit anything with. Every time he'd use it he'd botch the roll. The DM finally decided that he was such a bad shot that the crossbow had become a Crossbow of Inaccuracy.

What was great was some time later he found ANOTHER Crossbow of Accuracy in a random treasure pile.

Quote from: jhkim;754011Regarding verisimilitude, though, most cursed items are piss-poor booby traps. Booby traps in Vietnam and Iraq were meaningfully built and placed with a purpose. I don't think anyone is complaining about having traps specifically to guard treasure. This is fundamentally different from a girdle of masculinity/femininity or a cursed -1 sword that turns up in a treasure pile. These don't seem like reasonable precautions taken by orcs to protect their treasure - they seem like "gotcha's" from the GM to annoy players.

Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

I don't think all are meant as traps. Many probably just ended up int he horde somehow, and were created for other reasons that don't have anything to do with dungeons. Many cursed items strike me as artifacts of revenge or even espionage.

Personally, as long as you are not tripping over cursed items left and right, it doesn't disrupt my suspension of disbelief. If it is something that glares out at me immediately during play, then sure it will be problematic. But if it is something that only has issues when you examine it closely and at length afterwards, then I wont notice or care. I find the existence of such items in a horde fairly believable though.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;754029Personally, as long as you are not tripping over cursed items left and right, it doesn't disrupt my suspension of disbelief. If it is something that glares out at me immediately during play, then sure it will be problematic. But if it is something that only has issues when you examine it closely and at length afterwards, then I wont notice or care. I find the existence of such items in a horde fairly believable though.

Exactly. As a player I've run into all of maybee a dozen cursed items. And probably half of those I think we avoided by being careful. The others we just took in stride and dealt with. The really mean ones we usually had some minor forewarning something was up.

And for that matter. Why isnt anyone bitching about poison potion bottled hidden in treasures? We lost more characters to those damn things than the cursed items!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754016Have you not read half of the posts in this thread?  Several people gave several reasons why a cursed item may come into creation, and not all of them were intentionally made.  Most of the reasons were for other things.

So we've established you've got many reasons why a cursed item can exist.  It's not a far cry to assume that cursed item may be located anywhere, even in a monster's horde.  Maybe the monster knows about it?  Maybe they don't?

Point is, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why and how the PCs may encounter a cursed item that have nothing to do with the DM being a dick.

And I'm not arguing that 100% of all cursed item appearances mean that the GM is a certified dick. The OP alleges that something like that was "implied" in an unspecified article, but no one has actually argued that point.

So yes, I agree that there exists at least one hypothetical case where the PCs encounter a cursed item where the reason is not the DM being a dick.

That said, I also stand by my statement that in my experience, cursed items generally come across as metagame "gotchas" for the players, rather than reasonable parts of the game world. Of course, there are a lot of common elements of dungeons that seem meta-game motivated - as if they are designed for adventurers to go through, rather than being natural parts of the world that adventurers happen upon. For example, often a magic weapon is lying in the treasure hoard of a group of orcs as a reward for PCs, when logically if they had that weapons, the orcs would use it to defend themselves.

With any meta-game GM move, I can afterwards come up with an in-game justification if pressed. However, the meta-game explanation fits much better to the pattern of use than the in-game world explanation.

QuoteTell you what ... why don't you go back and read my whole post, instead of stopping dead on the third sentence?  You'd find, oddly enough, that exact same sentiment expressed.

Tell you what... why don't you drop the bratty attitude? It's not impressing anyone.

Once again we have discovered that rules can't fix asshat gm.

The cursed items are only a problem if the gm makes them a problem.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;754003Unless the mind flayers actually won the D&D monster franchise wars.

Now all monsters are mind flayers. :p

I salute you. Have a joy joy day.

Quote from: jhkim;75401Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

Okay,  that's a good point.  It really ought to take the PC out of active status to be worthwhile.   Kill or maim or completely disable.  E.g. a Sword of Pacifism.

But is that more or less dickish?   :)

Cursed items are fine by me. They can give you a great opportunity to roleplay.

Nightmare from Soul Calibur 2 is pretty much the perfect example. Cursed sword that possesses the wielder and forces him to slaughter to feed it while he desperately tries to fight its influence.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754223Okay,  that's a good point.  It really ought to take the PC out of active status to be worthwhile.   Kill or maim or completely disable.  E.g. a Sword of Pacifism.

But is that more or less dickish?   :)

Make it a sword that damages the wielder equally for any damage they inflict. And then give it a few +'s, like +infinity or something. So you can carve up anyone you want, you can carve 'em real good, as long as you're willing to pay the price.

Quote from: Raven;754062Tell you what... why don't you drop the bratty attitude? It's not impressing anyone.

Y'know, most people, upon complaining that a poster didn't express a sentiment that he did two sentences after you stopped reading, might respond with an "Oops, sorry I missed that."  Or else not responded at all; okay, sure, whatever.

Of course, getting defensive when you're caught redhanded is perfectly standard human behavior, 'tis true.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753975If you think cursed items = automatic dick GM then you are a fucking moron.

And boy, you're another one hellbent on responding to what you want people to have said, rather than what they actually did.  Pretty frigging ironic considering your .sig.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754005Also real life tombs exist with spring loaded crossbows, poisonous powders, lakes of mercury, pits and other hazards that are still dangerous today.

No, they really don't.

A lake of mercury would require the refinement of every gram of it in the earth's crust.  Spring loaded crossbows couldn't keep the tension.  And so on.  The fact of the matter is that the notion of tombs laden with traps is the invention of pulp fiction and Gothic horror, and kept alive by Hollywood.  One pithy quote from the University of Chicago's curator of Egyptian antiquities was that if the Egyptian tombs were really trapped, wouldn't the vainglorious pharoahs have boasted that they were?  No actual trap's been found in any ancient tomb.

Quote from: Ravenswing;754285Y'know, most people

Most people can manage to point something like that out in a mature and reasonable manner. That's how you go about getting an apology, not by being a condescending little twat.

'tis true.

Couple of thoughts:

I agree with others that have pointed out that the -1 cursed sword is just a dick gotcha move by the GM. But I also think the ubiquitous +1 sword is pretty lame too.

I could be wrong but I think some players started to think of their characters as walking Swiss army knives. +1 sword, +2 hat of wisdom rolls, +4 socks of hot coal walking, whatever. I think an attitude arose of "how dare one of my gizmos not work how I want?"

But I think as a GM you should be able to place legitimate story related items in a game that reminds the players that every rise to power has consequences.  That is what most cursed items in pop culture has shown:

Pirates of the Caribbean: that cursed treasure turns you into an undead life hating monster when you reach for it.

Raiders of the Lost Arc: turns out that ultimate weapon would curse you to death if you a Nazi ass hat.

LoTR: the ring....

Also, although the ancient Egyptian and Mayan did not have the elaborate traps of pop culture,  they did inscribe the walls of their tombs with spells that they believed in their superstition would protect all those treasures they were buried with.

Maybe with the prevalence of cursed items in pop culture and history, the writers of material for Next will start to include some of the cursed items from D&D's past. I know some of the OUR materials still use these ideas.

As I said upthread I am fine with cursed items under 3 nonexclusive conditions.

1. It must have a logical reason in setting
2. Player buy in (because they know if they play along it's going to be worth it in the end)
3. Something like Stormbringer that drives the story or actions of the players like number 2.

This of course is only for Dnd not an Urban Fantasy/Horror game like White Wolf were it's expected baseline.

In otherwords fuck Gygax and his bullshit gender/species change items and even worse 12 year old guy joke items. It wasn't funny then and less so now.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;754320Couple of thoughts:

I agree with others that have pointed out that the -1 cursed sword is just a dick gotcha move by the GM. But I also think the ubiquitous +1 sword is pretty lame too.

I could be wrong but I think some players started to think of their characters as walking Swiss army knives. +1 sword, +2 hat of wisdom rolls, +4 socks of hot coal walking, whatever. I think an attitude arose of "how dare one of my gizmos not work how I want?"

But I think as a GM you should be able to place legitimate story related items in a game that reminds the players that every rise to power has consequences.  That is what most cursed items in pop culture has shown:

Pirates of the Caribbean: that cursed treasure turns you into an undead life hating monster when you reach for it.

Raiders of the Lost Arc: turns out that ultimate weapon would curse you to death if you a Nazi ass hat.

LoTR: the ring....

Also, although the ancient Egyptian and Mayan did not have the elaborate traps of pop culture,  they did inscribe the walls of their tombs with spells that they believed in their superstition would protect all those treasures they were buried with.

Maybe with the prevalence of cursed items in pop culture and history, the writers of material for Next will start to include some of the cursed items from D&D's past. I know some of the OUR materials still use these ideas.

Yup totally.

The most effective cursed item I ever gave to a PC was a +5 intelligent sword. The sword had a huge ego and was sworn to slay all magic users. Now that sword got the PC into so much trouble I mean so much when it was taken from him He was so happy but when it found its way back into his hands ... he was its perfect tool easy to manipulate and hungry for power.
awesome

Quote from: mcbobbo;754223Okay,  that's a good point.  It really ought to take the PC out of active status to be worthwhile.   Kill or maim or completely disable.  E.g. a Sword of Pacifism.

But is that more or less dickish?   :)

but a sword of pacifism just means the character lives a long and healthy life not exactly a sweet revenge...

if I were a lich I would be much more likely to prepare a magic sword that was a periapt where my soul could flee when it seemed all was lost or through a hung contingency.
Being an egotistical being seeking eternal life of course the vessel of my immortality would have to be a powerful blade so more likely a +3/+6 versus good creatures with some sort of corruption mechanic for every life lost in this was such that when the swords bearer reached that corruption threshold my immortal soul would leave the blade and take possession of the bearers body.
That is the sort of 'cursed' item you find in my games.

Quote from: jibbajibba;754022That  attitude of the treasure needs to suit the PCs are just the other side of the coin to the DM puts in creatures or items to deliberately thwart the PCs. Its the same thing.

Like I said and you noted in your example. Put yourself in the role of the monster. Where and how do you place traps, what monsters are here, what is their ecology. If you do all of that and the setting is consistent then your are good to go. I actually hate the "give players clues that the xxx will kill them" because if I was a genius level lich or whatever setting up a trap I sure as shit wouldn't leave any clues about it lying round.

I agree with this, completely. You expanded on what Sacrosanct found annoying and tied it into why others found annoying on the flip side. I believe context matters, and to assume cursed items are by nature contextless is weird to me.

A tool merely facilitates the intent of the user, nothing more. There just happen to be more situation appropriate uses for certain tools. Focus on the logic of the situation and the options for right tools becomes apparent.

As for the -1 sword, about pettiness at great expense, I am reminded of the Black Queen from "Barbarella." She fed her prisoners in the labyrinth only orchids, which they would fight over. As to why she replied that orchids are beautiful and rare, but hold little nutrition. "I spare no expense to torture my enemies!"

To the Greater Evil! :cool:

Quote from: Ravenswing;754285And boy, you're another one hellbent on responding to what you want people to have said, rather than what they actually did.  Pretty frigging ironic considering your .sig.

Do you actually not remember what you post?

Quote from: Ravenswing;753965Hrm.  You know, we might as well raise the point of Dick Posters as well ... the ones who conflate (say) "Cursed items are generally illogical and denote a dick GM" with "O Nos, take away anything that can discomfort a PC."  

Asshole.

Cutting through the authentic frontier gibberish, your statement here seems to clearly indicate that you feel cursed items are illogical and denote a dick GM.

Before proceeding any further would you say that you meant that?

Quote from: jhkim;754059That said, I also stand by my statement that in my experience, cursed items generally come across as metagame "gotchas" for the players, rather than reasonable parts of the game world. Of course, there are a lot of common elements of dungeons that seem meta-game motivated - as if they are designed for adventurers to go through, rather than being natural parts of the world that adventurers happen upon. For example, often a magic weapon is lying in the treasure hoard of a group of orcs as a reward for PCs, when logically if they had that weapons, the orcs would use it to defend themselves.
.

I don't think they have to be there for strictly one reason (whether it be to make the game more interesting and challenging or because it flows naturally from the setting itself). When I play, I am usually balancing a number of different things. On the one hand I absolutely want a consistent and believable world that the characters inhabit. On the other I want the game to be interesting and fun. My decision to introduce a cursed item doesn't have to be rooted in one of them. It can be a product of both, or other considerations. Or I could introduce because I think it presents an interesting challenge, but I also make a point of giving it a logical in game reason for being there.

I do agree it is good idea to consider things like, well if this powerful sword is in the horde, why are the orcs not wielding it (in the case of a beneficial magic weapon). Same holds true for cursed weapons because you usually can't just put them down and stop using them. Sometimes I decide the orcs are using the item, other times I decide they didn't even know it had special properties. It depends.

I don't know I would say they are meant to be "gotchas". Cursed items are certainly there to liven the game up and make it less predictable. But a gotcha item suggests the GM is putting it there soley to be mean, whereas I feel you put them there the same reason you might put traps, special monsters, and secret doors into an area: it is about creating a textured and exciting place to explore.

As I've never been a fan of weapons and armor that magically fit the race who finds them, I could see a good way of doing a cursed item would be that the race who made it originally crafted it so that it affects certain races negatively. Instead of having Drow weapons become inert in the sunlight you could say they act as cursed weapons to the wielder, or maybe Dwarves are super paranoid about their crafting secrets getting out and make their weapons useless in the hands of non dwarves.

I guess as long as the DM isn't actively trying to just screw the players then cursed items can make perfect sense in a world.

Quote from: Ravenswing;754288No, they really don't.

A lake of mercury would require the refinement of every gram of it in the earth's crust.  Spring loaded crossbows couldn't keep the tension.  And so on.  The fact of the matter is that the notion of tombs laden with traps is the invention of pulp fiction and Gothic horror, and kept alive by Hollywood.  One pithy quote from the University of Chicago's curator of Egyptian antiquities was that if the Egyptian tombs were really trapped, wouldn't the vainglorious pharoahs have boasted that they were?  No actual trap's been found in any ancient tomb.

So, like, Google and stuff...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tombraider/8-tomb-raider-style-traps-that-totally-exist-in-real-life

QuoteThe Chinese have still not fully explored Emperor Qin Shi Huang's tomb, and a big part of that is they think the numerous pressure-plate crossbow traps — carefully coated with a preservative called chromate — probably still work, 2,000 years later.

QuoteAncient Egyptian engineers would cover the tomb floors with hematite powder, a sharp metallic dust designed to cause a slow and painful death to those who inhaled enough of it.
And that stuff has quite the shelf life: When Dr. Zahi Hawass, the Egyptian real-life Indiana Jones, entered the Bahariya Oasis tomb in 2001, his team found the sarcophagus booby trapped with 8 inches of the stuff, forcing them to abandon their expedition until they could come back with hazmat suits and respirators.

QuoteChinese Emperor Qin Shi Huang, famous above all else for the Terra cotta army he was buried with, also commissioned a series of massive rivers and lakes from mercury. These were not only accurate recreations of the Yangtze and Yellow rivers, they were also... totebags poison.

But maybe this is wrong and you personally are a better source than some article on the internet.

But then again, here's another source - http://www.china.org.cn/english/culture/229549.htm

QuoteAncient Chinese tended to bury treasures with them. Not surprisingly, tomb robbery was once rampant throughout the country. To prevent outside invasions, Emperor Qin Shihuang ordered a full range of precautions. It is said that besides poisonous mercury, booby traps with automatically ejected arrows were installed in the tomb chamber to deter would-be robbers. Anyone who dared to break in would certainly die a violent death.

However, all those alleged lethal weapons have been buried under earth for thousands of years. Would they still function adequately now? Most people believe that the crossbows would still shoot arrows if they are triggered. Guo also agreed so after he carefully studied ancient smelting technology recorded in historical books.

Neat what non-magic using people can do, isn't it?  Imagine what they'd be capable of with as many spells as gold can buy...

Quote from: Marleycat;754322As I said upthread I am fine with cursed items under 3 nonexclusive conditions.

1. It must have a logical reason in setting

1A. Some of those who can craft magic items know that adventurers exist and hate what they do, what they stand for, and hate their perfect flowing hair.

Or something like that...

Putting the D&D world in context for a minute, it seems that 'adventurer harassment' would be a thing for villains to do.  I mean really, either they or someone they work with has surely witnessed a raid by a party of do-gooders, found an empty treasure vault, and been left with a burning rage.

Or hell, what about screwing with each other?  (I have always wondered why the orcs didn't raid the goblin lair before the PCs got there.)  But maybe dickish cursed items are created to dissuade competitors from coveting their stuff?

Quote from: mcbobbo;754387Putting the D&D world in context for a minute, it seems that 'adventurer harassment' would be a thing for villains to do.

Or even irate villagers... how many farmers' daughters left pregnant in the wake of those noble questing agents of fortune? Farmer convinces local druid to put a curse on a sword... hides it near some local ruins.

Quote from: Simlasa;754406Or even irate villagers... how many farmers' daughters left pregnant in the wake of those noble questing agents of fortune? Farmer convinces local druid to put a curse on a sword... hides it near some local ruins.

PCs rolling merchants and sages for their pocket change.
You can bet some of them are going to seek revenge in subtle ways since brute force tends to fail against adventurers half the time.

Hell in real life game programmers have sat down and coded into their games traps for cheaters. Some pick-your-path and solo adventures have false entries in them to trap cheaters.

One of the posts above points out real life tombs trapped with "Kill you horribly AFTER you leave with my stuff" traps. Not kill you before you take my stuff... Kill you After.

So why wouldnt a fantasy type do the same?

If you are trying to figure out the rationale behind a revenge item or scheme, i think you also want to keep in mind that people don't always act rationally or in the most efficient way. A cursed item intended for revenge, could in fact be very poorly conceived by the designer, a massive waste lf resources, yet also totally believable because people do waste money and effort on bad ideas.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;754414If you are trying to figure out the rationale behind a revenge item or scheme, i think you also want to keep in mind that people don't always act rationally or in the most efficient way. A cursed item intended for revenge, could in fact be very poorly conceived by the designer, a massive waste lf resources, yet also totally believable because people do waste money and effort on bad ideas.

Oh so totally true.

Oh heres another great reason for a cursed item.

Artistic statement. Its supposed to be a +1 axe. But it is so elaborate and unweildy that its acting like a -1 item. AND the artist enchanted it to ALWAYS be used so everyone would see their grand masterwork.

Or.

Someone was making a +X item and botched it and didnt tell the person its for because they didnt want to lose their head.

A -1 or even -2 penalty can be barely notable in action if the interference is subtle rather than blatant.

Quote from: Omega;754419Someone was making a +X item and botched it and didnt tell the person its for because they didnt want to lose their head.

A big bin of botched magic items after finals at the local college of magic, left out back for disposal... stolen away under moonlight by nefarious types and peddled to unwary travelers.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754386<...snip....>
Neat what non-magic using people can do, isn't it?  Imagine what they'd be capable of with as many spells as gold can buy...

all well and good and people like to speculate and the fabled tomb of the dragon emperor and all that is great stuff but ... you canna change the laws of physics

Mercury reacts with most halogens to form salts and it reacts with aluminium and aluminium compounds. All of which means a pool of mercury isn't going to stay a pool for 2000 years. Likewise arrow traps and  complex mechanics aren't going to last long.
If there are traps about in tombs then they will rely on simple physics like weight on tipping points and the like and even these will be prey to the vagaries of minor earth tremors and the like.

Quote from: Simlasa;754406Or even irate villagers... how many farmers' daughters left pregnant in the wake of those noble questing agents of fortune? Farmer convinces local druid to put a curse on a sword... hides it near some local ruins.

really ? I mean really ....

If a bunch of farmers revenge fantasy is to pay a load of money to a bloke who will curse an item that they can hide so that a group of "adventurers" might happen by and find it and be mildly inconvenienced by it for a short period of time then they certainly lack imagination.
Especially when the same bag of gold could be used to hire a man to take care of said adventurers.

First off I loathe the concept of a world where "adventurer" is actually a job description. But mostly this is simply ridiculous.

As I stated cursed items of the ilk of Stormbringer I like an item with a dark purpose that carries a weighty Doom. All good.
I can see that a specific item might be created for a specific task a blade that always misses created as part of a matched set of blades for a duel or something but D&D cursed weapons aren't like that they provide a minor disadvantage..
Trapped scrolls with explosive Runes and bottles of poison are well and good but these things don't end up in treasure hordes they are specific and need to be placed.
As for the daft humour for 12 year olds Marley Cat is spot on there.

So I guess so far I remain unconvinced.

Thinking back, I guess we just assumed everything was some terrible cursed item until we found out otherwise, thus why spells like divination and such. Unless you killed some boss and took their weapon then you knew it had some positive power usually.

But like pornography, the daft humor of 12 year olds is known when you see it.

Similar complaints can be leveraged against examples in just about every facet comprising an RPG adventure, as 12 year olds have both the time and inclination to be so prolific. I'm sure there's cringe worthy version of castles, taverns, NPCs, monsters, metaplot, etc. out there. As arguments go it is pretty shallow — ooh, someone might fashion a pile of shit out of this tool, if only the tool could be stopped...

Quote from: Opaopajr;754534But like pornography, the daft humor of 12 year olds is known when you see it.

Similar complaints can be leveraged against examples in just about every facet comprising an RPG adventure, as 12 year olds have both the time and inclination to be so prolific. I'm sure there's cringe worthy version of castles, taverns, NPCs, monsters, metaplot, etc. out there. As arguments go it is pretty shallow — ooh, someone might fashion a pile of shit out of this tool, if only the tool could be stopped...

So curse someone with a blade then never hits its target.
Curse them with a weapon that deals to its wielder what it deals to its opponent. Curse them with a suit of armour that when the last buckle is tied boils the body of the incumbent and burns it away to dust. Curse them with a the kiss of a gypsy or the tender embrace of a shade of a love long lost. But don't curse them with a blade then gets -1 to hit or a girdle that changes their sex.

Quote from: jibbajibba;754537So curse someone with a blade then never hits its target.
Curse them with a weapon that deals to its wielder what it deals to its opponent. Curse them with a suit of armour that when the last buckle is tied boils the body of the incumbent and burns it away to dust. Curse them with a the kiss of a gypsy or the tender embrace of a shade of a love long lost. But don't curse them with a blade then gets -1 to hit or a girdle that changes their sex.

Someone gets it thank God!

As I said in my first post in this thread make it make sense in setting and if it's really nasty get player buy in. Remember I had a cursed item that literally changed me from a F/M to a straight fighter with none of the perks in 2e for 2 LEVELS!7 th

Quote from: jibbajibba;754532really ? I mean really ....

If a bunch of farmers revenge fantasy is to pay a load of money to a bloke who will curse an item that they can hide so that a group of "adventurers" might happen by and find it and be mildly inconvenienced by it for a short period of time then they certainly lack imagination.

They're farmers, and they didn't pay the druid, who likes a good joke/comeuppance as well as the next guy... and they know the 'travelers' will hear of it and go after it because Old Zeke will be sure to mention amongst the local legends that he'll tell the 'travelers' next he spots them in the tavern.

QuoteEspecially when the same bag of gold could be used to hire a man to take care of said adventurers.

There is no 'bag of gold'... and no one in town is willing to go toe-to-toe with a bunch of armed transients.

QuoteFirst off I loathe the concept of a world where "adventurer" is actually a job description.

Me too, that's why I use the word 'traveler'

Quote from: jibbajibba;754537So curse someone with a blade then never hits its target.
Curse them with a weapon that deals to its wielder what it deals to its opponent. Curse them with a suit of armour that when the last buckle is tied boils the body of the incumbent and burns it away to dust. Curse them with a the kiss of a gypsy or the tender embrace of a shade of a love long lost. But don't curse them with a blade then gets -1 to hit or a girdle that changes their sex.

Someone gets it thank God!

As I said in my first post in this thread make it make sense in setting and if it's really nasty get player buy in. Remember I had a cursed item that literally changed me from a F/M to a straight fighter with none of the perks in 2e for 2 LEVELS! And not low level either.

... so you're saying don't be a 12 year old doofus. OK, productive, I guess. :)

Quote from: jibbajibba;754527all well and good and people like to speculate and the fabled tomb of the dragon emperor and all that is great stuff but ... you canna change the laws of physics

Mercury reacts with most halogens to form salts and it reacts with aluminium and aluminium compounds. All of which means a pool of mercury isn't going to stay a pool for 2000 years. Likewise arrow traps and  complex mechanics aren't going to last long.
If there are traps about in tombs then they will rely on simple physics like weight on tipping points and the like and even these will be prey to the vagaries of minor earth tremors and the like.

That's all well and good.  So maybe they don't last 2000 years.

Did Hollywood make them up, then, since they only lasted 200 years?

(You know, the point of the rebuttal?)

Quote from: jibbajibba;754537So curse someone with a blade then never hits its target.
Curse them with a weapon that deals to its wielder what it deals to its opponent. Curse them with a suit of armour that when the last buckle is tied boils the body of the incumbent and burns it away to dust. Curse them with a the kiss of a gypsy or the tender embrace of a shade of a love long lost. But don't curse them with a blade then gets -1 to hit or a girdle that changes their sex.

I agree that setting-wise you'd want to go the debilitating route.  In fact...

Quote from: mcbobbo;754223Okay,  that's a good point.  It really ought to take the PC out of active status to be worthwhile.   Kill or maim or completely disable.  E.g. a Sword of Pacifism.

But is that more or less dickish?   :)

But is that more or less dickish?

Instead of being the wrong gender as a goof, you now have to make a completely new character.

And lets not forget that in the days of old, you started at level 1 more often than not.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754638That's all well and good.  So maybe they don't last 2000 years.

Did Hollywood make them up, then, since they only lasted 200 years?

(You know, the point of the rebuttal?)

Well 200 years was hyperbole.... the reality is the pool of mercury described as featuring in the tomb of the Qin Emperor is unlikely to have lasted 100 years if that much mercury could even be purified.

The point is that tombs with traps and curses were not made up my hollywood but they were largely created by storytellers.

I have as it happens been inside the great pyramid and the tombs at the Valley of the Kings, climbed The towers at Palenque and Chichen Itza, wandered round Knosos, climbed the walls of Ankor Wat and clambered over the temples of Bagan with numerous stops in between.
Try as I might I have never found evidence of anything resembling a decent trap.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754641I agree that setting-wise you'd want to go the debilitating route.  In fact...



But is that more or less dickish?

Instead of being the wrong gender as a goof, you now have to make a completely new character.

And lets not forget that in the days of old, you started at level 1 more often than not.

Like I said its all about context. I want my world to be logical and internally consistent.
I would never create an object to render a PC to no longer be able to use their powers. An NPC or monster in my game might under certain circumstances create an item that kills an opponent. The easiest way to do this is usually to create said item them hit the PC with it repeatedly as this is the surest way to make sure it works as designed. However, under some circumstances guile is required but in such circumstances what would changing my target's gender do to lead towards that goal?

Look we can all sit round and try and justify this stuff through some unusual combination of PC motivations and opportunities but like I said a trillion posts ago the reason this stuff is in there is just because it was funny and as a player gotcha. The game didn't need to be consistent and make sense it was just a game it could be trivial and goofy. Trying to retrospectively pretend that it was all part of some elaborate in depth backstory is bollocks.

In my games if you get cursed you will be properly cursed and chances are you will wish that PC was dead if the curse didn't actually kill you. Random shit thrown in for laughs that simply makes you have less fun until you jump through a DM identified hoop to relieve it nah not my thing.

My 5e playtest group is currently in a living (evil) dungeon where every magic item (beyond minor items like potions and scrolls) the party finds is both a blessing and a curse, in an attempt by the dungeon to lure the players to evil.  The players have to decide if the benefit of the item outweighs the drawback.  My players seem to love it.  For instance, one of them has become overly greedy over a weapon, another overly reckless over a suit of armor.  They love playing up the disadvantage in character, in trying to resist the curse to use the item to fight evil, all while that item itself is trying to stir evil within them.

Quote from: Mistwell;754646My 5e playtest group is currently in a living (evil) dungeon where every magic item (beyond minor items like potions and scrolls) the party finds is both a blessing and a curse, in an attempt by the dungeon to lure the players to evil.  The players have to decide if the benefit of the item outweighs the drawback.  My players seem to love it.  For instance, one of them has become overly greedy over a weapon, another overly reckless over a suit of armor.  They love playing up the disadvantage in character, in trying to resist the curse to use the item to fight evil, all while that item itself is trying to stir evil within them.

See that is better stuff.

The curse is what the item makes the PCs do to retain it.

In the very first Dying Earth story, Turjan of Mir is trying to create life, and we become acquainted with several of his failures.

Cursed magic items are like that.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753975If you think cursed items = automatic dick GM then you are a fucking moron.

Welcome to the last 38 years of D&D.  This hobby is full of fucking morons.

Quote from: jhkim;754011Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

Dying Earth is FULL of cursed items and weird ass shit.

Gary Gygax loved Dying Earth.

Step 3 is left as an exercise to the student.

Quote from: Marleycat;754322In otherwords fuck Gygax and his bullshit gender/species change items and even worse 12 year old guy joke items. It wasn't funny then and less so now.

Waa waa waa waa waa.

Quote from: Old Geezer;754675Waa waa waa waa waa.

You game your way and I'll do the same but thanks for the constructive criticism.:)