Quote from: Saladman;753999Cursed items, like pit traps and morale rolls for hirelings, are a foundational part of the game.  They don't intrinsically bother me.

I do think some of the harsher ones from the early days of the game are ill conceived.  If you must place a cursed scroll that, on a failed save, dissolves the character into goo that drains away, then at least place clues in game so the player can make a meaningful choice.

Quote from: mcbobbo;754005You realize this is metagaming, yeah?

IRL booby traps were credited for 11% of the deaths in Vietnam and 17% of the injuries.
(...)
I can't go so far as to advocate a fantasy game mirror reality, but it probably should either reflect it or explain why it doesn't.

In my experience, the vast majority of people want some mix of world verisimilitude and fair challenge (i.e. PCs don't randomly die just from being in the wrong place at the wrong time). They just draw the line differently about how much of each they want.

Regarding verisimilitude, though, most cursed items are piss-poor booby traps. Booby traps in Vietnam and Iraq were meaningfully built and placed with a purpose. I don't think anyone is complaining about having traps specifically to guard treasure. This is fundamentally different from a girdle of masculinity/femininity or a cursed -1 sword that turns up in a treasure pile. These don't seem like reasonable precautions taken by orcs to protect their treasure - they seem like "gotcha's" from the GM to annoy players.

Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

Quote from: jhkim;754011Regarding verisimilitude, though, most cursed items are piss-poor booby traps. Booby traps in Vietnam and Iraq were meaningfully built and placed with a purpose. I don't think anyone is complaining about having traps specifically to guard treasure. This is fundamentally different from a girdle of masculinity/femininity or a cursed -1 sword that turns up in a treasure pile. These don't seem like reasonable precautions taken by orcs to protect their treasure - they seem like "gotcha's" from the GM to annoy players.

Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

Have you not read half of the posts in this thread?  Several people gave several reasons why a cursed item may come into creation, and not all of them were intentionally made.  Most of the reasons were for other things.

So we've established you've got many reasons why a cursed item can exist.  It's not a far cry to assume that cursed item may be located anywhere, even in a monster's horde.  Maybe the monster knows about it?  Maybe they don't?

Point is, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why and how the PCs may encounter a cursed item that have nothing to do with the DM being a dick.

Quote from: Gabriel2;753990I agree with most everything you've said in this topic so far, but AD&D cursed items bear no resemblance to Stormbringer.

They are items that "to all tests appear to be" the beneficial version of the item.  So they even throw false readings on an Identify attempt?  Classy.  Several exist only to deliver their GOTCHA payload once and then are expended and useless (so forget using them for beneficial purposes, because once you know the real function, it's too late).  IIRC, there are a few which perform to the first few initial uses as the beneficial item and "to all tests appear to be" the benficial item, only for the curse to jump up with it's GOTCHA after the 6th use or so.

It's notable that just about every cursed item in fiction isn't a cursed item in D&D.  They'd almost always have to be artifacts.  

Admittedly, it's been a long time since I read the Elric books, but I definitely seem to recall that Elric knew Stormbringer was bad news before he ever took it up.  Stormbringer also wasn't a -1 Sword.  In D&D it will be at the very minimum a Life Stealer sword which isn't a cursed item at all.    Stormbringer was also a character more than an item.

Stormbringer is not an item you have to hide in a treasure horde and have it fake out anti-virus/firewall measures in order for a player to want it.  A GM doesn't have to pixelbitch to get players to get players to accidentally touch it and fall for its negative aspects.  Put Stormbringer into a treasure horde and I guarantee there will be at least one player in your group falling all over himself to take up the black sword.  He will embrace the "curse" in exchange for what it offers.

Stormbringer isn't a AD&D cursed item because it's not a tournament gotcha.  It's a character that offers trade offs.  It's a long term trap, not an immediate Fuck You.  It is a snare willingly and knowingly triggered.  It is a web which Elric continually entangles himself more and more with over time.

I don't feel it's a valid comparison to categorize Stormbringer and Gauntlets of Weakness as the same thing.

great post.

Warehouse 13 does a sort of cool "cursed item" creation theme with their artifacts; much better than some mechanical process of some games like somebody would be working at the magic item factory. It is harder, but it is more cool if each item is special.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753989I will admit that those types of arguments probably rub me the wrong way more than they probably should.  For some reasons, people who whine if the treasure in the adventure isn't tailored to them fill me with disdain

I mean, I sort of get the whole "The game is supposed to be fun for the players too, and how can I have fun if my dual wielding scimitar specialized build PC only comes across magic maces or axes?"  Sort of.  But IMO, the game world exists outside of the PCs, and isn't catered to them.  I.e., that monster had a +1 mace long before the PCs ever showed up, and it's not changing into a scimitar just because none of the PCs want to use one.

Don't like it?  Find a way to sell it, or trade it or whatever.  It's like that certain breed of player wants the game to maximize their very specific character build, and they should be catered to.  Magic item christmas tree lists are another example.

That  attitude of the treasure needs to suit the PCs are just the other side of the coin to the DM puts in creatures or items to deliberately thwart the PCs. Its the same thing.

Like I said and you noted in your example. Put yourself in the role of the monster. Where and how do you place traps, what monsters are here, what is their ecology. If you do all of that and the setting is consistent then your are good to go. I actually hate the "give players clues that the xxx will kill them" because if I was a genius level lich or whatever setting up a trap I sure as shit wouldn't leave any clues about it lying round.

Quote from: jhkim;754011I don't think anyone is complaining about having traps specifically to guard treasure. This is fundamentally different from a girdle of masculinity/femininity or a cursed -1 sword that turns up in a treasure pile. These don't seem like reasonable precautions taken by orcs to protect their treasure - they seem like "gotcha's" from the GM to annoy players.

Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

In one case the reason we had for why the Girdle existed was that it was originally conceived as a flawless disguise by an assassin who had several made so they could change back and fourth as needed. In another it was a practical joke.

Why is there a -1 sword in the orcs treasure? Because it belonged to a former adventurer who died while using it. A parting "gift" from a jilted lover who enchanted his personal sword. Or this may be the current resting place of a sword that has done in a string of adventurers. Who originally made it and why? What if it isnt really cursed? It is only wieldable safely by its original owner or someone from that bloodline.

The WHY can become an adventure in itself. Or at least an interesting tale to discover.

Though my personal favorite was a +1 sword that one player was just dead convinced was cursed because she invariably had a bad roll while using it and never could get rid of. The sword liked her and was following her like a puppy.

We had a player who had a Crossbow of Accuracy that he literally never hit anything with. Every time he'd use it he'd botch the roll. The DM finally decided that he was such a bad shot that the crossbow had become a Crossbow of Inaccuracy.

What was great was some time later he found ANOTHER Crossbow of Accuracy in a random treasure pile.

Quote from: jhkim;754011Regarding verisimilitude, though, most cursed items are piss-poor booby traps. Booby traps in Vietnam and Iraq were meaningfully built and placed with a purpose. I don't think anyone is complaining about having traps specifically to guard treasure. This is fundamentally different from a girdle of masculinity/femininity or a cursed -1 sword that turns up in a treasure pile. These don't seem like reasonable precautions taken by orcs to protect their treasure - they seem like "gotcha's" from the GM to annoy players.

Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

I don't think all are meant as traps. Many probably just ended up int he horde somehow, and were created for other reasons that don't have anything to do with dungeons. Many cursed items strike me as artifacts of revenge or even espionage.

Personally, as long as you are not tripping over cursed items left and right, it doesn't disrupt my suspension of disbelief. If it is something that glares out at me immediately during play, then sure it will be problematic. But if it is something that only has issues when you examine it closely and at length afterwards, then I wont notice or care. I find the existence of such items in a horde fairly believable though.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;754029Personally, as long as you are not tripping over cursed items left and right, it doesn't disrupt my suspension of disbelief. If it is something that glares out at me immediately during play, then sure it will be problematic. But if it is something that only has issues when you examine it closely and at length afterwards, then I wont notice or care. I find the existence of such items in a horde fairly believable though.

Exactly. As a player I've run into all of maybee a dozen cursed items. And probably half of those I think we avoided by being careful. The others we just took in stride and dealt with. The really mean ones we usually had some minor forewarning something was up.

And for that matter. Why isnt anyone bitching about poison potion bottled hidden in treasures? We lost more characters to those damn things than the cursed items!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;754016Have you not read half of the posts in this thread?  Several people gave several reasons why a cursed item may come into creation, and not all of them were intentionally made.  Most of the reasons were for other things.

So we've established you've got many reasons why a cursed item can exist.  It's not a far cry to assume that cursed item may be located anywhere, even in a monster's horde.  Maybe the monster knows about it?  Maybe they don't?

Point is, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why and how the PCs may encounter a cursed item that have nothing to do with the DM being a dick.

And I'm not arguing that 100% of all cursed item appearances mean that the GM is a certified dick. The OP alleges that something like that was "implied" in an unspecified article, but no one has actually argued that point.

So yes, I agree that there exists at least one hypothetical case where the PCs encounter a cursed item where the reason is not the DM being a dick.

That said, I also stand by my statement that in my experience, cursed items generally come across as metagame "gotchas" for the players, rather than reasonable parts of the game world. Of course, there are a lot of common elements of dungeons that seem meta-game motivated - as if they are designed for adventurers to go through, rather than being natural parts of the world that adventurers happen upon. For example, often a magic weapon is lying in the treasure hoard of a group of orcs as a reward for PCs, when logically if they had that weapons, the orcs would use it to defend themselves.

With any meta-game GM move, I can afterwards come up with an in-game justification if pressed. However, the meta-game explanation fits much better to the pattern of use than the in-game world explanation.

QuoteTell you what ... why don't you go back and read my whole post, instead of stopping dead on the third sentence?  You'd find, oddly enough, that exact same sentiment expressed.

Tell you what... why don't you drop the bratty attitude? It's not impressing anyone.

Once again we have discovered that rules can't fix asshat gm.

The cursed items are only a problem if the gm makes them a problem.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;754003Unless the mind flayers actually won the D&D monster franchise wars.

Now all monsters are mind flayers.

I salute you. Have a joy joy day.

Quote from: jhkim;75401Given the defined cost and effort of magic item creation, it seems bizarre to picture someone putting that into creating items like a cursed -1 sword.

Okay,  that's a good point.  It really ought to take the PC out of active status to be worthwhile.   Kill or maim or completely disable.  E.g. a Sword of Pacifism.

But is that more or less dickish?  

Cursed items are fine by me. They can give you a great opportunity to roleplay.

Nightmare from Soul Calibur 2 is pretty much the perfect example. Cursed sword that possesses the wielder and forces him to slaughter to feed it while he desperately tries to fight its influence.