Ah yes. The bag of pooping. Nice one there.

Quote from: Ladybird;753710I wish I lived in a world without computer viruses, too.

Poor analogy.  Quite aside from that most computer viruses don't take months or years to develop, or require much in the way of financial outlay, they're intended to propagate very quickly, can affect hundreds of thousands of users within weeks, and can roll around cyberspace for years, continuing to infect computers.  That's quite a high payoff for a nasty-minded hacker.

A cursed magical item, by contrast, affects (usually) one and one person only.  Depending on the enchanting system, it can take many months to create.  They usually require the same expensive and/or hard-to-find components to create.  And then you've got to find some way to get it into the target's hands, without a chance that the trail will lead back to you.  Me, if I wanted revenge that badly, I'd just hire an assassin to put a crossbow bolt in the back of the mofo's head.

Quote from: Raven;753734Who says they're created on purpose? A cursed sword might have become so due to a simple miscalculation in it's creation, or gradually as the result of the many dark deeds it was used for over hundreds of years.

Tell you what ... why don't you go back and read my whole post, instead of stopping dead on the third sentence?  You'd find, oddly enough, that exact same sentiment expressed.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753730Cursed magic items are just another type of trap, so if you feel using them at all is a dickish move then remove them along with any other traps. While you're at it, go ahead and take out any element that may cause harm to a PC save those that warn the player in writing before appearing in the game.

That way there can be no surprises, danger, or uncertainty as the special snowflakes drift from "challenge" to "challenge" kicking all the ass they are entitled to and feeling oh so good about themselves. We wouldn't want the unexpected to interfere with their goals or prevent them from achieving self actualization.

Cunts.

Hrm.  You know, we might as well raise the point of Dick Posters as well ... the ones who conflate (say) "Cursed items are generally illogical and denote a dick GM" with "O Nos, take away anything that can discomfort a PC."  

Asshole.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753824Ah, what would any internet discussion be without gross hyperbole?

+1.

Quote from: Bill;753833It is also possible some players think all items should be available, provide bonuses, and make their build more effective.

That *IS* the next step in this argument.

I've witnessed it at a couple of different boards.

The "cursed object whiners" then change tack and start arguing that it's a dick move to include, as example, polearms or heavy armor in treasure hoards when nobody in the adventuring party can/does use polearms or heavy armor.

I've found that these are typically the people that also bitch about random character generation, class-based systems, level-based systems, experience points and/or Vancian magic (usually multiples).

Yet, oddly, a surprising number of them hang out on forums dedicated to that style of game.

Paizo's site is rife with them.  I fear for the eventual second edition of that game.

Quote from: Ravenswing;753965Hrm.  You know, we might as well raise the point of Dick Posters as well ... the ones who conflate (say) "Cursed items are generally illogical and denote a dick GM" with "O Nos, take away anything that can discomfort a PC."  

Asshole.

If you think cursed items = automatic dick GM then you are a fucking moron.

Quote from: dragoner;753857Yup.


re cursed items: It is funny, in that when I think of a cursed sword, Stormbringer or Mournblade immediately pop into my mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormbringer

I guess we all have different media influences. But what I have to laugh about, is that one of my characters got stuck with a -1 sword once, the DM thinking he was smart, but I used it for a while because it could still damage creatures having to be hit with a magic weapon.

Stormbringer IS the iconic cursed item for me.


And...That cursed sword of yours that can hit magic creatures...quite cool.

Quote from: shuddemell;753801It's amazing to me how much the "entitlement" attitude has seeped into the hobby... From my point of view, it isn't dickish if it makes sense in context with the setting.

I agree with this, but it is possible for a gm to create things in a setting that are dickish despite fitting in well.

Sort of like having a world infested with wraiths due to the poor judgement of a guild of necromancers. Then wraiths ninja murder pc's in their sleep because they are drawn to the pc's heroic life force.

Or to put it differently.

A cursed item is a cursed item. It is neither purposeful nor dickish in and of itself.

It is the application that is the problem by random and infrequent INDIVIDUAL DMs whims. Cursed items? Traps? etc? All irrelevant to the fact that it is the DM that is the problem. Just like there are individual absolute dick players.

The real problem starts when someone has a bad experience, or worse yet - just imagines there is a mere possibility for a bad experience - and wants to "protect" everyone - at gunpoint - from these evil elements.

This is like the occasional obsession some board game designers get with trying to stop some imaginary player from cheating in their game in any way. News flash. You cant! If they really want to. Someone WILL find a way to cheat no mater how hammerd down ironclad no way it could happen rules you wrote.

A bad DM is going to be a Bad DM. A bad player is going to be a Bad Player.

Quote from: kythri;753974The "cursed object whiners" then change tack and start arguing that it's a dick move to include, as example, polearms or heavy armor in treasure hoards when nobody in the adventuring party can/does use polearms or heavy armor.

.

I will admit that those types of arguments probably rub me the wrong way more than they probably should.  For some reasons, people who whine if the treasure in the adventure isn't tailored to them fill me with disdain

I mean, I sort of get the whole "The game is supposed to be fun for the players too, and how can I have fun if my dual wielding scimitar specialized build PC only comes across magic maces or axes?"  Sort of.  But IMO, the game world exists outside of the PCs, and isn't catered to them.  I.e., that monster had a +1 mace long before the PCs ever showed up, and it's not changing into a scimitar just because none of the PCs want to use one.

Don't like it?  Find a way to sell it, or trade it or whatever.  It's like that certain breed of player wants the game to maximize their very specific character build, and they should be catered to.  Magic item christmas tree lists are another example.

Quote from: Bill;753979Stormbringer IS the iconic cursed item for me.

I agree with most everything you've said in this topic so far, but AD&D cursed items bear no resemblance to Stormbringer.

They are items that "to all tests appear to be" the beneficial version of the item.  So they even throw false readings on an Identify attempt?  Classy.  Several exist only to deliver their GOTCHA payload once and then are expended and useless (so forget using them for beneficial purposes, because once you know the real function, it's too late).  IIRC, there are a few which perform to the first few initial uses as the beneficial item and "to all tests appear to be" the benficial item, only for the curse to jump up with it's GOTCHA after the 6th use or so.

It's notable that just about every cursed item in fiction isn't a cursed item in D&D.  They'd almost always have to be artifacts.  

Admittedly, it's been a long time since I read the Elric books, but I definitely seem to recall that Elric knew Stormbringer was bad news before he ever took it up.  Stormbringer also wasn't a -1 Sword.  In D&D it will be at the very minimum a Life Stealer sword which isn't a cursed item at all.    Stormbringer was also a character more than an item.

Stormbringer is not an item you have to hide in a treasure horde and have it fake out anti-virus/firewall measures in order for a player to want it.  A GM doesn't have to pixelbitch to get players to get players to accidentally touch it and fall for its negative aspects.  Put Stormbringer into a treasure horde and I guarantee there will be at least one player in your group falling all over himself to take up the black sword.  He will embrace the "curse" in exchange for what it offers.

Stormbringer isn't a AD&D cursed item because it's not a tournament gotcha.  It's a character that offers trade offs.  It's a long term trap, not an immediate Fuck You.  It is a snare willingly and knowingly triggered.  It is a web which Elric continually entangles himself more and more with over time.

I don't feel it's a valid comparison to categorize Stormbringer and Gauntlets of Weakness as the same thing.

Cursed items, like pit traps and morale rolls for hirelings, are a foundational part of the game.  They don't intrinsically bother me.

I do think some of the harsher ones from the early days of the game are ill conceived.  If you must place a cursed scroll that, on a failed save, dissolves the character into goo that drains away, then at least place clues in game so the player can make a meaningful choice.

But here's my test as a player:  I don't want to be penalized solely for interacting with the game world.  That includes cursed items, but its not just about them.  It could be about magic pools or rumors or hired help.  If the pools always curse you, and the rumors always steer you wrong, and the hirelings always betray you, and the magic items are always cursed, you have a dick GM.  If its a 50/50 chance, i.e. a random walk every time you interact with the world, then you know what, you still have a dick GM (or, charitably, just a plain bad one).

Quote from: Omega;753988A bad DM is going to be a Bad DM. A bad player is going to be a Bad Player.

Yes, very.  And truly a bad DM can do lots worse than pick a cursed item out of the book.  Say maybe replacing all the orcs in the module with Mind Flayers...

Quote from: mcbobbo;754002Yes, very.  And truly a bad DM can do lots worse than pick a cursed item out of the book.  Say maybe replacing all the orcs in the module with Mind Flayers...

Unless the mind flayers actually won the D&D monster franchise wars.

Now all monsters are mind flayers.

Quote from: Saladman;753999But here's my test as a player:  I don't want to be penalized solely for interacting with the game world.

You realize this is metagaming, yeah?

IRL booby traps were credited for 11% of the deaths in Vietnam and 17% of the injuries.

Just last month Iraqi insurgents trapped a home, waited for slodiers to search it and blew it up.

Also real life tombs exist with spring loaded crossbows, poisonous powders, lakes of mercury, pits and other hazards that are still dangerous today.

All of the above is done without any magic.  Why wouldn't magic amplify the effectiveness of this sort of behavior?

Also victims of all of the above were doing little more than walking along, doing their jobs.

I can't go so far as to advocate a fantasy game mirror reality, but it probably should either reflect it or explain why it doesn't.

Another reason for there to be a cursed item or trap.

Forgotten trap meant for someone else that never got sprung. Decades later people were still coming across unexploded land mines from World War II and at least one ship was damaged or sunk by a sea mine long after. Every few years you used to hear of some hiker or hunter getting nailed by a bear trap.