Quote from: Ravenswing;753709 What sane enchanter deliberately uses time, ingredients, equipment and arcane power to create something like that?

Who says they're created on purpose? A cursed sword might have become so due to a simple miscalculation in it's creation, or gradually as the result of the many dark deeds it was used for over hundreds of years.

Quote from: jibbajibba;753721In a realised world there are few reasons to make an archway or a weapon that switches someones gender or a dagger that always misses. Since these items are cursed and can't be removed except by a powerful spell or when the owner dies its less likely that they would be in a general treasure collection .

Nah, that's rubbish. We've got people IRL who get born with the wrong gender; if fixing that was as easy as casting a spell, some people would want it, some people would be willing to pay for it, some people would just build a thing for the greater good (The greater good) because they had the skills. A dagger that always misses would be a fun thing to give to your friend the master dagger-fighter as a joke festival present.

Others would just build those things for shits and giggles. It could easily end up in a treasure hoard if someone finds it and chucks it in there, because it just looks like another dagger.

And who says an item is cursed, anyway? It could well have been created for a perfectly sensible and logical reason at the time, but absent of that, in a different situation, it'll look like a curse.

A weed, after all, is just a plant in the wrong place.

I am fine with cursed items. They add a bit of excitement and unknown to the game. As a GM my personal preference is to roll on treasure tables. I feel that is fair, but as long as the GM is placing them occassionally and doing so to make the game more fun and challenging, I think it is totally fine regardless of the method used.

Quote from: jibbajibba;753721Cursed magic items, archways that change your sex, magic pools that drop your chr to 5 these are all holdovers from the start of the hobby when the game was just a game there was little investment in character and the gameworld was a backdrop to exploration. The dungeon was just a game tool to find ways round puzzles traps and monsters.
No surprise it was filled with critters that looked like treasure chests, or baby rabbits or creatures that could survive 300 years between meals.

Quickly D&D outgrew its roots and the roleplay element came to trump the game element. Players wanted character arcs and development and a realist setting that made sense. Where do these orcs sleep, shit, etc what does a hidden lurker eat when the dungeon is only populated by undead ghouls, how would a creature evolve to look like a chest, how long would that actually take compared to the length of their have actualy been chests et etc

As characters became more realised so did their worlds and the chuck everything in for fun mix it all up disappeared, with it the cursed items. Now lets gets things straight we aren't talking cursed items like Stormbringer or the One Ring, ie powerful items with their own agendas we are talking about cursed items that switch your gender or weapons that get -2 to hit etc.

In a realised world there are few reasons to make an archway or a weapon that switches someones gender or a dagger that always misses. Since these items are cursed and can't be removed except by a powerful spell or when the owner dies its less likely that they would be in a general treasure collection .

So they are a part of old school play to be sure but they are a part of old school play like dungeons stocked with traps and wandering monsters who seem unable to set them off, or dungeons with rooms of hungry trolls living a few hundred meters from a room of rat men playing poker.

The rule should always be why would anyone build this or make this or put this here? If the reasons are logical its not a dick move by the DM.

The Lich will use all his powers to kill the PCs and since he can prep his lair and has had a long time to do it should represent that. Should the DM review what the players have or what their tactics have been before they design the lich's lair No absolutely not. The Lich's defenses have to be constructed from its point of view in light of its knowledge.

I don't know about this. I do not believe it has been a steady evolution toward RP and exploration. One of the true delights of 3E for me when it first came out was a return to some of these game elements. I feel I probably went too far in the RP direction leading up to it, and going back to these things was a pleasure for me as a player and a GM. Nothing wrong with that aspect of play in my opinion a long as it doesn't overwhelm the other elements.

Quote from: jibbajibba;753732Nah that a load of bollocks.

Do you build a trap that only works once the bad guys have broken into your house killed you and are taking all your stuff or do you spend that effort building traps to stop them breaking into your house in the first place?

You are thinking as a GM making a challenge for his PCs and not thinking as a monster/creature/NPC with a set knowledge base defending themselves from armed invaders.

Now if you have a trap that guards a common hallway in your dungeon that the denizens use all the time and if you step on any of the orange squares a squillion tonnes of molton lead pour on your head that is a dick move because its a trap that would be set off 3 or 4 times a day by standard usage and is impossible to reset....

Lets not forget that this a GAME. That cursed magic item could have a fantastic backstory about how it came to be that way.....

OR  

It could be as simple as the equivalent to drawing a card that says " lose a turn and go back 2 spaces"

Cursed items, tricky niche monsters, traps that confuse and confound, these are all just components to spice up the game. The same applies to beneficial off the wall things such as eating fruit that raises a stat or gaining the benefits of a bless spell for doing something that aids a friendly ghostly spirit.

Having said that, not ALL fantasy roleplaying has to be in the same vein as D&D. I don't make use of the same conventions when running GURPS fantasy that I do when running D&D.

D&D is its own brand of insanity. Nothing sums up the essence of D&D gameplay better than this old forgotten SNL sketch: (totally work safe despite the title)

http://vimeo.com/38130529


So remember, D&D is just a game in which many outlandish things take place.

......or you will have to fight the bear.

Quote from: Ladybird;753737Nah, that's rubbish. We've got people IRL who get born with the wrong gender; if fixing that was as easy as casting a spell, some people would want it, some people would be willing to pay for it, some people would just build a thing for the greater good (The greater good) because they had the skills. A dagger that always misses would be a fun thing to give to your friend the master dagger-fighter as a joke festival present.

Others would just build those things for shits and giggles. It could easily end up in a treasure hoard if someone finds it and chucks it in there, because it just looks like another dagger.

And who says an item is cursed, anyway? It could well have been created for a perfectly sensible and logical reason at the time, but absent of that, in a different situation, it'll look like a curse.

A weed, after all, is just a plant in the wrong place.

well to start off with spell that changed gender .. fine I can see a use for that enchanting that power onto a girdle or into a pool or not an archway ...no

You can't throw away a cursed dagger. I can actually see that someone might curse a dagger to slip to an opponent in a certain fight my issue is that this stuff shouldn't turn up in a random horde. A cursed item stays with the owner til a spell is cast to remove it or the person dies. under the circumstances where it might end up in the hands of an adventurer I can see they might die and it might be on their body or something but in the bandits treasure horde unlikely as they would have picked it up to use as it looks like a magical blade.
In fact that is one of my other gripes monsters that don't use their magic because the GM randomly rolled it after they had been. Oh look by chance the orc chief had a +5 defender hmm...why wasn't he making more use of that?

Anyway  the majority of cursed items are really just there for the players to have a laugh. It wasn't a serious game it was a bit of fun no one cared if your PC grew a third eye or started farting all the time it was just humour more like Munchkin than anything else.

And yes the game did move from "lighthearted fun" to serious roleplay and it did that because the bulk of fans wanted that to happen and then it did move to charop mastery because that was what the bulk of fans wanted. People might not like it but no point denying it.

The GM may or may not be a dick, but I'm pretty sure the lich is.  Making a trap in a hallway, making a trap in a sword, all the same thing.  One prevents them from getting in, one strikes back at them for you from beyond the grave.

I think people forget, whiny cunts stay on the farm or remain apprentice to the cobbler. PCs don't.

Quote from: jibbajibba;753744well to start off with spell that changed gender .. fine I can see a use for that enchanting that power onto a girdle or into a pool or not an archway ...no

As a first step in breaking new slaves. As a fun curiosity for parties. As a trap to fuck with people intruding in their dungeon. Shits and giggles. As a sex toy. To balance out genders so a particular species has enough viable breeding pairs.

That's six in a minute, you're welcome.

QuoteYou can't throw away a cursed dagger.

Yeah, that rule's a bit daft. On the other hand, if you're skilful enough to be able to create that for your buddy as a present, you're likely powerful enough to be able to counter it afterwards, once everybody's had a good laugh at the assassin's guildmistress faffing about.

QuoteI can actually see that someone might curse a dagger to slip to an opponent in a certain fight my issue is that this stuff shouldn't turn up in a random horde. A cursed item stays with the owner til a spell is cast to remove it or the person dies. under the circumstances where it might end up in the hands of an adventurer I can see they might die and it might be on their body or something but in the bandits treasure horde unlikely as they would have picked it up to use as it looks like a magical blade.

Unless the bandits are smart enough not to use it, or don't want to give up their other weapons.

QuoteAnd yes the game did move from "lighthearted fun" to serious roleplay and it did that because the bulk of fans wanted that to happen and then it did move to charop mastery because that was what the bulk of fans wanted. People might not like it but no point denying it.

Your axe, it's looking pretty well ground. There's plenty of space between "we're taking this seriously" and "we're obsessed with every tiny mechanic".

Ignoring rules or parts of a game because the DM is a dick seems a pretty silly thing to do because it's not like the DM will stop being a dick.  He or she will find another way to be a dick.  

Don't play with dicks.

In my early experience, cursed items were to keep the players cautious.  The didn't just automatically start using every magic item they found without at least doing some research or casting spells on it first.  Traps were used to enforce Darwin awards.  If you just zerg'd into a dungeon, you died.  Which makes total sense since defenders have been using traps since Neanderthal days.  I suppose you could reference my sig to see how I feel about traps and cursed weapons.

Also, as a matter of fact, in my superdungeon I just finished there is a cursed item and rust monsters (among other things).  The PCs end up stumbling upon two dead bodies, one of them that has shown signs of obviously being eaten.  They were the two remaining survivors from a much earlier battle with demons and fled in terror to a hidden room where the bodies are now.  Both were driven insane from their battle.  One of them was badly wounded, and after a couple days, the other one ate him.  Then died of starvation himself.  He has a magic item that has since been cursed.  Anyone who takes this item and uses it will be cursed to only desire long pork until it can be successfully removed.

For the rust monsters, they are pets of a bullywug tribe.  The bullywugs don't have any metal tools themselves, so partnering with rust monsters is a perfect fit to keep pesky adventurers (and rival humanoid species) out of their area.

I don't think I'm being a dick by including these two things in the adventure.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;753749Ignoring rules or parts of a game because the DM is a dick seems a pretty silly thing to do because it's not like the DM will stop being a dick.  He or she will find another way to be a dick.  

Don't play with dicks.

In my early experience, cursed items were to keep the players cautious.  The didn't just automatically start using every magic item they found without at least doing some research or casting spells on it first.  Traps were used to enforce Darwin awards.  If you just zerg'd into a dungeon, you died.  Which makes total sense since defenders have been using traps since Neanderthal days.  I suppose you could reference my sig to see how I feel about traps and cursed weapons.

Also, as a matter of fact, in my superdungeon I just finished there is a cursed item and rust monsters (among other things).  The PCs end up stumbling upon two dead bodies, one of them that has shown signs of obviously being eaten.  They were the two remaining survivors from a much earlier battle with demons and fled in terror to a hidden room where the bodies are now.  Both were driven insane from their battle.  One of them was badly wounded, and after a couple days, the other one ate him.  Then died of starvation himself.  He has a magic item that has since been cursed.  Anyone who takes this item and uses it will be cursed to only desire long pork until it can be successfully removed.

For the rust monsters, they are pets of a bullywug tribe.  The bullywugs don't have any metal tools themselves, so partnering with rust monsters is a perfect fit to keep pesky adventurers (and rival humanoid species) out of their area.

I don't think I'm being a dick by including these two things in the adventure.

Indeed stuff that is thought out and logical is undickish.

Adding 12 rust monsters because the guy with the Plate +4 and +5 sword turned out to be too powerful for your dungeon is dickish.

etc....

Quote from: Ladybird;753748As a first step in breaking new slaves. As a fun curiosity for parties. As a trap to fuck with people intruding in their dungeon. Shits and giggles. As a sex toy. To balance out genders so a particular species has enough viable breeding pairs.

That's six in a minute, you're welcome.



Yeah, that rule's a bit daft. On the other hand, if you're skilful enough to be able to create that for your buddy as a present, you're likely powerful enough to be able to counter it afterwards, once everybody's had a good laugh at the assassin's guildmistress faffing about.



Unless the bandits are smart enough not to use it, or don't want to give up their other weapons.



Your axe, it's looking pretty well ground. There's plenty of space between "we're taking this seriously" and "we're obsessed with every tiny mechanic".

See I don't take it too seriously but I do take it logically so your six ideas are all crap.

And yes my axe is feeling well ground and its gone 10pm and I am in HK so tie to hit Wan Chai and get into some trouble.

I feel so lucky nobody posted this yet!

Honestly,  why wouldn't the lich be a dick to the players?  Why wouldn't any monster the party wants to murder and plunder?

It seems more metagame to insist that they wouldn't be aware that people are trying to kill them and take their stuff.

I'm fine with rust monsters if you give the players some clues that say watch out, there might be something very odd near here. Though from what I have seen with 5e Rogues it may well be an epic fight if she had a bone or obsidian weapon.

Quote from: Marleycat;753764I'm fine with rust monsters if you give the players some clues that say watch out, there might be something very odd near here. Though from what I have seen with 5e Rogues it may well be an epic fight if she had a bone or obsidian weapon.

Yes, there are clues, like random small piles of rust here and there, but only actively looking players will really notice (and really, all PCs should be actively looking ).  One of the tunnels actually has an iron ore vein in it (where most of the piles are) that leads to a nursery with rust monster eggs.  Imagine what creative players could do with those


*on a side note, the kind of players in my group do things like: paralyzing the basilisk from earlier in the adventure and covering it in burlap, and when they are staking out the keep they need to infiltrate, they end up flying the basilisk over the keep walls (bag untied) and when it lands dispelling the paralysis.

Quote from: CRKrueger;753745The GM may or may not be a dick, but I'm pretty sure the lich is.  .

Agreed. It is probably also true as well that being undead for centuries or even thousands of years leads many of them to not think in ways that appear rational to us. Boredom, insanity, etc will take their toll.