I freely admit I have lead a fairly sheltered gaming life playing mostly with long term groups of friends in long running games. I did spend a couple of years running Encounters at a local store where anyone could show up and you ran into different personalities.

Today I ran across an article that implied that including cursed magic items is a dick GMing move.

Is this a thing in the wider community?

I guess looking back, 4e was bereft of cursed magic items but I didn't realize this was a conscious move. When we have used them in our groups there was either a story element or way to make them ultimately useful. We never used a "Cursed Scroll" now go save versus death or anything like that.

So I guess I'm just looking for perspective.

What is considered dick GMing? Cursed anything? Spell corruption? Rust monsters?

Do you tiptoe around these things or how much of a story reason do you have to have before you include them?

You should fix your title.

But no it's not a community wide thing you just have to use them for a reason like your group. For example I was running a 6/6 elf F/M in a 2e game and my GM loved Blood of the Fold and Temple of Winds of the Sword of Truth books...guess who got the Burger King crown until I leveled to 7/8 after a total buy in for the story arc he planned?

Quote from: Marleycat;753672You should fix your title.

But no it's not a community wide thing you just have to use them for a reason like your group. For example I was running a 6/6 elf F/M in a 2e game and my GM loved Blood of the Fold and Temple of Winds of the Sword of Truth books...guess who got the Burger King crown until I leveled to 7/8 after a total buy in for the story arc he planned?

Thank you, the auto correct on my phone is a railroading dick GM sometimes too.

It's not just cursed items.

Rust monsters. Mimics in the shape of treasure chests. One-way chutes to lower dungeon levels without a way to get back up easily. Ten-ton falling rock traps that could TPK if the Thief misses his trap roll.

There are a lot of dick moves for a referee to pull out right there in the rule book.  Metagamey monsters especially.

Used with seasoned players and sparingly, they're okay. Or in a situation where the players know death is inevitable, like ToEE. But if you just drop these little neutron bombs on players regularly, that's pretty crappy.

Another one: any situation where "you can't use ability X" just because. Like there's anti-divination field around a certain dungeon so you can't use magic to scout ahead. I think that's kind of shitty.

Here's another one that fits: the bag of devouring. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?

Quote from: Scott Anderson;753677It's not just cursed items.

Rust monsters. Mimics in the shape of treasure chests. One-way chutes to lower dungeon levels without a way to get back up easily. Ten-ton falling rock traps that could TPK if the Thief misses his trap roll.

There are a lot of dick moves for a referee to pull out right there in the rule book.  Metagamey monsters especially.

Used with seasoned players and sparingly, they're okay. Or in a situation where the players know death is inevitable, like ToEE. But if you just drop these little neutron bombs on players regularly, that's pretty crappy.

Another one: any situation where "you can't use ability X" just because. Like there's anti-divination field around a certain dungeon so you can't use magic to scout ahead. I think that's kind of shitty.

Here's another one that fits: the bag of devouring. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over?

Thanks for the perspective. A friend GMed us through To using 4e. Most of us had never played the module before but we knew it's reputation. It lived up to it and can see how players that think their character should never die would hate it.

 Spoiler: one player picked up the nick name "pit trap", he hated the Temple.

As for Rust Monsters and such. I'm not as big on gonzo dungeons and if something like that shows up there are usually ecological signs in the description of the dungeon areas. Plus I always viewed some of those monster types as a chance to let other classes shine and the party to use tactics.

I can see how player experience can make a big difference here.

One time this GM was a dick with monsters so we should get rid of those.

This other time a GM was a dick and made me keep rolling dice until I failed, so we should get rid of dice.

This other... other... time a GM interpreted the rules in a dickish way so we should get rid of rules.

Then one time he brought snacks for everyone but me so I think we should get rid of snacks too.

Then one time he made me sit in the crappy chair to be a dick so we should also get rid of all furniture.

Quote from: Piestrio;753682One time this GM was a dick with monsters so we should get rid of those.

This other time a GM was a dick and made me keep rolling dice until I failed, so we should get rid of dice.

This other... other... time a GM interpreted the rules in a dickish way so we should get rid of rules.

Then one time he brought snacks for everyone but me so I think we should get rid of snacks too.

Then one time he made me sit in the crappy chair to be a dick so we should also get rid of all furniture.

One time at Band Camp......

This is what I think of when I read "disk GM's"

It's all to do with being fair; don't try to fuck over the PC's, give them opportunities to get themselves fucked over.

If you're including cursed items and trap monsters because they'd fit the setting, go nuts! Bad guy's a sorcerer, worried about all those pesky warrior types? Ace! Rust monsters! Cursed things that they'd like! Traps you can't hack-and-slash your way out of! Scrolls of explosive runes!

If you're including a rust monster because a few sessions ago Mark dodged a really cunning trap you made and got a suit of magical platemail, and fuck Mark and his stupid paladin and his stupid "I'm going to bring education to the poor kids in the city", he thinks he's so smart, maybe accompany the rust monsters (Because there are ten of them now) with a goblin hunting party, let's say their archers all have arrows of negation which explode as soon as a non-goblin touches them (Because fuck Jess and her stupid archer, too), and have them guard a cursed gidle of flip-out-and-kill-any-child-you see... you're being a dick.

If cursed items are being seeded into adventures just to harass the players then yes. That can rapidly get to be annoying.

But if the item was just rolled up on the random table. Then that is the great god RNG, who has an arrow of slaying with your name on it. Same for traps, monsters, etc.

Some players though either have had bad experiences and thus think ALL bad things should be removed and the DM supressed.
The rest simply cannot accept anything bad happening to their character. They have to be the bestest-mostes-supremest every single second otherwise the DM is being a dick and must be supressed at all costs.

As usual. Varies massively from group to group. But the anti-DM movement seems to get more vocal and stringent the further past 2000 you get.

I've always considered the premise of "Things specifically designed to fuck over player-characters" to be dick moves.

Cursed Magic Items are one example.  What sane enchanter deliberately uses time, ingredients, equipment and arcane power to create something like that?  Wouldn't any sensible culture make them illegal, and impose nasty punishments on any wizard caught doing so?  Wouldn't even the classic trope of the wizard commissioned to make the Cursed Jewelry To Fix The Wagon Of My Ex Who Ditched Me For That Trollop involve some serious retribution?  (And wouldn't insane wizards prove to be particularly unreliable enchanters?  Mad scientists tend to blow themselves up, and I don't figure that mad wizards are much different.)

My notion of "cursed" items comes in a couple flavors: items that have blocks (the GURPS Password spell, for one) preventing its powers from being used by outsiders, or -- more frequently -- items that have acquired curses because of the dark deeds of their owners, but which retain all their normal abilities.

Quote from: Ravenswing;753709What sane enchanter deliberately uses time, ingredients, equipment and arcane power to create something like that?  Wouldn't any sensible culture make them illegal, and impose nasty punishments on any wizard caught doing so?

I wish I lived in a world without computer viruses, too.

Cursed magic items, archways that change your sex, magic pools that drop your chr to 5 these are all holdovers from the start of the hobby when the game was just a game there was little investment in character and the gameworld was a backdrop to exploration. The dungeon was just a game tool to find ways round puzzles traps and monsters.
No surprise it was filled with critters that looked like treasure chests, or baby rabbits or creatures that could survive 300 years between meals.

Quickly D&D outgrew its roots and the roleplay element came to trump the game element. Players wanted character arcs and development and a realist setting that made sense. Where do these orcs sleep, shit, etc what does a hidden lurker eat when the dungeon is only populated by undead ghouls, how would a creature evolve to look like a chest, how long would that actually take compared to the length of their have actualy been chests et etc

As characters became more realised so did their worlds and the chuck everything in for fun mix it all up disappeared, with it the cursed items. Now lets gets things straight we aren't talking cursed items like Stormbringer or the One Ring, ie powerful items with their own agendas we are talking about cursed items that switch your gender or weapons that get -2 to hit etc.

In a realised world there are few reasons to make an archway or a weapon that switches someones gender or a dagger that always misses. Since these items are cursed and can't be removed except by a powerful spell or when the owner dies its less likely that they would be in a general treasure collection .

So they are a part of old school play to be sure but they are a part of old school play like dungeons stocked with traps and wandering monsters who seem unable to set them off, or dungeons with rooms of hungry trolls living a few hundred meters from a room of rat men playing poker.

The rule should always be why would anyone build this or make this or put this here? If the reasons are logical its not a dick move by the DM.

The Lich will use all his powers to kill the PCs and since he can prep his lair and has had a long time to do it should represent that. Should the DM review what the players have or what their tactics have been before they design the lich's lair No absolutely not. The Lich's defenses have to be constructed from its point of view in light of its knowledge.

Cursed magic items are just another type of trap, so if you feel using them at all is a dickish move then remove them along with any other traps. While you're at it, go ahead and take out any element that may cause harm to a PC save those that warn the player in writing before appearing in the game.

That way there can be no surprises, danger, or uncertainty as the special snowflakes drift from "challenge" to "challenge" kicking all the ass they are entitled to and feeling oh so good about themselves. We wouldn't want the unexpected to interfere with their goals or prevent them from achieving self actualization.

Cunts.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;753730Cursed magic items are just another type of trap, so if you feel using them at all is a dickish move then remove them along with any other traps. While you're at it, go ahead and take out any element that may cause harm to a PC save those that warn the player in writing before appearing in the game.

That way there can be no surprises, danger, or uncertainty as the special snowflakes drift from "challenge" to "challenge" kicking all the ass they are entitled to and feeling oh so good about themselves. We wouldn't want the unexpected to interfere with their goals or prevent them from achieving self actualization.

Cunts.

Nah that a load of bollocks.

Do you build a trap that only works once the bad guys have broken into your house killed you and are taking all your stuff or do you spend that effort building traps to stop them breaking into your house in the first place?

You are thinking as a GM making a challenge for his PCs and not thinking as a monster/creature/NPC with a set knowledge base defending themselves from armed invaders.

Now if you have a trap that guards a common hallway in your dungeon that the denizens use all the time and if you step on any of the orange squares a squillion tonnes of molton lead pour on your head that is a dick move because its a trap that would be set off 3 or 4 times a day by standard usage and is impossible to reset....