There's a big difference between living in a different house within hailing distance of several other houses, versus living alone, out in the middle of nowhere.  The latter has been distinctly unsafe in many periods, and the more vulnerable the household appeared, the more unsafe it was.

Not to mention, the medieval period is vast.  There are the various "good king" periods in English and Scandinavian history, for example, where supposedly an escorted maiden could walk from one side of the kingdom to another without trouble.  We don't know how accurate that is, of course, but we do know that it was often written poetically in reference to a past period superior to the writer's.  We also know that such periods are rare.  Now, of course the opposite of complete lawlessness is also rare.

Lawlessness erupts.  When it erupts, if the lawless know where you are, bad things tend to happen.  If you are vulnerable, more bad things happen.   

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 28, 2024, 04:01:05 PM
There's a big difference between living in a different house within hailing distance of several other houses, versus living alone, out in the middle of nowhere.  The latter has been distinctly unsafe in many periods, and the more vulnerable the household appeared, the more unsafe it was.

Not to mention, the medieval period is vast.  There are the various "good king" periods in English and Scandinavian history, for example, where supposedly an escorted maiden could walk from one side of the kingdom to another without trouble.  We don't know how accurate that is, of course, but we do know that it was often written poetically in reference to a past period superior to the writer's.  We also know that such periods are rare.  Now, of course the opposite of complete lawlessness is also rare.

Lawlessness erupts.  When it erupts, if the lawless know where you are, bad things tend to happen.  If you are vulnerable, more bad things happen.

You are literally splitting hairs at this point. Of course a "Lawless" period is dangerous. It's dangerous no matter what time period you're in. There are large swaths of incredibly dangerous lawless parts of Modern American Cities right now. Throwing in a "lawless" qualifier to the discussion doesn't add anything because nothing has changed from the past to the present when it comes to "Lawlessness".

The distinction here is that whether or not say.... a woman going to the another town with only herself and her children to sell the Farm's produce is unrealistic during a stable period of the Medevil era.

It's not.

It's not at all.

Saying there were rape/bandit gangs laying in wait between every single town is where things get into the "the medevil period was absolute hell" lack of realism. Trying to use that as an argument for the place of women in a game is where any argument of 'realism' falls apart... because realistically single women went about the buisness they needed to attend to whether or not men were there... From running a farm to going to market to selling crafts.

What *IS* unrealistic is warrior women, women guards, and women soldiers... But a widow running an Inn at a cross roads by herself is not unrealistic in the slightest.

Quote from: Orphan81 on February 28, 2024, 03:33:03 PM
Oh, not at all suggesting female warriors. Not trying to say they had the same rights as men either.

But some of the previous posts here literally had a guy saying an untended woman would be raped or enslaved in 5 minutes...

That's not how life in medevil Europe was. Some areas were more dangerous than others but plenty of women were left alone for long stretches of time and didn't end up raped and enslaved.

For clarity, the subtopic of a woman living by herself started with honeydipperdavid's reply #22:

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 27, 2024, 01:18:15 AM
And you are not going to a see a single woman farming in Northern Gaul by herself without a community.  She would be raped and enslaved about 30 minutes after a Gaul realized there was a lone woman and easy to capture.  You go to D&D they tend to pull the same kind of oddity with women.  Hell its bad enough when they do it with men, but usually they have some farm hands, I mean maybe they could survive a goblin assault, but the strong single woman farmer all by herself and her 3 kids, OK BOSS.  You can't forget how bad things get the further back in time from a lawlessness perspective.  In medieval europe the laws, punishments and torture was so sever because they had very limited prisons and sheriffs.  They were extreme to make the cost of committing a crime prohibitive, and men still raped, sacked, banditry etc.  And medieval Europe is D&D's setting but rather than rampaging vandals and goths they rampaging ogres and orcs.  Having unwalled towns (Phandalin) is cringe, I have to remake that map.  And in Phandalin the entry level adventure you've got the strong single mother and ther two kids farming.  I do a fair bit of mapping and world building so to me crap like that drives me nutters.

I generally agree with Orphan81, and disagree with honeydipperdavid. During the Viking Age (800-1050), the vikings would live communally in longhouses, so no one would be farming alone, but women had considerable independence. They could own property and do business for themselves. The Laxdaela Saga is about the matriarch Aud the Deep-Minded leading her clan to Iceland.

Medieval England had some more restricted legal rights for women, so they were restricted from many professions - but they can and would still run their own farm, brew beer, or do other simple trades for a living. There were also convents full of single women. A widow running a farm in an unwalled town would not be out of place.

I prefer settings that don't obey 21st century western leftist morality. Or 21st century rightist morality. Or 21st century morality. Or 20th century morality...point is, I exclude Abrahamic morality from my worlds

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2024, 04:33:25 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 27, 2024, 01:18:15 AM
And you are not going to a see a single woman farming in Northern Gaul by herself without a community.  She would be raped and enslaved about 30 minutes after a Gaul realized there was a lone woman and easy to capture.  You go to D&D they tend to pull the same kind of oddity with women.  Hell its bad enough when they do it with men, but usually they have some farm hands, I mean maybe they could survive a goblin assault, but the strong single woman farmer all by herself and her 3 kids, OK BOSS.  You can't forget how bad things get the further back in time from a lawlessness perspective.  In medieval europe the laws, punishments and torture was so sever because they had very limited prisons and sheriffs.  They were extreme to make the cost of committing a crime prohibitive, and men still raped, sacked, banditry etc.  And medieval Europe is D&D's setting but rather than rampaging vandals and goths they rampaging ogres and orcs.  Having unwalled towns (Phandalin) is cringe, I have to remake that map.  And in Phandalin the entry level adventure you've got the strong single mother and ther two kids farming.  I do a fair bit of mapping and world building so to me crap like that drives me nutters.

I generally agree with Orphan81, and disagree with honeydipperdavid. During the Viking Age (800-1050), the vikings would live communally in longhouses, so no one would be farming alone, but women had considerable independence. They could own property and do business for themselves. The Laxdaela Saga is about the matriarch Aud the Deep-Minded leading her clan to Iceland.

Medieval England had some more restricted legal rights for women, so they were restricted from many professions - but they can and would still run their own farm, brew beer, or do other simple trades for a living. There were also convents full of single women. A widow running a farm in an unwalled town would not be out of place.

That's really the thing. I wouldn't expect to find anyone living on a remote farm by themselves in pre-Roman Gaul. As far as I understand the archaeology, the norm for iron age settlements is a walled village with farmlands clustered closely around it. That seems to also be the norm for pre-columbian settlements in Eastern North America and any other context where a pre-industrial and non-nomadic people are living under the threat of inter-tribal warfare. A man living alone in a remote farm, even a trained warrior, would still be screwed if taken by surprise by an armed war party.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 28, 2024, 08:58:02 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2024, 04:33:25 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 27, 2024, 01:18:15 AM
And you are not going to a see a single woman farming in Northern Gaul by herself without a community.  She would be raped and enslaved about 30 minutes after a Gaul realized there was a lone woman and easy to capture.  You go to D&D they tend to pull the same kind of oddity with women.  Hell its bad enough when they do it with men, but usually they have some farm hands, I mean maybe they could survive a goblin assault, but the strong single woman farmer all by herself and her 3 kids, OK BOSS.  You can't forget how bad things get the further back in time from a lawlessness perspective.  In medieval europe the laws, punishments and torture was so sever because they had very limited prisons and sheriffs.  They were extreme to make the cost of committing a crime prohibitive, and men still raped, sacked, banditry etc.  And medieval Europe is D&D's setting but rather than rampaging vandals and goths they rampaging ogres and orcs.  Having unwalled towns (Phandalin) is cringe, I have to remake that map.  And in Phandalin the entry level adventure you've got the strong single mother and ther two kids farming.  I do a fair bit of mapping and world building so to me crap like that drives me nutters.

I generally agree with Orphan81, and disagree with honeydipperdavid. During the Viking Age (800-1050), the vikings would live communally in longhouses, so no one would be farming alone, but women had considerable independence. They could own property and do business for themselves. The Laxdaela Saga is about the matriarch Aud the Deep-Minded leading her clan to Iceland.

Medieval England had some more restricted legal rights for women, so they were restricted from many professions - but they can and would still run their own farm, brew beer, or do other simple trades for a living. There were also convents full of single women. A widow running a farm in an unwalled town would not be out of place.

That's really the thing. I wouldn't expect to find anyone living on a remote farm by themselves in pre-Roman Gaul. As far as I understand the archaeology, the norm for iron age settlements is a walled village with farmlands clustered closely around it. That seems to also be the norm for pre-columbian settlements in Eastern North America and any other context where a pre-industrial and non-nomadic people are living under the threat of inter-tribal warfare. A man living alone in a remote farm, even a trained warrior, would still be screwed if taken by surprise by an armed war party.

honeydipperdavid is complaining about Phandalin, though, which isn't pre-Roman Gaul. They have a modern-style tavern, three trading posts, and an inn. He doesn't specify, but the only farm that fits what he is Alderleaf Farm, which is just two hundred feet from the nearest other homes of Phandalin.

There were plenty of non-walled settlements in medieval times, though there were also walled cities and towns. Walls were not rare, but it seems like they were an extra for more warlike areas, and many settlements didn't have them. That's also true in America. Of the Native American sites that I've visited (mostly in the Southwest and California), very few had walls or palisades. The biggest medieval city in North America, Cahokia, eventually had a palisade, but that was built over a century after the city was founded.

Quote from: jhkim on February 29, 2024, 12:06:42 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 28, 2024, 08:58:02 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2024, 04:33:25 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 27, 2024, 01:18:15 AM
And you are not going to a see a single woman farming in Northern Gaul by herself without a community.  She would be raped and enslaved about 30 minutes after a Gaul realized there was a lone woman and easy to capture.  You go to D&D they tend to pull the same kind of oddity with women.  Hell its bad enough when they do it with men, but usually they have some farm hands, I mean maybe they could survive a goblin assault, but the strong single woman farmer all by herself and her 3 kids, OK BOSS.  You can't forget how bad things get the further back in time from a lawlessness perspective.  In medieval europe the laws, punishments and torture was so sever because they had very limited prisons and sheriffs.  They were extreme to make the cost of committing a crime prohibitive, and men still raped, sacked, banditry etc.  And medieval Europe is D&D's setting but rather than rampaging vandals and goths they rampaging ogres and orcs.  Having unwalled towns (Phandalin) is cringe, I have to remake that map.  And in Phandalin the entry level adventure you've got the strong single mother and ther two kids farming.  I do a fair bit of mapping and world building so to me crap like that drives me nutters.

I generally agree with Orphan81, and disagree with honeydipperdavid. During the Viking Age (800-1050), the vikings would live communally in longhouses, so no one would be farming alone, but women had considerable independence. They could own property and do business for themselves. The Laxdaela Saga is about the matriarch Aud the Deep-Minded leading her clan to Iceland.

Medieval England had some more restricted legal rights for women, so they were restricted from many professions - but they can and would still run their own farm, brew beer, or do other simple trades for a living. There were also convents full of single women. A widow running a farm in an unwalled town would not be out of place.

That's really the thing. I wouldn't expect to find anyone living on a remote farm by themselves in pre-Roman Gaul. As far as I understand the archaeology, the norm for iron age settlements is a walled village with farmlands clustered closely around it. That seems to also be the norm for pre-columbian settlements in Eastern North America and any other context where a pre-industrial and non-nomadic people are living under the threat of inter-tribal warfare. A man living alone in a remote farm, even a trained warrior, would still be screwed if taken by surprise by an armed war party.

honeydipperdavid is complaining about Phandalin, though, which isn't pre-Roman Gaul. They have a modern-style tavern, three trading posts, and an inn. He doesn't specify, but the only farm that fits what he is Alderleaf Farm, which is just two hundred feet from the nearest other homes of Phandalin.

There were plenty of non-walled settlements in medieval times, though there were also walled cities and towns. Walls were not rare, but it seems like they were an extra for more warlike areas, and many settlements didn't have them. That's also true in America. Of the Native American sites that I've visited (mostly in the Southwest and California), very few had walls or palisades. The biggest medieval city in North America, Cahokia, eventually had a palisade, but that was built over a century after the city was founded.

How many of those pre-modern IRL places had to deal with Orcs, Goblins, Trolls and many other soundry monsters? Many of which attacked from above or below?

None, so what bearing do they have in a game world?

Quote

That's really the thing. I wouldn't expect to find anyone living on a remote farm by themselves in pre-Roman Gaul. As far as I understand the archaeology, the norm for iron age settlements is a walled village with farmlands clustered closely around it. That seems to also be the norm for pre-columbian settlements in Eastern North America and any other context where a pre-industrial and non-nomadic people are living under the threat of inter-tribal warfare. A man living alone in a remote farm, even a trained warrior, would still be screwed if taken by surprise by an armed war party.

I think it was Tacitus who remarked on the weirdness of the Germans, who preferred to live out of sight of their neighbours. German and Scandinavian steadings could be widely scattered. Clearly Italians were different and lived together in villages. I suspect this was more about soil fertility than neighbourliness though. You got mostly scattered farms in Highland Scotland, mostly villages in lowland Scotland, for the same reason.

Greetings!

Well, women living or traveling alone and risking being killed or enslaved every five minutes in the Middle Ages is hyperbole. However, during the Dark Ages, and in the Middle Ages--and in Ancient periods, it was very dangerous for men or women to live or travel alone. Especially though for women. Bandits in the countryside were in many places a constant danger. In urban areas, even in Roman times, there were gangs of urban ruffians and criminals of all sorts quite literally making up *hordes* within the cities.

And yes, slavers were also ubiquitous, and a very present danger. A danger for men, but even more so for women. Women are easier to enslave, and commanded higher profits for slavers in general than men.

Certainly, while there are some commonalities with our own modern age, and some recognizable attributes of life, the underscoring reality is that the past ages were very different in many ways from our own age, and the smug assumptions embraced by many that women could live and operate back then in such ages in the same comfortable, assuming manner that is commonplace in our own age is ridiculous.

I think that many gamers--and the member here that brought up the weird scene from the module--is reacting to that precise absurdity and dissonance presented in the modern D&D game module.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 29, 2024, 12:10:42 AM


How many of those pre-modern IRL places had to deal with Orcs, Goblins, Trolls and many other soundry monsters? Many of which attacked from above or below?

None, so what bearing do they have in a game world?

This really depends on how dangerous your setting is. Are you doing a complete 'points of light' setting, where a few hundred feet outside of any and all cities is wilderness teaming with monsters?

Cause I see the "Orcs, Goblins and Trolls" as replacements for the real world foreign raiders and bandits for the most part... Meaning there are parts of the Fantasy World that are safer than others just as there were parts of our world less subject to raids than others... And therefore no walls. Just like in our world.

But if every single place outside of a city is full of Monsters than you need to take that into account for the rest of your setting as it begins to look less and less like our world and more like something such as Numenera or Worlds Without Number. In the Real World we had the silk road that spanned two continents, nothing like that could exist if there are not well known areas and roads that are (relatively) safe compared to other places.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 29, 2024, 12:10:42 AM

Quote from: jhkim on February 29, 2024, 12:06:42 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 28, 2024, 08:58:02 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 28, 2024, 04:33:25 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 27, 2024, 01:18:15 AM
And you are not going to a see a single woman farming in Northern Gaul by herself without a community.  She would be raped and enslaved about 30 minutes after a Gaul realized there was a lone woman and easy to capture.  You go to D&D they tend to pull the same kind of oddity with women.  Hell its bad enough when they do it with men, but usually they have some farm hands, I mean maybe they could survive a goblin assault, but the strong single woman farmer all by herself and her 3 kids, OK BOSS.  You can't forget how bad things get the further back in time from a lawlessness perspective.  In medieval europe the laws, punishments and torture was so sever because they had very limited prisons and sheriffs.  They were extreme to make the cost of committing a crime prohibitive, and men still raped, sacked, banditry etc.  And medieval Europe is D&D's setting but rather than rampaging vandals and goths they rampaging ogres and orcs.  Having unwalled towns (Phandalin) is cringe, I have to remake that map.  And in Phandalin the entry level adventure you've got the strong single mother and ther two kids farming.  I do a fair bit of mapping and world building so to me crap like that drives me nutters.

I generally agree with Orphan81, and disagree with honeydipperdavid. During the Viking Age (800-1050), the vikings would live communally in longhouses, so no one would be farming alone, but women had considerable independence. They could own property and do business for themselves. The Laxdaela Saga is about the matriarch Aud the Deep-Minded leading her clan to Iceland.

Medieval England had some more restricted legal rights for women, so they were restricted from many professions - but they can and would still run their own farm, brew beer, or do other simple trades for a living. There were also convents full of single women. A widow running a farm in an unwalled town would not be out of place.

That's really the thing. I wouldn't expect to find anyone living on a remote farm by themselves in pre-Roman Gaul. As far as I understand the archaeology, the norm for iron age settlements is a walled village with farmlands clustered closely around it. That seems to also be the norm for pre-columbian settlements in Eastern North America and any other context where a pre-industrial and non-nomadic people are living under the threat of inter-tribal warfare. A man living alone in a remote farm, even a trained warrior, would still be screwed if taken by surprise by an armed war party.

honeydipperdavid is complaining about Phandalin, though, which isn't pre-Roman Gaul. They have a modern-style tavern, three trading posts, and an inn. He doesn't specify, but the only farm that fits what he is Alderleaf Farm, which is just two hundred feet from the nearest other homes of Phandalin.

There were plenty of non-walled settlements in medieval times, though there were also walled cities and towns. Walls were not rare, but it seems like they were an extra for more warlike areas, and many settlements didn't have them. That's also true in America. Of the Native American sites that I've visited (mostly in the Southwest and California), very few had walls or palisades. The biggest medieval city in North America, Cahokia, eventually had a palisade, but that was built over a century after the city was founded.

How many of those pre-modern IRL places had to deal with Orcs, Goblins, Trolls and many other soundry monsters? Many of which attacked from above or below?

None, so what bearing do they have in a game world?

Greetings!

Very good point, GeekyBugle! Like human bandits, ruffians, and slavers are not bad enough of a concern--which  think that they were a much greater threat than now in modern times--when you add in the fantasy elements of Orcs, Goblins, and Trolls roaming about--yeah, the idea that much anyone--but especially a woman with kids, is out somewhere living on the back 40 is all the more weird and stupid.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon on February 29, 2024, 12:11:02 AM

Quote

That's really the thing. I wouldn't expect to find anyone living on a remote farm by themselves in pre-Roman Gaul. As far as I understand the archaeology, the norm for iron age settlements is a walled village with farmlands clustered closely around it. That seems to also be the norm for pre-columbian settlements in Eastern North America and any other context where a pre-industrial and non-nomadic people are living under the threat of inter-tribal warfare. A man living alone in a remote farm, even a trained warrior, would still be screwed if taken by surprise by an armed war party.

I think it was Tacitus who remarked on the weirdness of the Germans, who preferred to live out of site of their neighbours. German and Scandinavian steadings could be widely scattered. Clearly Italians were different and lived together in villages. I suspect this was more about soil fertility than neighbourliness though. You got mostly scattered farms in Highland Scotland, mostly villages in lowland Scotland, for the same reason.

Greetings!

Very interesting, S'mon! It's fascinating how geography and climate shapes and influences social structure and lifestyles. As you mentioned, the differences between Highland Scotland and the Lowland Scotland makes very clear.

I love that!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 29, 2024, 12:14:03 AM
I think that many gamers--and the member here that brought up the weird scene from the module--is reacting to that precise absurdity and dissonance presented in the modern D&D game module.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here. The original mention was about a single woman farmer in Phandalin, which seems to be Qelline of Alderleaf Farm. Here's the entry from the module:

QuoteAlderleaf Farm

A wise female halfling of forty-five, Qelline Alderleaf is a pragmatic farmer who seems to know everything that goes on in town. She is a kind host, and is willing to let the characters stay in her hayloft if they don't want to stay at the Stonehill Inn.

Carp's Story. Qelline's son, Carp Alderleaf, is a spirited and precocious halfling lad of ten years. He is enchanted by the idea of being an adventurer and says that he was playing in the woods near Tresendar Manor when he found a secret tunnel in a thicket.
A couple of "big ugly bandits" came out of the tunnel when he was there, and met with a pair of The Redbrands. They didn't see him, but it was close. Carp thinks that the bandits have a secret lair under the old manor house. He can take the characters to the tunnel or provide them with directions to the location. The tunnel leads to area 8 in the Redbrand hideout.

Quest: Reidoth the Druid. Qelline is a longtime friend of a druid named Reidoth . If she figures out that the characters are looking for specific sites in the area, such as Cragmaw Castle or Wave Echo Cave, she suggests that they visit Reidoth and ask for his help, "since there's not an inch of the land he doesn't know." She tells the characters that Reidoth recently set out for the ruins of a town called Thundertree, just west of the Neverwinter Wood. The ruins are about fifty miles northwest of Phandalin, and she provides directions so the characters can easily find the place. If the party pursues this quest, see Reidotth the Druid Quest or "Ruins of Thundertree".

On the map, the farm is at the edge of town, but the house is no more separated than any of the other houses.

IMCs when you meet a woman living alone in the forest, you know she's a witch. 

Quote from: S'mon on February 29, 2024, 02:46:50 AM
IMCs when you meet a woman living alone in the forest, you know she's a witch. 

Adventurer: "Good day m'lady, what do they call you?"

Woman living in the forest: "My name is Blair."

Adventurer: