In case someone doesn't know where I stand I despise the grey gruel most settings have become in recent years.

That said, if that's what floats your boat no hard feelings, just don't sling istophobes, nazi, etc libel against those who don't like it.

On the other hand 100% Period "Authentic" settings aren't really MY cup of tea either, I like SOME Fantasy/Fiction/etc in my ElfGames thank you very much. What do I mean?

Let's take Pulp as an example, but first we need to define it:

IMHO Pulp isn't a time period or genre, it is a style with larger than life Heroes (and Heroines), with Low Fantasy, High Adventure, Super Science, Weird Science, Cosmic Horror, Black & White morality, Manly Men and Femenine Women (the old fashioned type without dicks).

Now, when the Pulps were being published there was a lot of isms around, yes, and if that's what you want in your setting/games more power to you, even if what you want is for the Heroes to be Istophobic, no skin of my teeth.

IN MY Pulp Settings/Games, Racismus, Sexismus & Istophobismus are the exclusive province of the Villains and maybe the NPCs in certain parts of the world, of course I don't limit my Istophobes to being ONLY white or hating on "Teh Diversity TM". So Fu-Manchu hates westerners and thinks ANYONE not a Han Chinese inferior, got a problem with that? My table isn't for you.

NOW, having a Woman, Non-White PC provides for lots of interesting conflicts and RP. Why would I limit my self or my players simply because BACK THEN women were in the kitchen making samwhiches and Non-Whites and Whites didn't mix together?

It's not the "Real World TM" I'm trying to emulate, but a Pulp world that just happens to look a lote like the real one.

And yes, there were Heroines beyond the Femme Fatale trope:

1936 Domino Lady
1937 Sheena
1944ish Señorita Scorpion
1937 Gerry Carlyle, Interplanetary Huntress
Red Sonja

And others.

Thoughts?

Sounds fun and what drew me (and my gaming group) into Spirit of the Century before Evil Hat painted everything with an agenda.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2024, 04:16:53 PM
In case someone doesn't know where I stand I despise the grey gruel most settings have become in recent years.

That said, if that's what floats your boat no hard feelings, just don't sling istophobes, nazi, etc libel against those who don't like it.

On the other hand 100% Period "Authentic" settings aren't really MY cup of tea either, I like SOME Fantasy/Fiction/etc in my ElfGames thank you very much. What do I mean?

Let's take Pulp as an example, but first we need to define it:

IMHO Pulp isn't a time period or genre, it is a style with larger than life Heroes (and Heroines), with Low Fantasy, High Adventure, Super Science, Weird Science, Cosmic Horror, Black & White morality, Manly Men and Femenine Women (the old fashioned type without dicks).

Now, when the Pulps were being published there was a lot of isms around, yes, and if that's what you want in your setting/games more power to you, even if what you want is for the Heroes to be Istophobic, no skin of my teeth.

IN MY Pulp Settings/Games, Racismus, Sexismus & Istophobismus are the exclusive province of the Villains and maybe the NPCs in certain parts of the world, of course I don't limit my Istophobes to being ONLY white or hating on "Teh Diversity TM". So Fu-Manchu hates westerners and thinks ANYONE not a Han Chinese inferior, got a problem with that? My table isn't for you.

NOW, having a Woman, Non-White PC provides for lots of interesting conflicts and RP. Why would I limit my self or my players simply because BACK THEN women were in the kitchen making samwhiches and Non-Whites and Whites didn't mix together?

It's not the "Real World TM" I'm trying to emulate, but a Pulp world that just happens to look a lote like the real one.

And yes, there were Heroines beyond the Femme Fatale trope:

1936 Domino Lady
1937 Sheena
1944ish Señorita Scorpion
1937 Gerry Carlyle, Interplanetary Huntress
Red Sonja

And others.

Thoughts?

It reminds me of what was considered "Liberal" back in the 90s and the 00s when it comes to settings, particularly when dealing with things we all recognized as being historically part of Humanity but also universally bad. The goal wasn't to completely and totally act like it never existed, as taking away all forms of prejudice in a setting make it feel less 'real' to us. But it also wasn't there to make players of any stripe (particularly minority players) have to deal abuse in the name of "Realism."

To use historical Pulp as an example, we recognize the 1920s were full of isms like you mentioned, but we don't pile it on in play... Even when recognizing it's there. It more becomes an attribute in that black and white morality of a pulp feel... Not only are these corrupt cops on the take with the Mob, they're all RACISTS cops abusing their power in Black Harlem too! This doesn't mean we start dropping the N word at the table, but it might also be fun for a black PC (IN real life or the character they're playing) to get to beat up the Corrupt Racist Cops and bring them to justice along side of the *Good* Cops and bring relief to the disenfranchised neighborhood.

At the same time, if players don't want to deal with that sort of thing, the Pulp world is big enough they can... as you mentioned, go fight Fu Man Chu in China and ignore western prejudice that existed at the time completely while Fu man Chu looks down on all of them anyway.

In another example say a Fantasy setting that is trying to hew itself more towards historical realism as opposed to current day Forgotten Realms, we can say Woman adventurers are rarer than male Adventurers, particularly if magic is lower in this setting... but not completely and totally unheard of. Without any kind of widespread contraceptives in such a setting, having female soldiers fighting alongside of male soldiers and women adventurers in the exact same number as male ones just doesn't make sense. But also in such a setting, the few female Adventurers would stand out more and be more noteworthy because of such a thing.

The goal is to strike a balance between what makes the setting feel more real while also not making players have to experience any overt prejudice in game, unless they *WANT* to as part of roleplay and the story.

There are a lot of game genres where you can ignore racism and prejudice completely too, and in the end you might have a table of players that doesn't want to engage with any real world negativity. I do think it goes down to how much you want to hew to something being "realistic"... Racism and Prejudice are "Realistic" because they existed so long among humans (and still do) it could be a manner of substituting Fantasy Racism though to keep it away from any real world harm while also making the setting have a feeling of 'reality' to it.... Whether it be Elves and Dwarves not getting along, or Bioengineered Human 2.0's looking down on unAgumented humans.

It's a complicated situation that ultimately boils down to "Know your players and plan accordingly."

Quote from: zircher on February 25, 2024, 04:35:57 PM
Sounds fun and what drew me (and my gaming group) into Spirit of the Century before Evil Hat painted everything with an agenda.

It is fun, lots of fun.

Quote from: Orphan81 on February 25, 2024, 05:02:33 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2024, 04:16:53 PM
In case someone doesn't know where I stand I despise the grey gruel most settings have become in recent years.

That said, if that's what floats your boat no hard feelings, just don't sling istophobes, nazi, etc libel against those who don't like it.

On the other hand 100% Period "Authentic" settings aren't really MY cup of tea either, I like SOME Fantasy/Fiction/etc in my ElfGames thank you very much. What do I mean?

Let's take Pulp as an example, but first we need to define it:

IMHO Pulp isn't a time period or genre, it is a style with larger than life Heroes (and Heroines), with Low Fantasy, High Adventure, Super Science, Weird Science, Cosmic Horror, Black & White morality, Manly Men and Femenine Women (the old fashioned type without dicks).

Now, when the Pulps were being published there was a lot of isms around, yes, and if that's what you want in your setting/games more power to you, even if what you want is for the Heroes to be Istophobic, no skin of my teeth.

IN MY Pulp Settings/Games, Racismus, Sexismus & Istophobismus are the exclusive province of the Villains and maybe the NPCs in certain parts of the world, of course I don't limit my Istophobes to being ONLY white or hating on "Teh Diversity TM". So Fu-Manchu hates westerners and thinks ANYONE not a Han Chinese inferior, got a problem with that? My table isn't for you.

NOW, having a Woman, Non-White PC provides for lots of interesting conflicts and RP. Why would I limit my self or my players simply because BACK THEN women were in the kitchen making samwhiches and Non-Whites and Whites didn't mix together?

It's not the "Real World TM" I'm trying to emulate, but a Pulp world that just happens to look a lote like the real one.

And yes, there were Heroines beyond the Femme Fatale trope:

1936 Domino Lady
1937 Sheena
1944ish Señorita Scorpion
1937 Gerry Carlyle, Interplanetary Huntress
Red Sonja

And others.

Thoughts?

It reminds me of what was considered "Liberal" back in the 90s and the 00s when it comes to settings, particularly when dealing with things we all recognized as being historically part of Humanity but also universally bad. The goal wasn't to completely and totally act like it never existed, as taking away all forms of prejudice in a setting make it feel less 'real' to us. But it also wasn't there to make players of any stripe (particularly minority players) have to deal abuse in the name of "Realism."

To use historical Pulp as an example, we recognize the 1920s were full of isms like you mentioned, but we don't pile it on in play... Even when recognizing it's there. It more becomes an attribute in that black and white morality of a pulp feel... Not only are these corrupt cops on the take with the Mob, they're all RACISTS cops abusing their power in Black Harlem too! This doesn't mean we start dropping the N word at the table, but it might also be fun for a black PC (IN real life or the character they're playing) to get to beat up the Corrupt Racist Cops and bring them to justice along side of the *Good* Cops and bring relief to the disenfranchised neighborhood.

At the same time, if players don't want to deal with that sort of thing, the Pulp world is big enough they can... as you mentioned, go fight Fu Man Chu in China and ignore western prejudice that existed at the time completely while Fu man Chu looks down on all of them anyway.

In another example say a Fantasy setting that is trying to hew itself more towards historical realism as opposed to current day Forgotten Realms, we can say Woman adventurers are rarer than male Adventurers, particularly if magic is lower in this setting... but not completely and totally unheard of. Without any kind of widespread contraceptives in such a setting, having female soldiers fighting alongside of male soldiers and women adventurers in the exact same number as male ones just doesn't make sense. But also in such a setting, the few female Adventurers would stand out more and be more noteworthy because of such a thing.

The goal is to strike a balance between what makes the setting feel more real while also not making players have to experience any overt prejudice in game, unless they *WANT* to as part of roleplay and the story.

There are a lot of game genres where you can ignore racism and prejudice completely too, and in the end you might have a table of players that doesn't want to engage with any real world negativity. I do think it goes down to how much you want to hew to something being "realistic"... Racism and Prejudice are "Realistic" because they existed so long among humans (and still do) it could be a manner of substituting Fantasy Racism though to keep it away from any real world harm while also making the setting have a feeling of 'reality' to it.... Whether it be Elves and Dwarves not getting along, or Bioengineered Human 2.0's looking down on unAgumented humans.

It's a complicated situation that ultimately boils down to "Know your players and plan accordingly."

Indeed but Pulp doesn't NEED to take place in the 1920s, it can take place in "The Future as it never was", say 1945 onwards with flying cars, rocketships and aliens, plenty of opportunity to deal with prejudiceagainst the Blue Skins and for humanity to join in their hatred for the Martians from War of the Worlds.

Now, a humanity with exactly ZERO isms? That's TOO fantastic, even if all humans end up having the same shade of brownish skin with indeterminate facial feautures we'll find a way to hate on each other:

Earthers vs Belters (those born in the asteroid belt) vs Jovians, etc.

Maybe those corrupt police officers work for the Black Organized Crime? Maybe they beat blacks because their black masters tell them to?

Maybe the Government, police, elites, etc are trhe things from "They Live"? Maybe they stoke racial hatred to keep us divided and weak?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2024, 05:59:06 PM

Quote from: Orphan81 on February 25, 2024, 05:02:33 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 25, 2024, 04:16:53 PM
In case someone doesn't know where I stand I despise the grey gruel most settings have become in recent years.

That said, if that's what floats your boat no hard feelings, just don't sling istophobes, nazi, etc libel against those who don't like it.

On the other hand 100% Period "Authentic" settings aren't really MY cup of tea either, I like SOME Fantasy/Fiction/etc in my ElfGames thank you very much. What do I mean?

Let's take Pulp as an example, but first we need to define it:

IMHO Pulp isn't a time period or genre, it is a style with larger than life Heroes (and Heroines), with Low Fantasy, High Adventure, Super Science, Weird Science, Cosmic Horror, Black & White morality, Manly Men and Femenine Women (the old fashioned type without dicks).

Now, when the Pulps were being published there was a lot of isms around, yes, and if that's what you want in your setting/games more power to you, even if what you want is for the Heroes to be Istophobic, no skin of my teeth.

IN MY Pulp Settings/Games, Racismus, Sexismus & Istophobismus are the exclusive province of the Villains and maybe the NPCs in certain parts of the world, of course I don't limit my Istophobes to being ONLY white or hating on "Teh Diversity TM". So Fu-Manchu hates westerners and thinks ANYONE not a Han Chinese inferior, got a problem with that? My table isn't for you.

NOW, having a Woman, Non-White PC provides for lots of interesting conflicts and RP. Why would I limit my self or my players simply because BACK THEN women were in the kitchen making samwhiches and Non-Whites and Whites didn't mix together?

It's not the "Real World TM" I'm trying to emulate, but a Pulp world that just happens to look a lote like the real one.

And yes, there were Heroines beyond the Femme Fatale trope:

1936 Domino Lady
1937 Sheena
1944ish Señorita Scorpion
1937 Gerry Carlyle, Interplanetary Huntress
Red Sonja

And others.

Thoughts?

It reminds me of what was considered "Liberal" back in the 90s and the 00s when it comes to settings, particularly when dealing with things we all recognized as being historically part of Humanity but also universally bad. The goal wasn't to completely and totally act like it never existed, as taking away all forms of prejudice in a setting make it feel less 'real' to us. But it also wasn't there to make players of any stripe (particularly minority players) have to deal abuse in the name of "Realism."

To use historical Pulp as an example, we recognize the 1920s were full of isms like you mentioned, but we don't pile it on in play... Even when recognizing it's there. It more becomes an attribute in that black and white morality of a pulp feel... Not only are these corrupt cops on the take with the Mob, they're all RACISTS cops abusing their power in Black Harlem too! This doesn't mean we start dropping the N word at the table, but it might also be fun for a black PC (IN real life or the character they're playing) to get to beat up the Corrupt Racist Cops and bring them to justice along side of the *Good* Cops and bring relief to the disenfranchised neighborhood.

At the same time, if players don't want to deal with that sort of thing, the Pulp world is big enough they can... as you mentioned, go fight Fu Man Chu in China and ignore western prejudice that existed at the time completely while Fu man Chu looks down on all of them anyway.

In another example say a Fantasy setting that is trying to hew itself more towards historical realism as opposed to current day Forgotten Realms, we can say Woman adventurers are rarer than male Adventurers, particularly if magic is lower in this setting... but not completely and totally unheard of. Without any kind of widespread contraceptives in such a setting, having female soldiers fighting alongside of male soldiers and women adventurers in the exact same number as male ones just doesn't make sense. But also in such a setting, the few female Adventurers would stand out more and be more noteworthy because of such a thing.

The goal is to strike a balance between what makes the setting feel more real while also not making players have to experience any overt prejudice in game, unless they *WANT* to as part of roleplay and the story.

There are a lot of game genres where you can ignore racism and prejudice completely too, and in the end you might have a table of players that doesn't want to engage with any real world negativity. I do think it goes down to how much you want to hew to something being "realistic"... Racism and Prejudice are "Realistic" because they existed so long among humans (and still do) it could be a manner of substituting Fantasy Racism though to keep it away from any real world harm while also making the setting have a feeling of 'reality' to it.... Whether it be Elves and Dwarves not getting along, or Bioengineered Human 2.0's looking down on unAgumented humans.

It's a complicated situation that ultimately boils down to "Know your players and plan accordingly."

Indeed but Pulp doesn't NEED to take place in the 1920s, it can take place in "The Future as it never was", say 1945 onwards with flying cars, rocketships and aliens, plenty of opportunity to deal with prejudiceagainst the Blue Skins and for humanity to join in their hatred for the Martians from War of the Worlds.

Now, a humanity with exactly ZERO isms? That's TOO fantastic, even if all humans end up having the same shade of brownish skin with indeterminate facial feautures we'll find a way to hate on each other:

Earthers vs Belters (those born in the asteroid belt) vs Jovians, etc.

Maybe those corrupt police officers work for the Black Organized Crime? Maybe they beat blacks because their black masters tell them to?

Maybe the Government, police, elites, etc are trhe things from "They Live"? Maybe they stoke racial hatred to keep us divided and weak?

Fallout's 1950s retro-future setting can certainly be played as pulp. When it comes to -isms, the ghouls are on the bad side of it, even the non-feral ones that can be completely civil.

I enjoy reading Moonstone Books comics about Honey West, Domino Lady, Sheena, et al.  Just sharing another tangential hobby of mine. I like comic pulps and horror pulps.

The term 'period appropriate' doesn't have much meaning in a fantasy setting. As a made up world anything goes. Humans love to fight each other for a variety of reasons, but how much would they quibble over skin color in a world populated with evil sentient races such as orcs, hobgoblins, and lizard men that regard humans as something tasty? I think that in a world with threats like these, and worse, that humans would band together and put aside petty squables at least until the threat was taken care of. Then again it is easy to imagine some humans allying themselves with such creatures to attain their ambitions.

The role of women can easily vary from culture to culture. Religious beliefs and traditions can shape these roles in different ways. Likewise some cultures will embrace slavery and others will rail against it. A world with the same vanilla culture everywhere would be pretty boring to play in.

It's funny. It seems I just as often come up against people running too far in the opposite direction. "It's the dark ages, so everyone is literally covered in shit and the world exists in a constant state of rape and pillage." "It's the 20s, so everyone is racist and women can't have jobs." "It's ancient times, so every NPC will try to enslave you."

I've seen this both from right-leaning people overcorrecting and from lefties terrified of playing in historical settings because they assume it's going to be like that. One of the things I always try and bring across in any setting I GM is that no matter what the tech level or social structure is, people are still people. Even a medieval peasant is likely to be a reasonably intelligent person who knows his trade, takes pride in his appearance, loves his wife, and would prefer not to find himself in a fight to the death.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 25, 2024, 10:19:48 PM
The term 'period appropriate' doesn't have much meaning in a fantasy setting. As a made up world anything goes. Humans love to fight each other for a variety of reasons, but how much would they quibble over skin color in a world populated with evil sentient races such as orcs, hobgoblins, and lizard men that regard humans as something tasty? I think that in a world with threats like these, and worse, that humans would band together and put aside petty squables at least until the threat was taken care of. Then again it is easy to imagine some humans allying themselves with such creatures to attain their ambitions.

"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because—what with trolls and dwarfs and so on—speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."
--Terry Pratchett: "Witches Abroad"

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 25, 2024, 10:23:42 PM"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because—what with trolls and dwarfs and so on—speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."
--Terry Pratchett: "Witches Abroad"

I always say that we will end racism the day we encounter hostile aliens. Because Apes are hardwired to fear and fight 'the other.' Once we have something very different to ourselves, we'll form ranks and racism will disappear like mist in the morning sun.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 25, 2024, 10:39:10 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 25, 2024, 10:23:42 PM"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because—what with trolls and dwarfs and so on—speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."
--Terry Pratchett: "Witches Abroad"

I always say that we will end racism the day we encounter hostile aliens. Because Apes are hardwired to fear and fight 'the other.' Once we have something very different to ourselves, we'll form ranks and racism will disappear like mist in the morning sun.

My dude, what makes you think they need to be hostile? They just need to be different enough as to not be able to pass as human.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 25, 2024, 10:19:48 PM
The term 'period appropriate' doesn't have much meaning in a fantasy setting. As a made up world anything goes. Humans love to fight each other for a variety of reasons, but how much would they quibble over skin color in a world populated with evil sentient races such as orcs, hobgoblins, and lizard men that regard humans as something tasty? I think that in a world with threats like these, and worse, that humans would band together and put aside petty squables at least until the threat was taken care of. Then again it is easy to imagine some humans allying themselves with such creatures to attain their ambitions.

The role of women can easily vary from culture to culture. Religious beliefs and traditions can shape these roles in different ways. Likewise some cultures will embrace slavery and others will rail against it. A world with the same vanilla culture everywhere would be pretty boring to play in.

If that's what floats your boat more power to you. Me? I like internal consistency from my worlds, so no, not everything and anything goes "because Dragons".

If I'm building a world to play Arthurian myths then sorry not sorry but everybody is of European descent or so close to it as to make no difference.

On the other hand if teleportation is a thing a la Ringworld, then it makes sense for people of every color to be everywhere, and if it's far enough into the future then sorry not sorry but everybody is about the same color with ethnically ambiguous facial features.

What makes sense in one world doesn't neccesarily make sense in the other.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 25, 2024, 10:23:42 PM
It's funny. It seems I just as often come up against people running too far in the opposite direction. "It's the dark ages, so everyone is literally covered in shit and the world exists in a constant state of rape and pillage." "It's the 20s, so everyone is racist and women can't have jobs." "It's ancient times, so every NPC will try to enslave you."

I've seen this both from right-leaning people overcorrecting and from lefties terrified of playing in historical settings because they assume it's going to be like that. One of the things I always try and bring across in any setting I GM is that no matter what the tech level or social structure is, people are still people. Even a medieval peasant is likely to be a reasonably intelligent person who knows his trade, takes pride in his appearance, loves his wife, and would prefer not to find himself in a fight to the death.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on February 25, 2024, 10:19:48 PM
The term 'period appropriate' doesn't have much meaning in a fantasy setting. As a made up world anything goes. Humans love to fight each other for a variety of reasons, but how much would they quibble over skin color in a world populated with evil sentient races such as orcs, hobgoblins, and lizard men that regard humans as something tasty? I think that in a world with threats like these, and worse, that humans would band together and put aside petty squables at least until the threat was taken care of. Then again it is easy to imagine some humans allying themselves with such creatures to attain their ambitions.

"Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because—what with trolls and dwarfs and so on—speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."
--Terry Pratchett: "Witches Abroad"

I'm pretty sure women held jobs long before the 20th century, it wasn't so common but also not so rare people would not know this historic fact. It was just a matter of the type of jobs, because men are dispossable and women aren't so coal minning was a male job.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 26, 2024, 12:02:54 AMMy dude, what makes you think they need to be hostile? They just need to be different enough as to not be able to pass as human.

That would just add a different other.

Even if friendly aliens settled Earth in huge numbers, only some of the population would see them as an existential threat, much like the current split regarding unlimited immigration.

What we want is a nice Inter-System Cold War with a weird and hostile species that are around our strength. Too strong and they wipe us, too weak and we defeat and absorb them.

Greetings!

"WOMEN DIDN'T WORK BACK THEN!" Or, "WOMEN WERE NOT ALLOWED TO WORK BACK THEN!"

What fucking morons believe these ideas are true?

WOMEN have always worked various kinds of jobs, throughout history, EVERYWHERE.

For example, in Ancient Rome, normal, ordinary Roman women worked in the farms, worked as shepherd girls, they did laundry, cooked, worked as servants and waitresses, as well as dancers, musicians, and whores.

In the city of Rome, they also worked in Roman fast food restaurants, much like many modern women work in restaurants or as baristas at Starbucks. Roman women also worked in the many bathhouses, and also in hotels, inns, and bars--just like many women nowadays. Roman women also worked in different businesses and shops, crafting widgets. Sewing, tailoring, making clothes, bedding, utensils, and so on.

Roman women also loved working at the gladiator arenas, selling food, drinks, snacks--and of course, themselves as well.

There were a rare few women also involved in the upper echelons of business on occasion, working as consultants, interpreters, and that kind of thing.

Anyhow, the idea that "Women didn't work back then!" and similar pronouncements are just asinine, and full of jello. Either grossly ignorant and uneducated, or mouthing BS propaganda they have been spoon fed by Feminists in college.

Oh, yeah. And another reference--during the time of Moses, as he was wandering in the wilderness in exile from Egypt, he met his soon-to-be wife near a watering hole, tending to her flock of sheep. She was working hard, as she always did apparently, as a shepherd. Being a shepherd was a common job for many rural people, both men and women alike.

It is interesting how centuries later, far away in Rome, throughout Italia, there were Roman girls working as shepherds. Being a shepherd was an honourable profession, especially for rural people. There was different dynamics and status-symbols amongst rural and urban people back then--again, echoing to some of the dissonance and friction between rural and urban populations everywhere, even in our current day.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK