Quote from: Omega;824341Except that removing the chance a cat might off you is itself unrealistic. A normal rat can kill a human being if it finds the right spot. And we ARE talking here about D&D critters which are not normal terran animals in any way shape or form.

Even better. The fact the cat killed a character can become an adventure hook all by itself. Was the cat a familliar? Whos then? Was it a curse? Supernatural? Godly? Was it really a cat at all? It sure seemed to know exactly where to strike? (This all assumes the cat actually hit in two rounds to do the deed of course.)

And so the "Cat Got His Tongue" mystery begins.:cool:

Quote from: Opaopajr;824462Most cats don't frenzy on humans slipping into shock, in our real world experience. But if they did, an unconscious, prone human dying from shock shouldn't be too hard to tip over the edge. System Shock is a very fragile state; it's remarkable how easily living things can die from it.

I may have misinterpreted what OP said regarding this, but I don't think it's the cat itself that's the issue, but the game feeling of  dying or going unconscious from a literal scratch or something that only does 1 HP of damage.

I'm more convinced now that the simplest way to deal with that is to not describe low damage stuff that takes a character out as something on the level of a scratch, or to use another metaphor, a single paper cut. Anything that takes you out needs to be described as something truly lethal-- maybe a papercut to a major artery...still ridiculous, but less so.

Quote from: Omnifray;824587Only a TPK is a win for the monsters

No, only achieving the monsters' objectives is a win for the monsters.  Their objectives may or may not require a TPK.  They may even place an unconscious character at greater risk than one who is injured, but still fighting.  e.g., If the monsters' objective is to obtain a meal of fresh meat, they may knock out one character, then attempt to disengage and drag the body away for dinner while doing their best to avoid further combat.

You seem to be making an appeal to realism as the reason that an unconscious PC would be safe while neglecting the detail that "kill everything!" as the only win condition is itself rather unrealistic.

Quote from: Omnifray;824587By falling unconscious you gain a level of safety because rational monsters (as opposed to skeletons or zombies I suppose) will rarely attack you (unless it's TPK territory or they are too far away from everyone else to influence what's left of the fight, and/or planning to escape, and/or the monsters realise/believe that you are likely to get massively healed).

I would argue that rational monsters are most likely to behave in exactly the same way as PCs, as players are generally pretty damn good at assessing the behaviors which will ensure their characters' continued survival.

So, what would your players do if an orc went down and they knew that there was an orc shaman on the field with healing abilities?  I don't know about your players, but mine would slit that orc's throat before it had a chance to get back up, even if that meant giving up an attack on one of the other orcs who's still up.  And then they would to their damnedest to take out the shaman and remove the orcs' in-combat healing capacity so that they wouldn't have to worry any more about unconscious orcs waking back up.

Quote from: nDervish;824844No, only achieving the monsters' objectives is a win for the monsters.  Their objectives may or may not require a TPK.  They may even place an unconscious character at greater risk than one who is injured, but still fighting.  e.g., If the monsters' objective is to obtain a meal of fresh meat, they may knock out one character, then attempt to disengage and drag the body away for dinner while doing their best to avoid further combat.

You seem to be making an appeal to realism as the reason that an unconscious PC would be safe while neglecting the detail that "kill everything!" as the only win condition is itself rather unrealistic.

What I meant is that in most situations of outright hostility, if the monsters do not kill the entire party, then the party will kill the monsters. If memory serves I did mention the possibility of escape, but frequently it's not realistic - especially in close confines. If the monsters wish to escape and can, then (especially after the fight starts to go wrong for them) why are they fighting at all? Sure, some might want a fresh meal, but that's a very particular category of monsters.

Quote from: nDervish;824844I would argue that rational monsters are most likely to behave in exactly the same way as PCs, as players are generally pretty damn good at assessing the behaviors which will ensure their characters' continued survival.

So, what would your players do if an orc went down and they knew that there was an orc shaman on the field with healing abilities?  I don't know about your players, but mine would slit that orc's throat before it had a chance to get back up, even if that meant giving up an attack on one of the other orcs who's still up.  And then they would to their damnedest to take out the shaman and remove the orcs' in-combat healing capacity so that they wouldn't have to worry any more about unconscious orcs waking back up.

But what if the PCs' healing capabilities are exceptional and the monsters are unaware of them? After all if monsters frequently had healing capabilities on a par with D&D PCs, some fights would go on for a very long time... And if monsters don't have those capabilities themselves, they may well not expect them in PCs.

Guys, that's setting. And most of it is further resolved by morale values.

As for monsters, I assume they are intimately aware of their own world. Especially so for a race like orcs who routinely make their living by raiding other sentient beings over generations. Those who survive likely have stories on how to succeed.

Yes, that means they're focus firing on your healer to kill them outright first (& arcane casters are immediately next). Unless there's some sort of 'rules of engagement' detente about medics, why should it be any different from PCs? And again we get back to setting...

ALWAYS PROTECT THE CLERIC, that seems to help allot!

I gotta admit, I've read the entire thread through and am not seeing the issue (popping up and down) as any more or less realistic than any fix....if you're unhappy with the up/down effect of dropping to zero HP in 5E I suggest that the fix which works best is to retain negative HP....let a spell heal from negative instead of zero, and let it stabilize when it does.

On the cat vs. dragon, I will point out that a 25 HP wizard who gets hit by a dragon probably drops in one round, and is dead in 1-2 more. He's gonna need to get hit by at least 13 cats in one round that all do max damage to drop, and if I got hit by 3 cats that clawed the hell out of me it might be a different sort of wound (13 tiny eviscerating claws vs one big claw) but it would still have the "death by a thousand paper cuts" effect. Meanwhile, his 6 HP wizard apprentice will be instantly killed by a 26 point claw from the dragon, but it will still take at least 3 cats two rounds (12 seconds) to kill him. From my perspective, that sort of hammers home the importance of thinking about D&D combat in realistic terms (or more accurately why not to do so).

But 5E is really clear that hit points are not a hard metric of actual injury....and no one's dead until they've failed three death saves.....so I think the narrative balance here is not to base the narrative off of the mechanical status until it's actually obvious. Example: a guy at zero HP making his death save is on the ground unconscious/unable to act. But he's one healing spell away from recovering. The real problem here isn't his physical status (that's fine)...it's the healing spell, which is actually the unbelievable part. Being fantasy and all that we suspend disbelief on that, but not on the idea that there's a zero HP condition where an adventurer is either dead or fine conditional to a helping hand from a magical spell? Am I missing something?

In any case, I generally don't think of the adventurers as "dragging along with their guts hanging out" until they've also spent all their hit dice, too.

Quote from: camazotz;824905I gotta admit, I've read the entire thread through and am not seeing the issue (popping up and down) as any more or less realistic than any fix....if you're unhappy with the up/down effect of dropping to zero HP in 5E I suggest that the fix which works best is to retain negative HP....let a spell heal from negative instead of zero, and let it stabilize when it does.

I appreciate this, and I agree that it works as far as improving believability.

However, it still misses my point about keeping PCs involved. Given lots of problems with this, I suppose this is a failure of communication on my part. I think I'll drop this thread and maybe rephrase the issue at some later time.

FWIW, this ninja fight from the 80's seems to have been choreographed using the 5E engine. You can see the ninja go down and pop right back up as if healed by a cleric.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pBMZkk1OCyw#t=389

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;825190FWIW, this ninja fight from the 80's seems to have been choreographed using the 5E engine. You can see the ninja go down and pop right back up as if healed by a cleric.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pBMZkk1OCyw#t=389

That is an example of having tons of HP.
Before that shootout he stops a sword slash... with his arm! This is the one with the undead body possessing revenant ninja. Reality checked out before the movie started.

Quote from: jhkim;825157I appreciate this, and I agree that it works as far as improving believability.

However, it still misses my point about keeping PCs involved. Given lots of problems with this, I suppose this is a failure of communication on my part. I think I'll drop this thread and maybe rephrase the issue at some later time.

I feel you would really have to stretch outside the "physical world of make-believe" to have a combat system that emulates combat AND allows "taken out" players to continue to participate.

I wonder - what is wrong with being taken out of the fight? Why wouldn't you just listen and experience the fight?

Trying to tweak the traditional D&D RPG experience to accommodate say a Euro-board game cooperative style would require you to redefine the basic premise. So instead of a group of "classic" adventurers you might be;

• A group of fantastical defenders summoned by a protector wizard. When one goes down, they just summon another.
• Members of a crew piloting a robot/mecha/fantasy construct. If a "Station" is rendered inoperable, you can move to another.
• Creatures infected with a parasite. You always keep various creatures around in a "hypnotized" state. When one body goes down you get into another.

Quote from: trechriron;825218So instead of a group of "classic" adventurers you might be;

• Clones.

   Trust the Computer.

The Computer is your friend.

I'd say that one way to handle this would be by a cushioning effect; have a range where you're out cold, and another where you're dying.