Hmm... I ran a Cthulutech game for about five sessions when it first came out. The damn dice mechanic was awkward in play, hard to explain to players.

Though honestly I don't think that is what killed the game. My players were fairly mixed, and I don't think anyone really bought into the premise much. I did figure out quickly that mixing Taggers with ordinary people was a bad move. Maybe taggers plus power armor would work, but then you have to figure out how to balance a guy who transforms into power armor whenever he wants with a guy who has to carry a five ton suit of armor whereever he goes...

Didn't use the mechs at all, and I have to wonder how well you can balance traditional mechs with Engels. While I'm not entirely sure Taggers are superior to power armor (mini-mechs) straight up, clearly the Engels are superior to the mechs they share a scale with, RP drawbacks aside.

Quote from: Nexus;804232If its not taking the thread too much off topic, does the CTech setting have room for non mecha based campaigns?

Yes. The three main default styles of play are NEG Mecha, Elder Society Tagers and everything else. The first has the focus on mecha and includes a subfocus of Engels (powerful occult biomecha). The later two don't include mecha.

The last includes a range of character types, including sorcerers, parapsychics, powered armour pilots (as distinct from mecha) and a vast arrange of skilled individuals. My best game of CTech was an OIS police investigation campaign falling in this category, in which I played a highly skilled tech monkey. We never had Tagers or Mecha, and the other PCs consisted of the PC types I mentioned.

Of my four demo scenarios, mecha arent integral to either To Kill A Lie (Tagers) or Lambs of a Nameless God (parapsychics).

I keep seeing people say the 3 "core" modes of play can't mix.  I played in a C-Tech game that lasted for almost 2 years and our group consisted of a tagger, a parapsychic, 3 mech pilots, 2 engle pilots and a few regular joe types.  The GM bent the setting to accommodate it all, but mechanics-wise we were fine.

The pilots didn't always have their mechs or engles, but thanks to the way the system works they were still more than competent without them.  When the shit did hit the fan we had different levels of battle going on at the same time.  

For example, we raided a Deep One facility with our engles giving cover fire and keeping a scorpion mech busy while our mechs took on some of the smaller threats like the power armored cultists and the couple of mecha they had.  The whole time the parapsychic and the regular soldiers went building to building freeing people and eventually disarming a bomb.  Oh, and the tagger eventually broke off from the search and rescue group to engage a leviathan mech that came ashore.

Not everything was that grand of a battle, but like I said, even out of our mechs and engles, we were still competent soldiers so it never felt like we were suffering or forced to see every problem as a nail in need of hammering.

Quote from: rgalex;806907...

Not everything was that grand of a battle, but like I said, even out of our mechs and engles, we were still competent soldiers so it never felt like we were suffering or forced to see every problem as a nail in need of hammering.

Awesome. Sauce.  Sounds like an epic good time!

Quote from: Skywalker;804275Yes. The three main default styles of play are NEG Mecha, Elder Society Tagers and everything else. The first has the focus on mecha and includes a subfocus of Engels (powerful occult biomecha). The later two don't include mecha.

The last includes a range of character types, including sorcerers, parapsychics, powered armour pilots (as distinct from mecha) and a vast arrange of skilled individuals. My best game of CTech was an OIS police investigation campaign falling in this category, in which I played a highly skilled tech monkey. We never had Tagers or Mecha, and the other PCs consisted of the PC types I mentioned.

Of my four demo scenarios, mecha arent integral to either To Kill A Lie (Tagers) or Lambs of a Nameless God (parapsychics).

Thanks! I was curious since I've usually seen Cthullutech referred to as the "Punch C'thullu in the Face with Mecha" game. I'm glad to hear there's more to it than that.

Quote from: rgalex;806907I keep seeing people say the 3 "core" modes of play can't mix.  I played in a C-Tech game that lasted for almost 2 years and our group consisted of a tagger, a parapsychic, 3 mech pilots, 2 engle pilots and a few regular joe types.  The GM bent the setting to accommodate it all, but mechanics-wise we were fine.

I agree. The only PC type that is inherently more powerful than the other PCs are Tagers, so including them in a mixed group can require some thought. Otherwise, mixing is just fine IME

Quote from: Nexus;806992Thanks! I was curious since I've usually seen Cthullutech referred to as the "Punch C'thullu in the Face with Mecha" game. I'm glad to hear there's more to it than that.

The anime shows that it draws on most are Evangelion, Guyver and Robotech. Those three roughly match the three main modes of play in Cthulhutech.

Of the three, only Evangelion is really "punch Cthulhu in the face with mecha" and even then the mecha are kind of like Mythos creatures themselves, so there is some interesting transhumanist and morality issues in there.

Guyver is human/Mythos creature hybrids punching Mythos creatures in the face, with lots of intrigue and infiltration. Robotech is shooting alien mecha with mecha, with lots of military drama.

Quote from: Nexus;804232If its not taking the thread too much off topic, does the CTech setting have room for non mecha based campaigns?

Yes. In fact its got several modes of play that don't mix well: Human investigative/Sorcerors and Psychics mostly. Tager (aka Guyver) scale, Power Armor Scale, and then Mecha Scale.

Quote from: Silverlion;807079Yes. In fact its got several modes of play that don't mix well: Human investigative/Sorcerors and Psychics mostly. Tager (aka Guyver) scale, Power Armor Scale, and then Mecha Scale.

Sorcerers and Parapsychics have similar exponential XP advancement, which is why they are criticised for not being compatible with Tagers which are front loaded. But without Tagers they should mix together fine.

As for vehicular scales, I agree that the scaling mechanic should have been less. I use a x5 rather than a x50 which helps a lot without needing to change stats. But I don't think that is what people refer to when they talk about PC types not mixing well. A mecha pilot can jump into power armour and vice versa (there is no PA scale FWIW). Again, only Tagers are an issue as they are expected to interact at a vehicular level and can only do so through limited hybrid damage.

Quote from: Skywalker;807117As for vehicular scales, I agree that the scaling mechanic should have been less. I use a x5 rather than a x50 which helps a lot without needing to change stats. But I don't think that is what people refer to when they talk about PC types not mixing well. A mecha pilot can jump into power armour and vice versa (there is no PA scale FWIW). Again, only Tagers are an issue as they are expected to interact at a vehicular level and can only do so through limited hybrid damage.

I was using scale to refer to "characters playable together in the same adventure without houserules" in general people in power armor are combat scaled differently than Tagers or plain humans. Outside the armor, they'd be fine in a human only game, but that defeats the point of playing a power armor/mecha pilot. The in game scales for damage etc are a mess, so badly that I think they compare to Palladiums MDC/SDC split. A smaller shift would improve that I think as you suggest.

I understand what you are saying but in my mind that's a comment that could be made with any RPG with military hardware in it. You wouldn't play Star Wars and expect PCs without ATSTs to contribute as well to direct combat as those with ATSTs.

It's worth noting that Powered Armour isn't purchased by PCs with XP or even a wealth resource in Cthulhutech. They are effectively allocated by GM based on the context. So if one PC has one and others don't then this is not the same as the fundamental PC compatibility (and often raised) issue of Tagers with their front loaded abilities (whilst all other PC types advance exponentially). I agree that Tagers present a compatibility issue if you run a mixed group in Cthulhutech, but it is its only PC compatibility issue.

Quote from: Skywalker;807204I understand what you are saying but in my mind that's a comment that could be made with any RPG with military hardware in it. You wouldn't play Star Wars and expect PCs without ATSTs to contribute as well to direct combat as those with ATSTs.

False equivilency, as no Star Wars game I am aware of had ATSTs front loaded as play options.  The existence of military vehicles in an RPG does not mean the game is about playing tank drivers.

In Cthulu-tech, however you explicitly build a 'tank driver', along side the player making his slightly off-kilter psychic, and that other player making an ordinary schmuck who just learned his sister is being held by a Deep-One rape gang, and is motivated to save her despite his absolute lack of training with weapons or whatever.

QuoteIt's worth noting that Powered Armour isn't purchased by PCs with XP or even a wealth resource in Cthulhutech. They are effectively allocated by GM based on the context.

The only thing that keeps this from being a damn dirty lie is that it is, at best, deception through deliberate choice of context. True: You don't 'buy' power armor as a character resource in Cthulutech.

You DO however buy 'Tager' powers or Engle-Mechs, the Tager being a more problematic version of Power Armor, and the Engles being, well, Mecha.  Do I need to cite a page number for you?

Thus the compatability issue is raised by the players in a way few other games do.  

Never mind how messed up a game would be where one player is a Tager, another is an Engle Pilot, and the third guy?: He's got massive skills with a Power Armor suit, but only has a sweet trench coat and a pistol, since the GM never lets him have access to a PA suit.

Quote from: Spike;807496...

In Cthulu-tech, however you explicitly build a 'tank driver', along side the player making his slightly off-kilter psychic, and that other player making an ordinary schmuck who just learned his sister is being held by a Deep-One rape gang, and is motivated to save her despite his absolute lack of training with weapons or whatever.
...

Why in the fuck would you play a game like that? Why would you run it? Because the book said you could?

You can run D&D with 4 first-level magic users too. If you like playing personal horror where the theme is helpless manslaughter.

This argument is pure nonsense. You don't run the game with a mixed group unless the GM can find a way to give everyone something to do, work in the same team, and/or get equal screen time. Did you read the example above? Someone pulled this off in an epic manner. Since someone used the game to do just this, your argument seems bunk to me.

Maybe YOU don't want to run a game like this, so then YOU shouldn't. But trying to convince me that Cthulutech is somehow "broken" because you can run a mixed group is ridiculous. First, it CAN be done (see above). Second, it's not recommended in the book. Third, you shouldn't ever feel compelled to run a game in a way that you think it's not fun. The setting and system are quite useful and there's PILES of info/ideas/stuff in there to make all kinds of fun interesting games.

Personally I would not run a game of Cthulutech with a "mixed" group. There would be a theme (government agents, Tager team, Engel team...) and a somewhat focused reason all the characters are out in this dark world together.

Quote from: Spike;807496False equivilency, as no Star Wars game I am aware of had ATSTs front loaded as play options.  The existence of military vehicles in an RPG does not mean the game is about playing tank drivers.

It's not really a false equivalence though. A space transport or a star fighter is even more powerful than an AT-AT or an AT-ST and space ships are something beginning characters routinely and fairly commonly start with in Star Wars. Depending on how the group handles what the other characters can do while the pilot flies their ship makes a big difference on whether or not that particular Star Wars campaign is fun to play.

Quote from: Spike;807496False equivilency, as no Star Wars game I am aware of had ATSTs front loaded as play options.  The existence of military vehicles in an RPG does not mean the game is about playing tank drivers.

It's not a false equivalency. You go through the same process in Cthulhutech as you do in most Star Wars games in terms of PC options and making sure PCs are on the same page roughly (or understand the differences). If you don't, then you will hit the same issues in both RPGs.

As said, no PC in Cthulhutech starts with a mecha unless the GM allows one. And there are many other options in Cthulhutech and Star Wars other than a mecha or ATST driver/X-Wing pilot.

Quote from: Spike;807496You DO however buy 'Tager' powers or Engle-Mechs, the Tager being a more problematic version of Power Armor, and the Engles being, well, Mecha.  Do I need to cite a page number for you?

I already said that Tagers are a compatibility issue and agree they can be purchased at PC creation.

The Engel trait you cite is for the Engel Synthesis Interface. It doesn't guarantee that you have ready access to an Engel in every session as they are significant military resources, even if you are synthesised with it. The drawback is designed to, and does, redress the imbalance between mecha pilots and Engel pilots, but it doesn't allow Engel pilots to somehow avoid the same restrictions that mecha pilots inherently have.