Critical Role affects would-be normal #DnD newbs in the same way that porn can affect virgin's perceptions of what normal sex is like. And it has much the same effects in terms of potential dysfunction when trying the real thing.
[video=youtube_share;XW0AT3TVe3I]https://youtu.be/XW0AT3TVe3I[/youtube]
NOTE: just feel like I have to add a reminder here, it's against RPGsite rules to post any porn here.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1070655Critical Role affects would-be normal #DnD newbs in the same way that porn can affect virgin's perceptions of what normal sex is like. And it has much the same effects in terms of potential dysfunction when trying the real thing.
[video=youtube_share;XW0AT3TVe3I]https://youtu.be/XW0AT3TVe3I[/youtube]
NOTE: just feel like I have to add a reminder here, it's against RPGsite rules to post any porn here.
I haven't seen the whole video yet (only had time to check out the beginning this morning, so my reaction may not account for later points you make). But the gist of the argument is one that makes more sense to me than the previous video on the subject. I do think that podcasts, and especially one like Critical Role, at the very least, are showing you an idealized game under the best of possible conditions (and that they are not as likely to crop up naturally in play). But my feeling on that is, it isn't the fault of Mercer or of this format that people build unrealistic expectations off of something that is aiming to be entertaining and not waste peoples' time. Just like I wouldn't blame a video game or action movie for kids doing something crazy. I do think there is value in pointing out the difference between critical role and a typical session. But I also think it is a play style issue. CR to me seems to be more in the style of campaign where drama and story arcs are significant parts of the campaign. That style of play isn't one that gets a lot of traction here, it isn't one I myself particularly like that much, but you've seen people for ages now play this way (and it is very common in the mainstream of the hobby I think). Their show just seems like a really heightened version of that, with some heavy role-play thrown in (some of what they do also reminds me of players who get really, really, into their character). That they are professional actors is also significant. I'm never going to sound like Matt Mercer, I have a pretty dry delivery unless I've built up some steam over the session, and I imagine many GMs are similar. But there are more animated GMs with real acting chops out there.
My own experience of the Mercer effect has been pretty mild. I mentioned this in the other thread. Mostly it is the same sign I encounter when I meet someone who comes from a different style playgroup (they just come in with different expectations and I have to explain to them, there are lots of ways to approach the game, this is the way I am comfortable running a game, and I'll try to do it in a way that appeals to their sensibilities if I can, etc) .With the Mercer stuff, I just see this as an opportunity more than anything. It is bringing tons of people into the hobby. Some of them may be developing unrealistic expectations, or they may not realize that Mercer is presenting just one style of play and that there are a lot of other ways to approach a campaign (my sense is this is what Mercer was trying to convey with his post on the topic). This presents a chance to explain to people why we play the way we do, what we think the strengths of our approach are (i.e. we play to the strengths of the medium, we don't fight against it to get more desirable outcomes, etc).
Quote from: RPGPundit;1070655Critical Role affects would-be normal #DnD newbs in the same way that porn can affect virgin's perceptions of what normal sex is like. And it has much the same effects in terms of potential dysfunction when trying the real thing.
[video=youtube_share;XW0AT3TVe3I]https://youtu.be/XW0AT3TVe3I[/youtube]
NOTE: just feel like I have to add a reminder here, it's against RPGsite rules to post any porn here.
I haven't seen the whole video yet (only had time to check out the beginning this morning, so my reaction may not account for later points you make). But the gist of the argument is one that makes more sense to me than the previous video on the subject. I do think that podcasts, and especially one like Critical Role, at the very least, are showing you an idealized game under the best of possible conditions (and that they are not as likely to crop up naturally in play). But my feeling on that is, it isn't the fault of Mercer or of this format that people build unrealistic expectations off of something that is aiming to be entertaining and not waste peoples' time. Just like I wouldn't blame a video game or action movie for kids doing something crazy. I do think there is value in pointing out the difference between critical role and a typical session. But I also think it is a play style issue. CR to me seems to be more in the style of campaign where drama and story arcs are significant parts of the campaign. That style of play isn't one that gets a lot of traction here, it isn't one I myself particularly like that much, but you've seen people for ages now play this way (and it is very common in the mainstream of the hobby I think). Their show just seems like a really heightened version of that, with some heavy role-play thrown in (some of what they do also reminds me of players who get really, really, into their character). That they are professional actors is also significant. I'm never going to sound like Matt Mercer, I have a pretty dry delivery unless I've built up some steam over the session, and I imagine many GMs are similar. But there are more animated GMs with real acting chops out there.
My own experience of the Mercer effect has been pretty mild. I mentioned this in the other thread. Mostly it is the same sign I encounter when I meet someone who comes from a different style playgroup (they just come in with different expectations and I have to explain to them, there are lots of ways to approach the game, this is the way I am comfortable running a game, and I'll try to do it in a way that appeals to their sensibilities if I can, etc) .With the Mercer stuff, I just see this as an opportunity more than anything. It is bringing tons of people into the hobby. Some of them may be developing unrealistic expectations, or they may not realize that Mercer is presenting just one style of play and that there are a lot of other ways to approach a campaign (my sense is this is what Mercer was trying to convey with his post on the topic). This presents a chance to explain to people why we play the way we do, what we think the strengths of our approach are (i.e. we play to the strengths of the medium, we don't fight against it to get more desirable outcomes, etc).
... :confused: (What's happened to my TheRPGsite? Hold me, I'm scared!)
Quote from: Opaopajr;1070674... :confused: (What's happened to my TheRPGsite? Hold me, I'm scared!)
Shhh, there there, it's OK, it was just a bad dream. An overblown argument about 3d6 in order will crop up soon and make it all alright.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1070655Critical Role affects would-be normal #DnD newbs in the same way that porn can affect virgin's perceptions of what normal sex is like. And it has much the same effects in terms of potential dysfunction when trying the real thing.
What? Is it that good?
A better comparison would be playing football with friends in the backyard VS the NFL.
I've never seen Critical Role and watched like 5 minutes of it the other day.
Just two points from only 5 minutes of it:
1) We never allowed players to roll their own perception.
2) I'd boot the chick who says 'fuck', 'fucking', 'fucker' every two seconds.
If CR is porn, nobody would ever have sex.
I think the analogy is pretty spot on. And I think Brendan is rigut that this style of play is very popular, especially with the younger than 30 set.
I think we have a lot more drama geeks playing D&D these days than nerds that are good at math.
I spent more time laughing at the outfits these guys were wearing at chapter two. No seriously go look at the thumbnails. One guy was dress up as if he was a little school boy from the 1950's.
As for the show itself. Twenty minutes in and already want to fucking leave. The pretentious makes for so much cringe that I had to leave like a vampire escaping sunlight.
Haven't ever watched critical role, never saw any reason to. However, running a plot-focused RPG campaign CAN be done but it's one of the most difficult and exhausting (for the GM) kind of campaigns to DM and there's a high likelihood of things either meandering off course and getting goofy, ending up with passive players used to being lead around by the nose or ending feeling like a really slow CRPG with really bad graphics.
It can done if the GM is very skilled and really stays on top of things and stays one step ahead of the PCs and threads the needle by keeping the PCs on track without railroading them. But at the end of the day it's just easier and a lot more fun to just stop giving a shit, sit back, relax and let the players take the wheel and get themselves into trouble. In retrospect trying to run a game in the vein of Critical Role ruined RPG gaming for me as a teen in the 90's since I couldn't herd PC cats well enough to make it work. Enjoy GMing so much more now when I can just let the PC cats loose in the woods and not have to worry about trying to push them through my crappy unpublished fantasy novel.
I swear the next time a nerd-orbiting soi disant "TOTAL GEEK, GUYS!" who pings me on FB and asks if I've watched/am watching/have seen the latest "episode" of Critical Role I'm gonna scream.
Quote from: rawma;1070677Shhh, there there, it's OK, it was just a bad dream. An overblown argument about 3d6 in order will crop up soon and make it all alright.
:confused:
/relaxes
... it was the way God intended us to have chargen. :( It kept the cosmos demographics of paladins & rangers in check. :o
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1070671I haven't seen the whole video yet (only had time to check out the beginning this morning, so my reaction may not account for later points you make). But the gist of the argument is one that makes more sense to me than the previous video on the subject. I do think that podcasts, and especially one like Critical Role, at the very least, are showing you an idealized game under the best of possible conditions (and that they are not as likely to crop up naturally in play).
Well, that's not quite right, though. Porn, for example, doesn't show you an 'idealized sex under the best of all possible conditions'. Instead, it shows you an ACT, meant to titillate the viewer, with inherently fake scenarios and sexual activity that actually would not be ideal in real life. Some of the positions in porn are shot just for the sake of the camera angle, or to focus on specific body parts, or just to prove that actual intercourse is going on; and those positions in real life would be uncomfortable and not the most pleasurable to do.
Critical Role is the same vis a vis a real RPG session.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1070721As for the show itself. Twenty minutes in and already want to fucking leave. The pretentious makes for so much cringe that I had to leave like a vampire escaping sunlight.
I know exactly what you mean. The research for these videos has been excruciating.
Quote from: Opaopajr;1070752:confused:
/relaxes
... it was the way God intended us to have chargen. :( It kept the cosmos demographics of paladins & rangers in check. :o
Make another thread about it. That's not the subject of this thread.
What are you trying to achieve here?
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1070778What are you trying to achieve here?
My question, too. Seriously, wtf do you care, Pundit? Asking for real. Just ignore this crap and advocate for the style of game you enjoy.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1070778What are you trying to achieve here?
Provoke a discussion? Grind an axe? It's his forum, he can post whatever he likes.
Thinking on it. This is not exactly an old thing really. There have been people who for whatever reason get it in their head that ALL, no really ALL, roleplay sessions are people sitting around the table dressed as their characters and talking in funny voices. That ones been around since at least the 90s and probably longer.
There is allways going to be people like this who see ONE DAMN THING and get it stuck in their little walnut brains that that is what it all is.
This is just another iteration of that. The majority of players though look at these sorts of vids and have enough functional brain cells to know that this is just one style of play amongst a vast variety.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1070655Critical Role affects would-be normal #DnD newbs in the same way that porn can affect virgin's perceptions of what normal sex is like. And it has much the same effects in terms of potential dysfunction when trying the real thing.
I agree with this statement.
Quote from: soltakss;1070813It's his forum, he can post whatever he likes.
Yes, and I'm asking him
what he hopes to achieve by doing so.
Because despite his claims of fighting for something all I've ever seen is shameless self-promotion. Ultimately he's no better than Daniel Fox, who hilariously blocked me on #Twitter after I made the same comparison on Google+. Seriously, it
still wouldn't surprise me if they're actually working together with the way they both cultivate controversy.
I'm also not an idiot. He deliberately compared CR to porn rather than say professional wrestling
because it carries additional implications. And he
knows this. So it's a cheap rhetorical trick disguised as a useful insight, which is something I particularly can't stand.
So what's the fucking endgame here Pundit, if there even is one?
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1070849Y Ultimately he's no better than Daniel Fox
Steady on old bean!
as I said on youtube, "Porn has better actors"
I'll go further and say it probably has better acting and plots as well, not sure having never been able to sit through a whole episode of CR. I tried man, I really did.
one of my friends asked me if CR was the one with porn stars, and I told them that CR was the one with the dead eyed actors and actresses, going through the motions for money.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1070755I know exactly what you mean. The research for these videos has been excruciating.
I just won't fucking do it. Fuck this shit, sure I guess I'm a Luddite, but no.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1070778What are you trying to achieve here?
I'm trying to do what Mercer refuses to: making sure people, especially new potential D&D-players, understand that the way CR is filmed is not really how a normal D&D session goes.
That, and in the broader sense save Western Civilization.
Quote from: Omega;1070821Thinking on it. This is not exactly an old thing really. There have been people who for whatever reason get it in their head that ALL, no really ALL, roleplay sessions are people sitting around the table dressed as their characters and talking in funny voices. That ones been around since at least the 90s and probably longer.
.
You know, that's a good point. The CR stuff is actually playing off the TV-show stereotype of D&D games from decades ago, which never had any resemblance to how real games went. But Mercer knows that much of his non-gaming audience will expect it because that's what they've seen in shows and movies.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1070849Yes, and I'm asking him what he hopes to achieve by doing so.
Because despite his claims of fighting for something all I've ever seen is shameless self-promotion. Ultimately he's no better than Daniel Fox, who hilariously blocked me on #Twitter after I made the same comparison on Google+. Seriously, it still wouldn't surprise me if they're actually working together with the way they both cultivate controversy.
I'm also not an idiot. He deliberately compared CR to porn rather than say professional wrestling because it carries additional implications. And he knows this. So it's a cheap rhetorical trick disguised as a useful insight, which is something I particularly can't stand.
So what's the fucking endgame here Pundit, if there even is one?
Answered above.
And my dude, I actually
like porn. I don't like pro wrestling. If the point of the comparison was to denigrate, I'd have used wrestling. But the point was accuracy, and actually the Porn metaphor is much more effective.
But I made it clear right at the start of the video that I'm completely pro-porn. It isn't a cheap trick; the cheap trick is Mercer trying to pretend that his pre-fab TV show is a totally normal game of D&D just like you have at home.
Anyways, I guess you've found one difference between me and that other piece of shit you mentioned; I'm not going to ban you for making the comparison.
Have you guys run into anybody in real life that think that CR is how D&D is played? Or how it should be played? I actually think the Penny Arcade guys did a better job showing folks how to get into the hobby when they started really covering D&D in the 3.x and 4E era.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1070919I'm trying to do what Mercer refuses to: making sure people, especially new potential D&D-players, understand that the way CR is filmed is not really how a normal D&D session goes.
That, and in the broader sense save Western Civilization.
You're the fucking best!
Quote from: RPGPundit;1070923Answered above.
And my dude, I actually like porn. I don't like pro wrestling. If the point of the comparison was to denigrate, I'd have used wrestling. But the point was accuracy, and actually the Porn metaphor is much more effective.
But I made it clear right at the start of the video that I'm completely pro-porn. It isn't a cheap trick; the cheap trick is Mercer trying to pretend that his pre-fab TV show is a totally normal game of D&D just like you have at home.
Anyways, I guess you've found one difference between me and that other piece of shit you mentioned; I'm not going to ban you for making the comparison.
Seriously people, this forum might be a seriously fucked up echo chamber, but Pundie is legit!
Quote from: Lurtch;1070929Have you guys run into anybody in real life that think that CR is how D&D is played? Or how it should be played? I actually think the Penny Arcade guys did a better job showing folks how to get into the hobby when they started really covering D&D in the 3.x and 4E era.
No, because even the mentally ill can recognize that CR is an inexact sop applied to balance that doesn't actually work in any WotC edition of the game.
Quote from: Lurtch;1070929Have you guys run into anybody in real life that think that CR is how D&D is played? Or how it should be played?
I have one friend that believes that CR shows an ideal game. He doesn't believe it is how games are actually played (he's been running and playing for 40+ years) or necessarily a type of gameplay that is even possible 99% of the time, but it's his holy grail. Whenever he mentions it, I just sigh and shake my head.
He even lauded the fact that I bought the Tal'dorei Campaign Setting... until I was critical of it for lacking substance. He told me it's not about what's in the book that makes it great but rather what Mercer & crew do with it. IOW, I didn't watch CR, so I couldn't appreciate it. I told him I was only judging the book by the contents of the book and he could fuck off. We're good friends, and we can disagree on all sorts of shit without it really mattering to either of us.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1070919I'm trying to do what Mercer refuses to: making sure people, especially new potential D&D-players, understand that the way CR is filmed is not really how a normal D&D session goes.
Most people at least those with enough functioning brain cells in their heads know CR is not a normal session of D&D. Sure some who don't give a fuck about anything or everything will assume it' the gospel truth. That's on them and not CR or anyone else who runs their games to assume responsibility for.
Your not doing this to save gaming your doing this because he is more popular imo. If it was not CR it would be a rant about Narrative rpgs and how they are killing the hobby and how every new player to the hobby assumes that all rpgs are like that. All because some people on Twitter told you it was so.
Quote from: SP23;1070938No, because even the mentally ill can recognize that CR is an inexact sop applied to balance that doesn't actually work in any WotC edition of the game.
Seconded.
As I said before if your too lazy and ignorant to do a search on the internet to read up or watch other videos it's on the person. Is their some who do believe that CR is the only way to play sure. Nothing like the end times amount that Pundit is trying to push in his narrative. He has one thread where most people disagreed with him now he posts a similar one in the hopes he will get a different reaction.
Quote from: Lurtch;1070929Have you guys run into anybody in real life that think that CR is how D&D is played? Or how it should be played? I actually think the Penny Arcade guys did a better job showing folks how to get into the hobby when they started really covering D&D in the 3.x and 4E era.
Most of the people I play with both think it's a normal game and what they should strive for as a DM or player.
Quote from: SP23;1070938No, because even the mentally ill can recognize that CR is an inexact sop applied to balance that doesn't actually work in any WotC edition of the game.
I think in this context, they mean Critical Role, not Challenge Rating. Or did the joke just fly over my head? :)
Quote from: RPGPundit;1070921You know, that's a good point. The CR stuff is actually playing off the TV-show stereotype of D&D games from decades ago, which never had any resemblance to how real games went. But Mercer knows that much of his non-gaming audience will expect it because that's what they've seen in shows and movies.
I am pretty sure some groups do actually dress up as their characters for a session. Its just really rare offline. I have certainly seen people play Call of Cthulhu in period clothes too.
Its one of those "For fun" things like DMs crafting props for a session, handouts, or even traps for a thief player to handle.
Kind of the bridge between standard RPG play and LARP RPG play. Usually the spark is one or more players into costuming. Or someone good at crafting.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1070755I know exactly what you mean. The research for these videos has been excruciating.
Your research for Critical Role or Porn?
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1070988I think in this context, they mean Critical Role, not Challenge Rating. Or did the joke just fly over my head? :)
You're right, my bad.
So is this show like "The Guild" for D&D? I guess I should watch an episode to see what the hubbub is abub.
I bit the bullet and watched a short extract to see if I misremembered and Pundit had a point:
[video=youtube;3FGMkUakiDc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FGMkUakiDc[/youtube]
No, it still basically looks like a regular* gaming session. I liked how the players didn't know the rules, and Mercer sometimes corrects them, sometimes does not bother but still gets a rules-compliant result "Can I use my bonus action to talk?" - "Uh, ok".
He doesn't even particularly ham it up - if I were him I might have done my Gobliny voice when the PCs were tricking the goblins, but he just says "ok they're fooled".
*Maybe the dice rolls are fake. I wouldn't trust players just to tell me their result, as appeared to be happening.
That one seemed a bit more standard than some others. I've seen much worse from other peoples vids.
I think the big difference is CR has better production values. Better production values does not necessarily mean scripted. But. From experience. The more monetized these get the more likely they will start to be scripted a little, or alot. Hard to tell really sometimes as some players normal looks alot like someone elses scripted. Simply because of oration skills or lack thereof.
I couldn't watch more than a couple minutes because I was afflicted with boredom; other people gaming is just uninteresting to me. What I saw looked like a normal enough gaming group, just in a much snazzier gaming room than I have and with really good microphones and sound editing; DM guy definitely seemed to have some radio announcer bass tweaking going on at the very least. The roleplaying itself seemed standard fare for my experience, people acting out in character and fucking around.
Quote from: Valatar;1071116I couldn't watch more than a couple minutes because I was afflicted with boredom; other people gaming is just uninteresting to me.
This same thing happens if I try to watch soccer or tennis. In both cases, I love to play the games, but I can't stand watching them.
Quote from: Lurtch;1070929Have you guys run into anybody in real life that think that CR is how D&D is played? Or how it should be played?
sadly, yes. Last week I went to a gathering of GMs at the local game store, and the foreman of the meeting spent about half an hour telling us all how to make our games more like those on CR.
Later someone who had never run a game before was pressured into running D&D 5th using the starter set he had just bought, but he decided to run something based off of the anime Goblin Slayer.
For those of you not aware of the series, in it goblins go about kidnapping and raping the local women to increase their numbers. the only one who really sees them as a serious threat is the title character who most of the adventurer's guild looks down on.
Oddly enough the people at the game table didn't really have a problem with the goblins being depicted like that. what they DID have an issue with was when they went to buy equipment from the town blacksmith, was the fact that the smith in question was in fact black. The GM caved to pressure, and made him white.
Later when the PCs faced the goblins, the goblins hit everyone with sleeping gas, and dragged away all the female characters for the breeding pens. One of the players became upset that his transgender fighter, who identified as female, was not dragged off as well.
That was when I, from another table, started laughing, and had to leave.
Quote from: remial;1071119Later when the PCs faced the goblins, the goblins hit everyone with sleeping gas, and dragged away all the female characters for the breeding pens. One of the players became upset that his transgender fighter, who identified as female, was not dragged off as well.
That was when I, from another table, started laughing, and had to leave.
While this is hilarious, I doubt it has anything to do with CR.
Quote from: S'mon;1071132While this is hilarious, I doubt it has anything to do with CR.
it doesn't entirely, I partly needed to vent, and I was pretty sure that I could find an audience here that would agree that the events were pretty f-ed. Where as TBP would see me as a transphobic monster
Quote from: remial;1071158it doesn't entirely, I partly needed to vent, and I was pretty sure that I could find an audience here that would agree that the events were pretty f-ed. Where as TBP would see me as a transphobic monster
Well I would be upset if he didn't TPK all the remaining players. It's not like the Goblins would have left any alive nor are they known for having sleeping gas.
If the Goblins are going to differ from the source for GM convenience, then they might as well also appeal to player sensibilities.
Quote from: Rhedyn;1071171Well I would be upset if he didn't TPK all the remaining players. It's not like the Goblins would have left any alive nor are they known for having sleeping gas.
There was a Goblin Slayer episode where the Goblins used sleeping gas - the protagonists blocked the vents and sent many of the goblins to sleep instead.
Don't you know
anything? :eek:
Quote from: remial;1071158it doesn't entirely, I partly needed to vent, and I was pretty sure that I could find an audience here that would agree that the events were pretty f-ed. Where as TBP would see me as a transphobic monster
Yes, but the flip side here is that some of the posters don't believe that racist gamers could possibly exist.
Quote from: remial;1071158it doesn't entirely, I partly needed to vent, and I was pretty sure that I could find an audience here that would agree that the events were pretty f-ed. Where as TBP would see me as a transphobic monster
Wait, what you described actually happened? I thought you made up a story...
As for Critical Role, I was never insterested in watching, since watching other people play an RPG sounds like a terrible and boring use of my free time. Upon seeing a lot of threads (mostly on ENWorld) talking about it I decided to watch a random episode to see what the hubbub was all about. One thread started by Morrus to gauge what sort of youtube content ENWorlders watch said something like "besides Critical Role", which made it sound like some important shit.
God....how godawful must stuff be in order to shoo people away from it? I watched maybe 5-6 minutes and was bored out of my mind. I coulnd't watch enough to make up my mind if they were fully scripting it, but it did strongly resemble my country's favorite pastime, Soap Operas (which I find mind-numbingly unwatchable). So, I don't know enough about it to decide if I agree with Pundit or not, but if the rest of it is as bad as the short sample I watched, kill it with fire.
Quote from: BronzeDragon;1071217Wait, what you described actually happened? I thought you made up a story...
oh, how I wish it were made up.
Quote from: remial;1071225oh, how I wish it were made up.
In many, many different ways....I'm SO glad I'm old.
I wonder how many videos Smon watched to try to find the least fake-seeming CR possible?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1071250I wonder how many videos Smon watched to try to find the least fake-seeming CR possible?
I only watched the one - I wanted the one where a PC died as I thought that would be interesting but that was what the search turned up.
I thought seeing how a PC died would be easier to detect any scripting.
Critical Role is simply a tv show, nothing more. There may be some who are fooled into believing that an actual game is taking place but really, if they are too dumb to know the difference then the gaming world should rejoice. I don't have time to do all the gaming that I want and certainly no time to watch others mimic playing a game. The show is simply a soap opera for gaming geeks much like pro wrestling is for men. It has as much to do with actual gaming as pro wrestling does with competitive sports, which is to say zero.
Quote from: Valatar;1071116I couldn't watch more than a couple minutes because I was afflicted with boredom; other people gaming is just uninteresting to me. What I saw looked like a normal enough gaming group, just in a much snazzier gaming room than I have and with really good microphones and sound editing; DM guy definitely seemed to have some radio announcer bass tweaking going on at the very least. The roleplaying itself seemed standard fare for my experience, people acting out in character and fucking around.
+1.
Mercer seems respectful of the hobby. His players love his game. The fact that they're actors drives the style. Not my thing to watch other tables game, but it doesn't hurt the hobby. As someone who runs tables for young people, I appreciate anything that keeps the pursuits I love alive and kicking (now if someone could just do that for Strat-o-Matic, I can die in peace).
I thought the episodes done for Wil Weaton's Titansgrave were well done and interesting. Part of it was that it was (for me at the time) a new system and setting, but the fact that I could understand what everyone was saying, as they spoke clearly, and that the show was fairly obviously edited for time and celerity helped as well. (My only real issue with it was they played through the Titansgrave book, which kinda spoils the adventure. And I still want a followup to either the show or the book, as both were good starts to something more.)
Mercer and his ilk, for as 'great' of 'voice actors' as they all are supposed to be, sound like they are trying to speak while keeping a mouth full of oatmeal in their mouths. That and the characters were, IMO, flat and unintresting.
Quote from: cranebump;1071271His players love his game.
You mean, his employees? I'd certainly expect them to act as if they love his game, considering their paycheck depends on it.
Quote from: kythri;1071304You mean, his employees? I'd certainly expect them to act as if they love his game, considering their paycheck depends on it.
Hey if I was paid to play FATE or Apocalypse World, I could fake enjoying it for the camera even if I had dull, glazed-over eyes for the whole performance. Oh... It absolutely
is like porn.
Quote from: kythri;1071304You mean, his employees? I'd certainly expect them to act as if they love his game, considering their paycheck depends on it.
Cynical response. And I'd wager most of their income comes from somewhere else.
Not cynical at all.
Just pointing out that they're all SAG-AFTRA members, they're not doing this for free. And I seriously doubt that the crew is doing this for free, either.
And, I'm not suggesting that this show pays them handsomely, such that this is their only job, but, it is a job, and not a charity gig.
Quote from: kythri;1071314Not cynical at all.
Just pointing out that they're all SAG-AFTRA members, they're not doing this for free. And I seriously doubt that the crew is doing this for free, either.
And, I'm not suggesting that this show pays them handsomely, such that this is their only job, but, it is a job, and not a charity gig.
I'll grant that. But I think it's a stretch to imply their reactions are more or less inauthentic. Of course, "acting," and all, but they seem to be having fun.
Quote from: cranebump;1071321I'll grant that. But I think it's a stretch to imply their reactions are more or less inauthentic. Of course, "acting," and all, but they seem to be having fun.
A lot of porn actors have fun doing their jobs, too, and may not be acting 100% of the time, which I think was the entire point of this thread.
Quote from: Brad;1071442A lot of porn actors have fun doing their jobs, too, and may not be acting 100% of the time, which I think was the entire point of this thread.
Well now we need to have Pundit make his own OSR porn videos to show Matt how its done!
Then we'll have Matt make a video of him GMing himself as all the players unscripted. Then we'll compare the two and judge them. It's the only way we can know if we're being lied to.
Quote from: tenbones;1071450Well now we need to have Pundit make his own OSR porn videos to show Matt how its done!
Do you really want to find out what porn performed by average people with their 3d6 in order is going to look like? I know I don't.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1071495Do you really want to find out what porn performed by average people with their 3d6 in order is going to look like? I know I don't.
"Shit! Lelu Love fails her save vs wands. Take 1d6 damage as the Hitachi vibrator strikes true. Oh, also you're immobilized next round..."
Sounds more like Alpha Blue.
Quote from: kythri;1071304You mean, his employees? I'd certainly expect them to act as if they love his game, considering their paycheck depends on it.
And there it is!
Quote from: HappyDaze;1071306Hey if I was paid to play FATE or Apocalypse World, I could fake enjoying it for the camera even if I had dull, glazed-over eyes for the whole performance. Oh... It absolutely is like porn.
NOW you understand.
Quote from: Brad;1071442A lot of porn actors have fun doing their jobs, too, and may not be acting 100% of the time, which I think was the entire point of this thread.
Spoiler
This is also true. I'm sure the CR crew all like RPGs, and mostly like playing the game even on the show most of the time. It's just:
a) Not ALL of the time. And yet they can't let that show. They have to always seem totally content with the campaign.
b) Not AS MUCH as they appear to be all session long. They are "always on" which is the surest sign of fakeness. RPGs as a game are not the sort of thing where you're always on. It's not even meant to be. Games are very long, and you can't be always on during a game session without faking it. Which proves they're faking it (or doing some extremely serious drugs).
Quote from: RPGPundit;1071636Spoiler
This is also true. I'm sure the CR crew all like RPGs, and mostly like playing the game even on the show most of the time. It's just:
a) Not ALL of the time. And yet they can't let that show. They have to always seem totally content with the campaign.
b) Not AS MUCH as they appear to be all session long. They are "always on" which is the surest sign of fakeness. RPGs as a game are not the sort of thing where you're always on. It's not even meant to be. Games are very long, and you can't be always on during a game session without faking it. Which proves they're faking it (or doing some extremely serious drugs).
I guess there is a reasonable point here that new players may expect to be as constantly excited and stimulated as the CR players appear to be.
I think GMs should try to make their game generally entertaining, and players should seek to contribute. I don't want 20 minutes of fun in 4 hours. But there will always be lulls.
I was playing on monday with 2 CR fans, me and one other grognard, grognard GM. The cr fans emphasised voice acting in character play and were very entertaining, if anything it was a bit intimidating but I think they added to the game and kept the energy level high over the three hour game.
Quote from: S'mon;1071667I was playing on monday with 2 CR fans, me and one other grognard, grognard GM. The cr fans emphasised voice acting in character play and were very entertaining, if anything it was a bit intimidating but I think they added to the game and kept the energy level high over the three hour game.
How long had they been playing? New players seem to always be extremely high energy. At Garycon last year, my buddy ran a session of D&D 5th in my hotel room for a bunch of old grognards and one of the grognard's wives who had never played before. She was super into it and there was a part of the session where my buddy said, "Yeah, it's a kobold," we sort of went mehh, but she asks, "What's a kobold?" I told her after the game was over that it was nice to play with someone who wasn't some old jaded jackass and everyone else laughed because it was true. New players inject a "newness" into games that sort of reinvigorates people who have been playing for a long time.
Quote from: Brad;1071692How long had they been playing? New players seem to always be extremely high energy. At Garycon last year, my buddy ran a session of D&D 5th in my hotel room for a bunch of old grognards and one of the grognard's wives who had never played before. She was super into it and there was a part of the session where my buddy said, "Yeah, it's a kobold," we sort of went mehh, but she asks, "What's a kobold?" I told her after the game was over that it was nice to play with someone who wasn't some old jaded jackass and everyone else laughed because it was true. New players inject a "newness" into games that sort of reinvigorates people who have been playing for a long time.
Yup. I love seeing my son's enthusiasm at encountering stuff for the first time, without a lot of the preconceptions. Especially with having started him out on Mentzer Classic, he often tries negotiation with the monsters - many players who came in ca 2000-2011 with 3e & 4e default to the "it's a combat encounter - roll init" mentality.
Those two 'critters' I think have been playing for about a year.
Quote from: S'mon;1071727Yup. I love seeing my son's enthusiasm at encountering stuff for the first time, without a lot of the preconceptions. Especially with having started him out on Mentzer Classic, he often tries negotiation with the monsters - many players who came in ca 2000-2011 with 3e & 4e default to the "it's a combat encounter - roll init" mentality.
Those two 'critters' I think have been playing for about a year.
Good on you fro introducing your son to the hobby.
As I'm getting older as long as one is having fun and no one is being hurt physically (mentally that on them ) I see almost no wrong way to play the game. For lack of better comparison I was very Klingonesque when it came to encounters in my younger. Very much a hack and slash player and I outgrew that phase. As well as having some really good patient and willing to teach a newbie other styles of play. I find it easier to teach the younger players than the older players that not every creatures has to be attacked. With the older members very set in their ways. Were talking admantium set in their ways.
Quote from: S'mon;1071727Yup. I love seeing my son's enthusiasm at encountering stuff for the first time, without a lot of the preconceptions. Especially with having started him out on Mentzer Classic,
A very good place to start!
Quote from: S'mon;1071727Yup. I love seeing my son's enthusiasm at encountering stuff for the first time, without a lot of the preconceptions.
Are we still talking about porn?:eek:
Quote from: HappyDaze;1071837Are we still talking about porn?:eek:
Aleena's Tabard!!:eek:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Mox0FY6pVIE/UGj69x9CG-I/AAAAAAAAAos/hM0yZhUePvA/s1600/Aleena+by+Larry+Elmore.jpg)
Tracey Hurley wanted that Elmore filth banned!
Quote from: RPGPundit;1071636Spoiler
This is also true. I'm sure the CR crew all like RPGs, and mostly like playing the game even on the show most of the time. It's just:
a) Not ALL of the time. And yet they can't let that show. They have to always seem totally content with the campaign.
b) Not AS MUCH as they appear to be all session long. They are "always on" which is the surest sign of fakeness. RPGs as a game are not the sort of thing where you're always on. It's not even meant to be. Games are very long, and you can't be always on during a game session without faking it. Which proves they're faking it (or doing some extremely serious drugs).
You're the only one who seems to give a shit whether it's "authentic." And, since you're providing your own measure of authenticity, it's never going to be.
But, let's not kid ourselves -- you just don't like Mercer. But we can't just say it and leave it at that. We have to come up with "objective" reasons why what he's doing is "wrong."
That axe of yours has got to be ground to the nub by now...
Quote from: cranebump;1071915You're the only one who seems to give a shit whether it's "authentic." And, since you're providing your own measure of authenticity, it's never going to be.
But, let's not kid ourselves -- you just don't like Mercer. But we can't just say it and leave it at that. We have to come up with "objective" reasons why what he's doing is "wrong."
That axe of yours has got to be ground to the nub by now...
Does he actually care? I mean, I doubt anyone here really does, because people can do whatever the fuck they want and watch whatever they want. So we all play our games and ignore this crap, or watch it and enjoy it, or are completely oblivious that it exists. Until we try to get some new players and they expect the CR experience and are extremely disappointed that's not reality and then become disruptive dicks. I've dealt with something similar (new player expected Game of Thrones in a proto-Gygaxian game I was running) and while I tried the best I could to deal with it, he just never came around and became more annoying as the game continued.
So, maybe, just maybe, Pundit is attempting to head off a potential issue we might all experience in the future. You mentioned somewhere else that most players aren't troublesome, which is true, but all it takes is one asshole to fuck up a game. That guy I mentioned above derailed a two year campaign that was going extremely well in a matter of four or five sessions.
Problem rpg players existed long before Critical Role remotely even existed. So their is no issue and Pundit is imo wrong.
I had my share of problem players and DMs long before Mercer. Hell I was a problem player and out grew that phase.
Now if it's a common occurrence I concede that Pundit would have a point. In my area it's largely anecdotal almost no one has approached me thinking what they see ob CR is how D&D is played. My 11 year old girlfriend sister son was the only one and even at thsg he age he was intelligent enough to realize it's a show.
One guy who shows up thinking CR is the one true way is nothing more than a problematic player. An epidemic of them and the end times for the hobby hardly.
Point out their maybe an issue i applaud and respect that. Consistently coming across as the guy claiming it's the end times is fucking annoying imo
Like it or not Youtube is how the younger generation learns new knowledge. I'm not a child psychologist so it may not necessarily be a good thing.
What's next one player shows up with a tablet and the computer industry is ruining the hobby. Lock the doors, hide your dice...will some think of the grognards.
Quote from: sureshot;1071953Problem rpg players existed long before Critical Role remotely even existed. So their is no issue and Pundit is imo wrong.
The former statement, while correct, in no way validates the latter statement.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1072523The former statement, while correct, in no way validates the latter statement.
Your the only person here who is just trying to continue to controversy to get more clicks and sales.
Could players who insist that every rpg gaming table be like CR sure. Is it as bad as you keeping trying to make the problem be not at all imo.
I repeat their is no issue. Sure you might get the player who wants it to be like critical role absolutely. The unstoppable horde just waiting to invade my table to destroy. Is nothing but in your imagination. What's your proof a bunch of people on Twitter told you and because it's on the Internet it must true. Engage in onetruwayism and pretend that the sky is falling like chicken little and keep stirring the imaginary CR controversy pot which I get because controversy creates cash. At least try to make less of the same videos as it's one thing to hate CR as I'm not a fan myself. Your becoming obsessed imo. You remind of the DM who pulled a dick move on his players causing some or all a TPK. Goes online to get validation and be told he was not in the wrong. When he does not get his way on one forum goes on another and another until he gets validation of his position.
Quote from: sureshot;1072539Your the only person here who is just trying to continue to controversy to get more clicks and sales.
Could players who insist that every rpg gaming table be like CR sure. Is it as bad as you keeping trying to make the problem be not at all imo.
I repeat their is no issue. Sure you might get the player who wants it to be like critical role absolutely. The unstoppable horde just waiting to invade my table to destroy. Is nothing but in your imagination. What's your proof a bunch of people on Twitter told you and because it's on the Internet it must true. Engage in onetruwayism and pretend that the sky is falling like chicken little and keep stirring the imaginary CR controversy pot which I get because controversy creates cash. At least try to make less of the same videos as it's one thing to hate CR as I'm not a fan myself. Your becoming obsessed imo. You remind of the DM who pulled a dick move on his players causing some or all a TPK. Goes online to get validation and be told he was not in the wrong. When he does not get his way on one forum goes on another and another until he gets validation of his position.
To be fair, I have seen one player (only one so far) that hasn't been able to stick with the three gaming groups he's formed/joined in the last couple of years because of CR. He compares them unfavorably to CR and abandons them after a few sessions when they don't live up to his (unreasonable) expectations. In two of these, he was the GM for the group. This can parallel the CR = porn idea with the sexual dysfunctions that porn addiction can cause.
I had someone similar may years ago were talking late 80s early 90s. He enjoyed his first D&D campaign so much he expected every other campaign to be the same and jyst as great. No one could tell him otherwise and become extremely offended if myself or my gaming group at the time tried to tell him otherwise. He did not last very long as a member of our gaming group.
Of course CR does have an impact on the hobby. To the extent it's the end times where every player expects and demands the critical role experience. I don't think so. Now having written that watch my next player be exactly that lol.
Gamers or people who will not make a difference between CR and reality are not welcome at my tables. I don't have the time or willingness to deal with those who insist in being stupidly stubborn.
I'm not the one who invented the term "Mercer Effect". It was invented for a reason.
Whomever created the term it is not that big of an issue imo. Unless st least 10 players or more in 2019 either join a campaign I'm running or playing in. Then insist they want it to be like Critical role then I will admit and see it as a major problem to the hobby. Not one or two players while annoying hardly is an epidemic.
Pundit you seem dead set on continuing the controversy and beating an already pulped dead horse further. We get it you hate CR, Mercer, And anyone and everyone who likes the first two with the blazing hatred of 1000 runs. We hear now move on. Talk about something new or about Lion and Dragon., Arrows of Infra or Dark Albion.
Was talking to a new player yesterday who'd watch some Critical Role and been attracted by it and another Youtube streamed game to try D&D.
Me:
"Matt Mercer..."
He:
"Uh, is that the GM, the one with the long hair?"
:D
Quote from: sureshot;1073310Whomever created the term it is not that big of an issue imo.
It illustrates that it's not just Pundit who finds it an issue. There's been a number of people who have written about the Mercer Effect. It's a thing. Insinuating that Pundit is the only one who sees an issue with it is disingenuous at best.
Quote from: kythri;1073346It illustrates that it's not just Pundit who finds it an issue. There's been a number of people who have written about the Mercer Effect. It's a thing. Insinuating that Pundit is the only one who sees an issue with it is disingenuous at best.
I never said it was not a problem. Claiming it's an epidemic which can ruin the hobby is also being disingenuous at best as well. Most normal sane gamers know that what they see during CR is not what happens at most tables. A few players who refuse to separate fantasy from fiction is not that an epidemic that can ruin the hobby.
It's like claiming every tabletop games is a socially inept nerd, with poor hygiene problems, I had the misfortune of actually playing and gaming with some. I never assumed every gamer would be or act that way. I consider it an issue a very small one. Until I see the imaginary hordes of CR obsessed gamers then I will concede to being wrong. I'm not worried in the least because it will never come to pass.
Greetings!
Wow. I just noticed that Laura Bailey is a regular cast member of Critical Role.
"Daughter of the Sea" Part of the soundtrack for World of Warcraft's latest expansion, Battle For Azeroth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo7XPvwRgG8
Yeah. *THAT* Laura Bailey. Famous singer employed by Blizzard Entertainment. Millions of fans. Definitely not an amatuer. Laura Bailey is the lead singer of "Daughter of the Sea"; Warbringers: Jaina.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: sureshot;1073355I never said it was not a problem. Claiming it's an epidemic which can ruin the hobby is also being disingenuous at best as well.
It's not the epidemic, it's one symptom of an epidemic. What can ruin the hobby is the SJW agenda for the hobby, which is being fought on multiple fronts. Promoting the idea that that passive non-gaming CR fans (which they can then claim to speak for) are full and equal members of a fictitious D&D umbrella "Community" (while their entryists in WoTC convince the company to increasingly make products for those non-gamers and to even make game-books that will appeal to those non-gamers more than to gamers) is how CR fits into the whole project.
Quote from: sureshot;1073355I never said it was not a problem. Claiming it's an epidemic which can ruin the hobby is also being disingenuous at best as well. Most normal sane gamers know that what they see during CR is not what happens at most tables. A few players who refuse to separate fantasy from fiction is not that an epidemic that can ruin the hobby.
It's like claiming every tabletop games is a socially inept nerd, with poor hygiene problems, I had the misfortune of actually playing and gaming with some. I never assumed every gamer would be or act that way. I consider it an issue a very small one. Until I see the imaginary hordes of CR obsessed gamers then I will concede to being wrong. I'm not worried in the least because it will never come to pass.
Greetings!
"Hordes of CR obsessed gamers!" LOL. I love it, Sureshot. That made me laugh!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RPGPundit;1073602It's not the epidemic, it's one symptom of an epidemic. What can ruin the hobby is the SJW agenda for the hobby, which is being fought on multiple fronts.
I will agree that art or any form of creative endeavour needs to remain free of political constraints. Politics should not limit the direction of the arts, no matter how good the cause seems to you. And no matter what the agenda, left, right, libertarian or what-have-you. Games that maximize diversity and games that play in white male-centric medieval europe can happily co-exist side-by-side. And if I can enjoy playing as a japanese Samurai in Sengoku-era Japan (not as a European explorer), why shouldn't black/hispanic/muslim dude enjoy playing as a white knight in medieval Europe? Youtube is full of reaction videos with black people enjoying the ultimately white-centric Game of Thrones.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1073602Promoting the idea that that passive non-gaming CR fans (which they can then claim to speak for) are full and equal members of a fictitious D&D umbrella "Community" (while their entryists in WoTC convince the company to increasingly make products for those non-gamers and to even make game-books that will appeal to those non-gamers more than to gamers) is how CR fits into the whole project.
For a broader look at the appeal of D&D and US fantasy: as a German, I kinda disagree with the general WoW-like thrust in fantasy that some prominent American settings provide. Classical fantasy is based on mythical medieval europe and when I look at WoW, it looks like a frickin' Las Vegas-version of that. It's as if you'd had bought a cool historical european castle, transported it stone for stone to Vegas and then built a cheap casino into it. That's not what my peasants have slaved for back then!
It goes without saying that I utterly disagree with the art direction of, say, WFRP 4E as well. But... consumers seem to like it, so what do I know?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1073602It's not the epidemic, it's one symptom of an epidemic. What can ruin the hobby is the SJW agenda for the hobby, which is being fought on multiple fronts. Promoting the idea that that passive non-gaming CR fans (which they can then claim to speak for) are full and equal members of a fictitious D&D umbrella "Community" (while their entryists in WoTC convince the company to increasingly make products for those non-gamers and to even make game-books that will appeal to those non-gamers more than to gamers) is how CR fits into the whole project.
Unlike SJWs which I do think can and will be a true epidemic on the hobby. I seriously doubt CR and Mercer are remotely in the same league. As I said before only those who insist on believing everything they see about something is based on reality is not CR or Mercer fault. It's being ignorant. When I saw Arnold leap into the year in this scene from Commando I knew even at a young age I knew I was not walking let alone limping away intact like he did in this scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjNQLXXwYfw . As for labeling people who are full or equal who are we to say. If I was told some of the stuff you and others says about who is "real" or not int this hobby. I might have walked away all those years ago. If they are having fun and willing to learn and be part of the community they should be welcomed not turned away. I transitioned from playing rpgs all the time to a causal member of the hobby. Does that suddenly mean I'm no longer a full and equal member of the hobby.
By whose set of arbitrary rules, mines yours or someone else. I just don't get this weird imaginary divide some have. Drawing an imaginary line in the sand. Some treating others who want to come into this hobby like we were treated all those years ago by the socially popular kids. Being a gamer is not a job it is a hobby, nor it is some kind of imaginary social status climbing ladder. Outside of the internet and some forums. Unless your a woke SJW jerk or just a plain jerk most will be accepted with open arms. Those who refuse to admit and accept CR is not more than a show are told to adapt or are shown the door. Most of us are not wasting time clutching pearls and going "what will the hobby do." Like it or not social media and Youtube is how many learn new things. Before it was oral tradition from person to person then books now social media. Nor is it going away anytime soon.
Pundit I think you and I will ever see eye to eye on this.
Quote from: SHARK;1074128Greetings!
"Hordes of CR obsessed gamers!" LOL. I love it, Sureshot. That made me laugh!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
With how Pundit and other try to spin it it seems that their is an army of Critical Role obsessed fans along the lines of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEJMnLZKuVU
Their target..roleplaying
Their objective..turn all existing rpgs into critical role
Pundit wants to give them a war and they don't want to give him one.
I see no reason why I should worry about a small group of gamers who cannot see the difference between reality and fiction. They either learn to accept and adapt to reality. Or they can seek a new table and/or possibly the nearest mental health care professional. I'm more worried as should others of the get woke attitude that many rpg companies are embracing. Compared to that the Critical Role obsessed people are not more than any annoyance to me at least.
Quote from: sureshot;1074196Unlike SJWs which I do think can and will be a true epidemic on the hobby. I seriously doubt CR and Mercer are remotely in the same league.
Mercer IS an SJW. He literally claimed that anyone who disagreed with him on the "unquestionable" guilt of Kavanaugh and the absolute truth of his accusers claims is a mental defective in need of psychiatric intervention.