Quote from: Gabriel2;735190Since 1989 I've used something similar to the AD&D2 optional method for critical hits.  If you roll a natural 20, then you hit and get a bonus attack.  I play it so the bonus attack doesn't necessarily have to be against the same opponent as the original attack.

I do this as well: 20 is an automatic hit, plus you get a free attack. For fumbles I flip it around: 1 is an automatic miss, but you've left an opening and that gives one opponent one free attack against you. In either case, the free attack can crit or fumble, which can be pretty hilarious. I combine this with Shields Shall Be Splintered to mitigate the PCs-take-more-attacks problem — which doesn't help thieves or magic-users, as is proper, or shieldless monsters.

Crits and Fumbles yes. I have fumble tables for thieves,  mages, and clerics too!

Arrows of Indra's criticals work like that: if you get a natural 20, you automatically hit.  And IF your roll + bonuses would have hit anyways, you get an extra attack.

RPGPundit

They speed combat up, so I'm all for them.

Quote from: Grymbok;735142Generally I've used critical hits in D&D, but there is definitely merit in the argument that using them universally is a bad thing for the players as the DM tends to roll more attack rolls than the party.

That is an attribute of critical hit systems yes.

The general advice of "deal with it" for some reason doesn't solve everyones problems no matter how many times I say give it

Quote from: Bill;735654I can't recall ever hearing a player complain that critical s exist. Even in Rolemaster.

Eh, a couple of my players have whined about getting critical hitted a couple of times.  My retort's always been, "You never complained when it was you dishing out the crits."  That shuts them up, invariably.

I haven't GMed D&D for a very long time, but I started using critical hits the moment I saw the table in Arduin.  For me, they corrected what I knew to be a critical realism flaw in D&D -- that there was no feasible way for a low-level type to punch out a high-level type, one-on-one.

Of course it doesn't "screw up" D&D.  It does make combat different, but I don't make the mistake of presuming that "different" = "OMG you broke the system!"

Quote from: Ravenswing;736605

I haven't GMed D&D for a very long time, but I started using critical hits the moment I saw the table in Arduin.  For me, they corrected what I knew to be a critical realism flaw in D&D -- that there was no feasible way for a low-level type to punch out a high-level type, one-on-one.

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More importantly there was no feasible way to have characters running around with missing buttocks.

Quote from: Ravenswing;736605For me, they corrected what I knew to be a critical realism flaw in D&D -- that there was no feasible way for a low-level type to punch out a high-level type, one-on-one.

This reminds me of my younger brother in the 90s. He was big into martial arts at the time and was attending a dojo with a fairly high level teacher.

He got called out for lack of humility and was told to take his best shot with the teacher.

He wakes up across the room. He went on to win a regional competition.

And at that point I had a hard time laying a finger on him without sneak attacking.

More levels/competence = less likely to get tagged.

And a natural 20 in D&D allready gives a lower level character a chance to tag even a high level opponent.

So go ahead and punch Elminster.

Thing is, Omega, there's an enduring truth in combat arts.  The Number One Fighter has little to fear from the 6th best fighter; they've usually trained in the same styles, know the same moves, know the usual counters, and have equal certitudes about which moves make sense and which ones are stupid.

The one he has to worry about is the newbie.  Sure, the newbie is going to get knocked across the room 19 times out of 20.  But that 20th time, the newbie gets in the shot ... because the Number One Fighter knows that no one attacks from that angle, using that strike, out of that stance -- it's self-evidently absurd, every trained fighter knows that!

D&D doesn't replicate this, because even if you use "natural 20 always hits," so what?  The newbie just tagged that 5th level fighter (and 5th level is very far from Number One Fighter) for 1d8 damage?  Big deal.  The 5th level fighter's got a few dozen more hit points.  He's not impaired in any way, shape or form, and promptly finishes the job.

I don't use crits in AD&D because they make two weapon fighting too good relative to sword & shield or two-handed weapon. Otherwise I like the 4e D&D rule 'max damage on a 20', I use that in Pathfinder instead of the usual double damage crits, which are too swingy IME - I like how it speeds the game up rather than 3e/PF's horrible clunky 'roll to confirm crit, then either you whiff or do x2/x3/x4 damage' system, about the worst I've ever seen.

If I didn't allow mutiple attacks from TWF in my AD&D game then max damage on a 20 would work well there, too. I might use it the next time I run BX or BECM/RC D&D, since that doesn't have TWF rules.

Quote from: Piestrio;736565That is an attribute of critical hit systems yes.

The general advice of "deal with it" for some reason doesn't solve everyones problems no matter how many times I say give it

Works for me! I just think it's one of those things you need to be aware of when making design choices. At low levels in D&D a single critical can turn the tide of battle, and so the fact that the enemies will likely get more of them can be an issue. As I recall, one of the first adventures published for 3e (either the one inserted in the PHB or the Sunless Citadel) included as an opponent to the players an Orc with a great-axe, which did X3 criticals. Can't recall off hand what the damage dice was - 2d6 or 1d12 I think. The net result was that if that Orc managed to roll even a single critical hit, someone was going to die (as this was a 1st level adventure). In our game, he got a critical on his first attack, so the players didn't even get to see what he rolled for normal damage first and know to be wary of him...

Quote from: Grymbok;736766Works for me! I just think it's one of those things you need to be aware of when making design choices. At low levels in D&D a single critical can turn the tide of battle, and so the fact that the enemies will likely get more of them can be an issue. As I recall, one of the first adventures published for 3e (either the one inserted in the PHB or the Sunless Citadel) included as an opponent to the players an Orc with a great-axe, which did X3 criticals. Can't recall off hand what the damage dice was - 2d6 or 1d12 I think. The net result was that if that Orc managed to roll even a single critical hit, someone was going to die (as this was a 1st level adventure). In our game, he got a critical on his first attack, so the players didn't even get to see what he rolled for normal damage first and know to be wary of him...

Seems like 1st level PC should be wary of a monster with a bloody big battle axe. There is a slight gamist take here. If you remove the game stuff and had a situation where a bunch of in experienced adventurers encounter an orc with a huge axe they would be wary of him, just like kids are wary of Jason in the Friday 13th movies. In D&D certainly TSR D&D most weapons do c.d8 damage and so you can kind of predict that a blow even a crit double damage isn't going to kill you though it might render you unconscious if you are a 1st level fighter with 9 or 10 HP.
Different games render this situation differently DnD, whilst we all think it is very lethal at low levels really isn't compared to most other RPGs.

I'm rather 'meh' on critical hits personally. And the first thing I houseruled was no 20s always hit and 1s always miss. There's other ways, especially with context and called shots, so that I don't bother with it.

However having ran a session recently where I used the 2e Punching and Wrestling tables extensively I am coming to like the idea of attaching KO% to attacks. Having at least two amazing one-shot KOs in that session at the very start of battle, knocking out a full HP opponent each (on still very low % I might add), left me wistful about incorporating something similar outside of subdue attacks. 2e already has turning martial weapons into subdue damage (5% KO per point of damage sustained, though all that damage is 75% non-lethal damage that fades quickly), which is kinda funny as it might be easier to KO a higher level opponent with lots of HP than try to kill them.

Huh, now that I think about it saves and subdue KO% might actually be the tools I'm looking for if I want to put the fear back into a crossbow pointed at one's prone, but high HP, chest...

I have to say, as to more complex crit rules, I was always dubious as to their viability with D&D rules; until I started playing DCC.  The DCC crit rules are fucking awesome.

Quote from: Opaopajr;736801I'm rather 'meh' on critical hits personally. And the first thing I houseruled was no 20s always hit and 1s always miss. There's other ways, especially with context and called shots, so that I don't bother with it.

However having ran a session recently where I used the 2e Punching and Wrestling tables extensively I am coming to like the idea of attaching KO% to attacks. Having at least two amazing one-shot KOs in that session at the very start of battle, knocking out a full HP opponent each (on still very low % I might add), left me wistful about incorporating something similar outside of subdue attacks. 2e already has turning martial weapons into subdue damage (5% KO per point of damage sustained, though all that damage is 75% non-lethal damage that fades quickly), which is kinda funny as it might be easier to KO a higher level opponent with lots of HP than try to kill them.

Huh, now that I think about it saves and subdue KO% might actually be the tools I'm looking for if I want to put the fear back into a crossbow pointed at one's prone, but high HP, chest...

Doesn't that break the D&D HP paradigm?

The 10 HP blow is supposed to be a glancing blow to the guy with 90hp. If it has a 50% chance of knocking them out it seems a bit more like a pretty solid whack...

I fix the last issue by usinf HP/wounds and shots at helpless folks come straight off Wounds and since you typically have 6 of them and they heal 1 point per week....

In the crossbow at the prone guy situation this is how it goes
DM: You look up and there is a guy staring at you holding a loaded heavy Crossbow.
Player: 1d4+1 damage well not worried about that.
DM: well ... this is how it would work. If you choose to go into combat we roll initiaitve. If you win then you get to act and when his crossbow goes off you have full HP. If you loose then his shot goes off before you can act and you will be prone and helpless so your HP won't count and if he hits you it coes off wounds.
Player: ah... changes things
DM: remember we use weapon speeds and a loaded bow gets a speed adjust of +0. Oh and at this range, point Blank, a crossbow will do double damage.
Player: so if I try to stab him with my longsword I get 1d10 + 5 -1 (for dex) and he gets 1d10 and lowest goes first and then if he hits me I have 1d4+1 doubled off my 6 wounds....
DM: Yup
Player: Okay I surrender, drop my sword and slowly raise my arms.
DM: Wise