Quote from: Balbinus1.  I regard the current obsession with kewl powerz and uber characters as basically immature, adolescent power gaming of the kind I grew out of many years ago.  I'm not saying it's never fun, I love Feng Shui, but for Christ's sake does it have to be so ubiquitous?  We look down on mindless Hollywood action movies as derivative crap, why make them the high point of our gaming?

I agree, but only sometimes. It is possible to have kewl powerz and still have a game with some depth in it. And there are times when depth is overrated and people just want to kill stuff and loot stuff.

Quote2.  People should have the balls to accept a bit of challenge in their games occasionally, losing is character building.

Damn straight!

Quote3.  There are better ways to make stories collectively than rpgs.  Rpgs as story-building devices work, but they produce trite and obvious stories that almost nobody would ever pay for in any other context (PTA being the only exception I can think of).

Only if you're doing it wrong.

Quote4.  Fudging is cheating.

Not if it's covered in the rules and/or house rules. For example, using coupons in Hackmaster is not cheating, even though it alters the output of die rolls. Using Fate Points or a similar mechanic is not cheating as long as everyon knows they exist. Other than that it's definitely cheating and should be avoided at all costs (except of course fun, because then what would be the point).

Quote5.  History is not made better by the addition of magic.  If you can't create an interesting plot based on human passion and motivations and nothing else (no magical curses, no alien or fantasy races, just plain people who want conflicting things) then you should learn to do so as you are missing a really fundamental GMing tool.

History is not made better with the addition of magic, but it can be made better with the addition of magic and a strong storyline to explain it and incorporate it.

Quote6.  You don't have to have an extraordinary character every time, the real challenge is making an ordinary character interesting.  

Yeppers.

Quote7.  Playing an ordinary guy in an interesting setting captures far more sense of wonder than playing an extraordinary character in a blandly over the top setting.

Depends on your definition of sense of wonder. A setting can be hugely interesting (such as street level cyberpunk) and never come close to evoking wonderment. I agree with the general principal though, if you replace capturing a sense of wonder with "creates a more enjoyable scenario."

Quote8.  Much gaming described as narrativist is simple power fantasy dressed up as something deeper.  For every gamer genuinely wanting thematically powerful narratives I think there are quite a few guys who just want the power to narrate that they never lose.

What's wrong with wanting the power to narrate that you never lose? If the group's into it and has fun doing it then more power to them. It's not for me, but I'm not egoitistical enough to assume that my way is the right way for everyone.

Quote9.  The development of rpg theory, and I do not just mean GNS, has not benefitted the overall hobby in any meaningful way.  Had none of it happened, we would still have just as many cool games today and probably fewer flamewars.

If it has caused the creation of good games then it's helped. I'm not familiar enough with the theorists and indie scene to know if that's actually happened or not, but I bet there are a lot of theorists who will tell me it has, and a lot of anti-theorists who would tell me it hasn't.

Quote10.  Playing a half-elf/half-giant hybrid doesn't mean your character is interesting, it just shows you aren't a good enough roleplayer to portray a credible human being.

Picking a nonhuman race doesn't mean you're a bad roleplayer. Picking a nonhuman race because you think it makes you a good roleplayer does make you a bad roleplayer.

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Now to go back and read the other 5 pages, after I get back from the playground. That's a hell of a lot funner than discussing RPGs online, and has the benefit that my kids are less likely to be insane tonight.

Quote from: jrientsWho is we?  Every gamer I know enjoys explodey action movies.  We can acknowledge them as derivative and shallow without looking down on such fare.  I get kicks out of action movies, pro-wrestling, comics, and D&D.[\QUOTE]

Oops. Forgot to respond to that part. I gotta agree with jrients on this one (except the pro-wrestling part, too much drama and not enough ass kicking).

Pro-wrestling is like opera but without the music, it's a spectacle of drama, passion and fat people.

Sure, it's not real, but nor is Opera.  And Opera doesn't have incredibly funny commentary to go with it:

"Hey, Jim, I see that The Truckinator is picking up a chair.  Oh no, he's hitting The Sledgehammer with the chair from behind, surely that's not allowed in the rules?"

If I wanna see name calling followed by girly fighting I can drive by a grade school at recess. At least there the blood is real.

Who could forget Mozart's immortal "Li ho colpiti con una sedia!" aria?

Quote from: James McMurrayIf I wanna see name calling followed by girly fighting I can drive by a grade school at recess. At least there the blood is real.

Dogg!  Look up "blading," all the blood in pro wrestling's been real since it was a carnival sideshow.

Further rumination on El Credo Del Fonkaygarry:

Put me in on the side of dumbloudbig movies and pro wrestling and all that.  Kill Bill was a stupid, gory swordfight picture that was two hours of a nineteen-year-old telling you how fucking cool Lady Snowblood (and Battles Without Honor or Humanity and Baby Cart Across the River Sanzu and Crazy Thunder Road and the Killer and the Wild Bunch and...) was the darling of the hour for all our appointed cultural elites.

Give anyone an excuse to like shit blowing up and (gasp!) they will!

So fuck yes shit will blow up and fights will be so big they are crazy and all the wimmin will be teh hawt and all the men will be teh bishi3 because why the fuck not?

Unless we're playing WFRP.  Then you will smear your boil-covered, scurvy-madness-having ass with Skaven shit to hide from the Rat Ogres and you will like it.

Quote from: RPGPunditExalted is exactly the same thing.  Its for all the Swine that make fun of D&D for being "powergaming".
They're allowed to have characters who can blow up cities with a single swing of a ridiculously oversized sword in Exalted, because its not about "powergaming" like that cheap banal D&D game; its about "dealing with sophisticated issues about coping with great power" (as one RPGnet idiot put it once).

Which is bull (the sophisticated issues thing, that is).  I've run Exalted.  We powergamed the living hell out of it, and had a great time doing it.

Was it puerile, adolescent trash?  You bet.

Were we willing to acknowledge that?  Absolutely.

Did acknowledging it make it better? Yes.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenWhich is bull (the sophisticated issues thing, that is).  I've run Exalted.  We powergamed the living hell out of it, and had a great time doing it.

Was it puerile, adolescent trash?  You bet.

Were we willing to acknowledge that?  Absolutely.

Did acknowledging it make it better? Yes.

And that I think is what makes Exalted click. Talking to others around here who have played the game, never once has it been a powergame masquerading as high art. It's always been a powergame all the way, and people have a ball doing it. For me Exalted is the powergame for fantasy, much in the same way that RIFTS is the powergame for sci-fantasy.

Quote from: JamesVFor me Exalted is the powergame for fantasy, much in the same way that RIFTS is the powergame for sci-fantasy.

Ayup.

(And for anyone thinking "But D&D!" - no.  D&D is the living deity of tactical play in RPGs, though, as well as having a pretty huge range of other ground it can cover.)

1. Your clues are not obvious enough. It's not because your players are thick (or it's not only that your players are thick), but your clues need big flags over them. And it's okay to slip a player a note and lie about how they made a secret perception roll if the game has bogged down.

2. Every player should be able to shake a stick. Players should have something they are good at and should always be able to fight in some way.

3. GM-arbitrated fudging is okay. I'm not going to stop a player at a dramatically appropriate moment because the dice came up a couple of percent out. I like degrees of success, because a partial failure is obviously also a partial success.

4. I play a role every day that is fun, exciting, involves deep character interaction with friends, colleagues and complete strangers. It doesn't have magic or madly futuristic technology so I kinda enjoy playing games where these things exist. And no, Magic, with a k or not, does not exist.

5. Your interpretation of the game background is correct. Last thing a game designer should do is try to correct your interpretation at a convention. Let a hundred flowers bloom.

6. Some people are just not as good a you. Some people can't hold a character together. Some people can't do accents. Some people can't separate in-character knowledge from out-of-character knowledge. Some people are whiny shits. You have to find out where you stand with these kinds of players. My advice - divorce them, fire them. Life is too short.

7. There will never be "enough" women in the hobby and yes, it's the gamers fault. It's not some stereotype. Some gamers are antisocial, immature, unsavoury and some are just smelly. Note there's no problem with being brash, crude, rude.

8. If you fuck up, I will kill your character. This isn't personal. Get over it. Make up a new one. Change the name at the top of the sheet. If you sulk, you're fired.

9. Exalted. It's like riding a fat girl - fun until a friend finds out.

10. RPGnet is full of whining pussies. And the wankers they chose for mods? Jesus.

11. It's a fucking shame about Jorune.

Quote from: PelorusAnd the wankers they chose for mods? Jesus.

It's not often that I'm compared with the Christian saviour.

*Snif*

Quote from: Levi KornelsenIt's not often that I'm compared with the Christian saviour.

*Snif*

You're a mod there? Right, you're off my fucking Christmas card list.

Quote from: PelorusYou're a mod there? Right, you're off my fucking Christmas card list.

The saviour of mankind needs not your petty trifles.

Really?  No appeal possible?  Damn it.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenReally?  No appeal possible?  Damn it.

That depends. If I manage to find a distributor in the US for Zombi, SNCC and The 23rd Letter...I might reconsider.

Quote from: PelorusThat depends. If I manage to find a distributor in the US for Zombi, SNCC and The 23rd Letter...I might reconsider.

Check out Key 20 and Indie Press Revolution.  Both are pretty cool.