Ok, this is the thread for stating your opinions clearly and without beating around the bush.  Let's not be polite, by which I don't mean let's flame each other for the sake of it (that would be a different thread really) but let's state flat out honestly what we think about aspects of gaming.

I'll start.  In no particular order:

1.  I regard the current obsession with kewl powerz and uber characters as basically immature, adolescent power gaming of the kind I grew out of many years ago.  I'm not saying it's never fun, I love Feng Shui, but for Christ's sake does it have to be so ubiquitous?  We look down on mindless Hollywood action movies as derivative crap, why make them the high point of our gaming?

2.  People should have the balls to accept a bit of challenge in their games occasionally, losing is character building.

3.  There are better ways to make stories collectively than rpgs.  Rpgs as story-building devices work, but they produce trite and obvious stories that almost nobody would ever pay for in any other context (PTA being the only exception I can think of).

4.  Fudging is cheating.

5.  History is not made better by the addition of magic.  If you can't create an interesting plot based on human passion and motivations and nothing else (no magical curses, no alien or fantasy races, just plain people who want conflicting things) then you should learn to do so as you are missing a really fundamental GMing tool.

6.  You don't have to have an extraordinary character every time, the real challenge is making an ordinary character interesting.  

7.  Playing an ordinary guy in an interesting setting captures far more sense of wonder than playing an extraordinary character in a blandly over the top setting.

8.  Much gaming described as narrativist is simple power fantasy dressed up as something deeper.  For every gamer genuinely wanting thematically powerful narratives I think there are quite a few guys who just want the power to narrate that they never lose.

9.  The development of rpg theory, and I do not just mean GNS, has not benefitted the overall hobby in any meaningful way.  Had none of it happened, we would still have just as many cool games today and probably fewer flamewars.

10.  Playing a half-elf/half-giant hybrid doesn't mean your character is interesting, it just shows you aren't a good enough roleplayer to portray a credible human being.

There's more, but I have to wait until they strike me.  Your turn.  Post honestly.

QuoteWe look down on mindless Hollywood action movies as derivative crap, why make them the high point of our gaming?

Who is we?  Every gamer I know enjoys explodey action movies.  We can acknowledge them as derivative and shallow without looking down on such fare.  I get kicks out of action movies, pro-wrestling, comics, and D&D.

Everything else you write seems pretty on-target to me.

Quote from: Balbinus1.  I regard the current obsession with kewl powerz and uber characters as basically immature, adolescent power gaming of the kind I grew out of many years ago.  I'm not saying it's never fun, I love Feng Shui, but for Christ's sake does it have to be so ubiquitous?  We look down on mindless Hollywood action movies as derivative crap, why make them the high point of our gaming?

Um... I haven't quite grown out of this myself. I happen to greatly enjoy immature, adolescent powergaming. And what's so wrong with Hollywood action? Or derivative crap for that matter?

Quote2.  People should have the balls to accept a bit of challenge in their games occasionally, losing is character building.

Works for me.

Quote3.  There are better ways to make stories collectively than rpgs.  Rpgs as story-building devices work, but they produce trite and obvious stories that almost nobody would ever pay for in any other context (PTA being the only exception I can think of).

Stories just don't kick ass like games do.

Quote4.  Fudging is cheating.

Then call me a cheater.

Quote5.  History is not made better by the addition of magic.  If you can't create an interesting plot based on human passion and motivations and nothing else (no magical curses, no alien or fantasy races, just plain people who want conflicting things) then you should learn to do so as you are missing a really fundamental GMing tool.

WRONGZ! Ancient mythology used magic and such largely as the hyperbole of the mundane. You weren't just angsty and depressed. You were fucking cursed. You weren't just hurt because "she left me!" You were hurt because "She got zombified and ate my leg!" Anyway, magic and superscience and all that serve as new ways of exploring old issues. If you want human passion or any of that bullshit, you should live it in real life as opposed to playing it out in an RPG.

Quote6.  You don't have to have an extraordinary character every time, the real challenge is making an ordinary character interesting.

While that may indeed be challenging, I'm looking for other challenges. Interesting ones.

Quote7.  Playing an ordinary guy in an interesting setting captures far more sense of wonder than playing an extraordinary character in a blandly over the top setting.

Um... don't play in bland settings?

Quote8.  Much gaming described as narrativist is simple power fantasy dressed up as something deeper.  For every gamer genuinely wanting thematically powerful narratives I think there are quite a few guys who just want the power to narrate that they never lose.

Um... don't know don't care.

Quote9.  The development of rpg theory, and I do not just mean GNS, has not benefitted the overall hobby in any meaningful way.  Had none of it happened, we would still have just as many cool games today and probably fewer flamewars.

And what's so wrong with flamewars?

Quote10.  Playing a half-elf/half-giant hybrid doesn't mean your character is interesting, it just shows you aren't a good enough roleplayer to portray a credible human being.

Uh... fuck you? Kewl powerz?

QuoteThere's more, but I have to wait until they strike me.  Your turn.  Post honestly.

In no particular order...

1) Personality mechanics present a challenge to the player and do not diminish character control any more than mechanics for physical abilities do.

2) Game mechanics are only responsible for producing realistic or believable end results, not simulating the process by which they were achieved.

3) Story-telling games should not be confused with role-playing games, though the two bear considerable similarity with one another and share many elements.

I have more, too, but these are the three that leap most readily to mind (and that have not been stated by Balbinus already).

!i!

Beejazz, I'm not saying you have to agree.  What works for me won't for others.  I'm happy to be kicked on any of mine but what really interests me is what you would put yourself.

Um... kewl powerz are in no way immature. Even when spelled as such.

Good balance for me is where the players can do just about anything but can still get hurt. If the players can't get hurt it's teh suck. If the players suck at life it's teh suck. Give me carnage, property damage, and the ability to warp reality (just a little) and I'm happy. Anything else is secondary. And should remain as such.

Quote from: jrientsWho is we?  Every gamer I know enjoys explodey action movies.  We can acknowledge them as derivative and shallow without looking down on such fare.  I get kicks out of action movies, pro-wrestling, comics, and D&D.

Everything else you write seems pretty on-target to me.

Right thinking people?

Anyway, I enjoy action movies too, I love pro-wrestling to the great disgust of almost everyone I've ever mentioned that too and I like comics.

DnD I don't much care for, but there are tons of games I don't much care for so that's not too special as comments go.

But the thing is, action movies are all very well, but there are far better films out there.  Now, sometimes all I want is a decent x-men movie and that's cool, but I don't kid myself it's up there with The Third Man or something like that.

Incidentally, it is entirely fair for someone to post as a credo "Kewl powerz are fun, there is nothing adolescent about wanting to kick back and kill some shit while looking cool."  I'm not expecting people to necessarily agree with me, that's kind of the point.

What sometimes annoys me isn't people enjoying cheesy shit, I love cheesy shit on occasion, it's people thinking the cheesy shit is meaningful and deep.  I enjoyed the new LotR movies, but I don't see them as being epic in anything like the sense Lawrence of Arabia is.  Quality exists.  The fact I liked the old Teenage Mutant Hero Turtle cartoons does not blind me to the fact that they were nonetheless cheesy shit.

Quote from: BalbinusOk, this is the thread for stating your opinions clearly and without beating around the bush.  Let's not be polite, by which I don't mean let's flame each other for the sake of it (that would be a different thread really) but let's state flat out honestly what we think about aspects of gaming.

I'll start.  In no particular order:

1.  I regard the current obsession with kewl powerz and uber characters as basically immature, adolescent power gaming of the kind I grew out of many years ago.  I'm not saying it's never fun, I love Feng Shui, but for Christ's sake does it have to be so ubiquitous?  We look down on mindless Hollywood action movies as derivative crap, why make them the high point of our gaming?

2.  People should have the balls to accept a bit of challenge in their games occasionally, losing is character building.

3.  There are better ways to make stories collectively than rpgs.  Rpgs as story-building devices work, but they produce trite and obvious stories that almost nobody would ever pay for in any other context (PTA being the only exception I can think of).

4.  Fudging is cheating.

5.  History is not made better by the addition of magic.  If you can't create an interesting plot based on human passion and motivations and nothing else (no magical curses, no alien or fantasy races, just plain people who want conflicting things) then you should learn to do so as you are missing a really fundamental GMing tool.

6.  You don't have to have an extraordinary character every time, the real challenge is making an ordinary character interesting.  

7.  Playing an ordinary guy in an interesting setting captures far more sense of wonder than playing an extraordinary character in a blandly over the top setting.

8.  Much gaming described as narrativist is simple power fantasy dressed up as something deeper.  For every gamer genuinely wanting thematically powerful narratives I think there are quite a few guys who just want the power to narrate that they never lose.

9.  The development of rpg theory, and I do not just mean GNS, has not benefitted the overall hobby in any meaningful way.  Had none of it happened, we would still have just as many cool games today and probably fewer flamewars.

10.  Playing a half-elf/half-giant hybrid doesn't mean your character is interesting, it just shows you aren't a good enough roleplayer to portray a credible human being.

There's more, but I have to wait until they strike me.  Your turn.  Post honestly.

Sweet Jesus; I agree with absolutely everything you said here!

RPGPundit

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIn no particular order...

1) Personality mechanics present a challenge to the player and do not diminish character control any more than mechanics for physical abilities do.

This I strongly agree with, RPGPundit is just plain wrong on this issue.

1) Story is what happens while you're busy having fun gaming.

2)  Some people who are unhappy or disaffected with their gaming often like being unhappy or disaffected.  Thus, they create larger words, more difficult concepts, and even more difficult issues where simpler ones would suffice.

3)  98% of MySpace is comprised of middle-aged men looking for schoolgirls, middle-aged men pretending to be schoolgirls, emo kids, and retards who randomly capitalize shit.

4)  Rifts fucking rocks.  Palladium Fantasy, too.

5)  The most consistently high-quality independent game releases being put out right now are from Politically Incorrect Games.

6)  If the dice lands on the floor, it doesn't count.

7)  Flame Wars and game/genre/system/company-bashing are a hobby unto themselves.

1) RPGs are a historical category, derived from wargames

2) The methods used in Braunstein and Chainmail in those early sessions is a result of non-zero-sum game theory (real math) and the introduction of negotiation and arbitration as a resoultion mechanic

3) Those can be used for all human endeavours

4) I like it the Adventure Gaming Style

5) The hobby is differentiated enough to be incompatible with each other

6) The only force holding that back is the histrocial personal overlap

7) There are too many adventures out there to ever play through them

Traveller is my heroin: You can have all kinds of human themes without force and with maximum suspension of disbelief. And you can have Sector wide wars with starfleet battles too. And shotguns in space.

9) D&D is my methadone, because it only reinforces tactical reaction instead of strategic action nowadays

10) I appreciate Thematic gaming, but care for it as much as I care for the New Zealand Sailing Championship

11) I`m growing sick of having to read or hear about sailing championships from all over the world nowadays

12) I truly believe forge jargon has been oftentimes used to poison internet debate

13) I know that the twenty smart people at the forge don´t intended that and don`t support that.

14) Banning is stupid, childish and cliquish. It harms the banner more than the banned.

Quote from: BalbinusBeejazz, I'm not saying you have to agree.  What works for me won't for others.  I'm happy to be kicked on any of mine but what really interests me is what you would put yourself.

Yeah, if this is going to turn into a "defend your opinion" thread, I'll take a pass. I don't mind discussing what I think, but it'd be interesting to see what people post when they don't have to worry about getting bogged down into the internet equivalent of a land war in Asia over every thought they post. That is, I think it'd be interesting to see a thread where the posters of this community simply stated what they feel, so everyone else can get a handle on where their fellow posters stand. If they wish to have a discussion about the particulars, it'd be better off in a thread of its own.

Quote from: RPGPunditSweet Jesus; I agree with absolutely everything you said here!

RPGPundit

One of the things I like about this site is that although some people will object to some of that list, particularly the cool powers bit which I know is very much a minority view, overall there are more people here who understand what the hell I am talking about than anywhere else I currently post.

On the cool powers thing by the way, I wouldn't care if mine hadn't become such a minority view.  Back in the 1980s there were a ton of games that catered to my tastes, the market spoke and now there are virtually none.

Quote from: jrientsWho is we?  Every gamer I know enjoys explodey action movies.  We can acknowledge them as derivative and shallow without looking down on such fare.  I get kicks out of action movies, pro-wrestling, comics, and D&D.

Everything else you write seems pretty on-target to me.

Eh, yeah, I think, and not to put words in his mouth, but I think what he meant was the whole deal with every RPG having to be about characters being super-powerful, and particularly RPGs that try to claim to be about deep issues but really only use that as a justification for having uber-powerful characters.

Or, in other words, Exalted.  I've said it many times before: Exalted is the RPG equivalent of "pseudo-intellectual's Bravo art-porn".  
We all know a guy who acts as though he's never wanked in his life; and pretends to be stuck up about pornography, like he'd never engage in something as banal as porn, and its somehow beneath him as a human being, but he watches "Bravo" or "Showcase" or whatever the local equivalent of the "Artistic" channel is on TV, where they show supposedly "sophisticated" european movies that are supposedly about "deep issues" but are filled with the kinkiest blatantly erotic scenes; only its ok to watch these movies because they aren't "porn", they're "art".

Exalted is exactly the same thing.  Its for all the Swine that make fun of D&D for being "powergaming".
They're allowed to have characters who can blow up cities with a single swing of a ridiculously oversized sword in Exalted, because its not about "powergaming" like that cheap banal D&D game; its about "dealing with sophisticated issues about coping with great power" (as one RPGnet idiot put it once).

RPGPundit

@Cool Powers: I totally understand you. I love earning  my shit. I love my  2d6 direct to attribute Traveller But I also love blasting things to smithereens with MegaDamage weopons. It`s human nature being inconsequential.