Quote from: Planet Algol;491866Vacuum is an old idea.

Indeed. Aristotle has a fairly sophisticated argument on why it can't exist.

Personally, I am usually pretty fine with wizards possessing a fairly sophisticated understanding of science, usually up to at least Newtonianism in physics and the periodic table in chemistry. I assume they pick this up as part of learning how spells can affect the world and experimenting with magical manipulation of the real world.

Quote from: Blazing Donkey;491855:huhsign: Wow, that's pretty creative, though I would wonder if the characters would have had the background to concieve the idea...

(1) Take a 5 year old.
(2) Have them play Portal.
(3) Wait to see how long it takes them to set up an ever-falling teleport tunnel.

If anything, a pre-Newtonian understanding of gravity would actually encourage this kind of thinking. Pre-Newton, remember, people thought heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects.

Even in a world where we understand things like "air resistance", people still think pennies dropped from the top of the Empire State Building will kill people below because "bigger drop = more damage".

Quote from: Justin Alexander;492072(1) Take a 5 year old.
(2) Have them play Portal.
(3) Wait to see how long it takes them to set up an ever-falling teleport tunnel.

If anything, a pre-Newtonian understanding of gravity would actually encourage this kind of thinking. Pre-Newton, remember, people thought heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects.

You crack me up sometimes with your assumptions. Honestly, I really don't think that any character in a 12th-15th century setting would figure out how to make a mass driver using dimension door spells. I just don't believe it.

Maybe a sage or MU who had a laboratory and was able to devote many years of study to such a thing would have done experiments that lead to such a discovery. Maybe, and that's a big maybe.

But a bunch of practical thaumaturgists who are out in the field just trying to survive? Not a chance.

To me this is a clear breach of out-of-character knowlege being imparted to characters. I would not allow it in my game. -- Of course, it's not my game and the GM who is running it can do whatever they want.

So, in other words, Creative Spell use, yea, as long as the creativity is acceptably banal.

Quote from: Planet Algol;491865Trebuchets & Murder Holes.

So the characters actually spent time determining the relative velocity of a Trebuchet missile vs. the arc at which it was fired vs. the amount of imact at the target site and then did a comparative study based on the results of other Trebuchet firings, Balista firings, and Catapult firings. They just happened to have access to these siege weapons and the crews to man them and an open space in which to conduct these experiments - without risking an incident with another kingdom or power.

Then, because they are independently wealthy (and thus don't need to waste time adventuring or working a job), they found a mage who was willing to not memorize anything other than multiple Dimension Door spells and let them test their theory.

And, once they did succeed in creating a spell-based mass driver that could destroy small towns, nobody was concerned about this at all and let them be. And the towns that they did destroy were remarkably free of people who had friends and relatives in other places who might upset that by their deaths. And, further, the local and regional political figures were not at all upset about losing an entire town to a the party's actions, nor did it have any effect on the economy.

Yes, that is entirely believable.

And now, if you will liquidate all your assets and mail me a check with that sum, you can be sure that I and my fine Nigerian friends will wisely invest your money so that it will be doubled in less than six months. You can't lose!

So what do you say?

Quote from: two_fishes;492105So, in other words, Creative Spell use, yea, as long as the creativity is acceptably banal.

Not at all. But I personally (ie. Me, Blazing Donkey) do not believe that any characters could come up with such a thing on their own. If they put the work into it to test it out, maybe they could.

It sounds, though, like a classic case of someone out-of-character saying, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool to create ___________?" And then figuring out a way to do that.

If some of you want to believe that the characters could do that, more power to you.

Quote from: Blazing Donkey;491859I mean, missile weapons do more damage the closer to the target they are. For example, at long range, a arrow loses velocity. This is something they may have observed so it would seem counter-intutive for them to have somehow determined that falling distance increases impact.

Ancient warfare had archers firing from a long way off, far enough to see how deadly arrows can be when fall from high off in the sky. The ancients weren't morons, and could readily see cause and effect in their world. See also Bloody Stupid Johnson's point that the farther you fall the more it hurts. The idea that something hits harder the farther it falls is not rocket science, and relatively easy to see in the world.

GrimTooth's Traps had a Teleport Pit Trap, I'd just spring that on the players and let them figure it out...

Quote from: two_fishes;492112Ancient warfare had archers firing from a long way off, far enough to see how deadly arrows can be when fall from high off in the sky. The ancients weren't morons, and could readily see cause and effect in their world. See also Bloody Stupid Johnson's point that the farther you fall the more it hurts. The idea that something hits harder the farther it falls is not rocket science, and relatively easy to see in the world.

Your point is valid and I want to acknowlege that.

However, I still do not believe that the characters could have come up with this "mass driver" idea. Sorry; I don't buy it.

There's really nothing to argue about. We're just going to have to agree to disagree it seems.

Quote from: Blazing Donkey;492102You crack me up sometimes with your assumptions.

Whereas your assumptions ("everyone in the 12th century was more stupid than a 5 year old") just make me feel sorry for you.

What I do find hilarious, however, is the idea that anyone could believe that "the farther you fall, the more it hurts" is a principle that no one figured out until the 20th century.

The reality is that -- within the limitations of their understanding of the physical laws of the universe around them -- people have been pretty dang clever for the entirety of human history.

For example, in King Lear Shakespeare has one of his characters convince a blind man that they're standing at the top of a tall cliff (when they're actually just a few feet in the air). The blind characters jumps off to commit suicide, but of course doesn't die. If Shakespeare and his contemporaries actually believed -- as you claim they did -- that falling short distances was equivalent to falling long distances, this scene in King Lear would not exist.

So either Shakespeare is a time traveler, King Lear is a fraudulent text, or you're wrong.

QuoteI still do not believe that the characters could have come up with this "mass driver" idea. Sorry; I don't buy it.

There's really nothing to argue about. We're just going to have to agree to disagree it seems.

Actually, there is. We can't argue that you don't believe it. You obviously don't. That's not the question.

What we can argue is whether such a thing is likely or not, given our presumed baseline. We can give reasons why it is or isn't, and objectively evaluate those reasons.

Hypothetically, if one believed that characters would never build such a thing, when, by soundly reasoning from known factors, other people can show that characters probably would, more likely than not, build such a thing?

Then that is, by definition, irrational disbelief. And you can't use reason to persuade the irrational.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;492125Whereas your assumptions ("everyone in the 12th century was more stupid than a 5 year old") just make me feel sorry for you.

Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing or do you really believe that some characters just had a moment of brilliant intuition and created a just-add-water dimension door mass driver (DDMD)?

I'm just curious.

Whether it's feasable or not is beside the point and always has been. Whether it's credible or not is what I'm arguing.

If you do really believe that the characters made the DDMD, then I support you in believing it.

QuoteWhat I do find hilarious, however, is the idea that anyone could believe that "the farther you fall, the more it hurts" is a principle that no one figured out until the 20th century.

Where did I say that? -- Nowhere. Here we go with this bullshit...

QuoteThe reality is that -- within the limitations of their understanding of the physical laws of the universe around them -- people have been pretty dang clever for the entirety of human history.

For example, in King Lear Shakespeare has one of his characters convince a blind man that they're standing at the top of a tall cliff (when they're actually just a few feet in the air). The blind characters jumps off to commit suicide, but of course doesn't die. If Shakespeare and his contemporaries actually believed -- as you claim they did -- that falling short distances was equivalent to falling long distances, this scene in King Lear would not exist.

So either Shakespeare is a time traveler, King Lear is a fraudulent text, or you're wrong.

Nice Strawman you've got there.

I never made any sort of blanket generalization about what people in any time period could or could not know.

What I actually said was that I do not believe that characters in a 12th-15th century setting could have concieved the idea of a "mass driver".

I didn't say it was "absolutely impossible"; I said I didn't believe it.

Next time you feel like exercising your creative writing abilities, try channeling it into your game instead of making up silly strawman arguments.

I don't think they're saying that people in the 12th-15th century could conceive of a mass-driver.

They're saying they could conceive of a "Catelepult" or a "Telecannon".

They have tools, they use those tools to create versions of things they already know work, but work better. Doesn't seem unbelievable.

Quote from: Blazing Donkey;492129Next time you feel like exercising your creative writing abilities, try channeling it into your game instead of making up silly strawman arguments.

(Emphasis mine) Ok, what's this about ? This is not the first time I have read this when someone is going a couple of rounds with Justin. Is this a blogsphere thing or something ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Kaldric;492126Hypothetically, if one believed that characters would never build such a thing, when, by soundly reasoning from known factors, other people can show that characters probably would, more likely than not, build such a thing?

[Of all the ridiculous debates I've been in online, this one wins hands down.]

Here's what seems more likely to me:

The players & GM, who have no doubt seen a lot of sci-fi movies & read a lot of sci-fi books, came up with the idea out of character to create this weapon.

Somebody thought about it and reasoned that you could use several dimension door spells to create a mass driver.

They did and the GM let them. End of story.

Now, even if every single user on this forum thinks that this is plausible, I do not, nor have I heard a convincing argument that it is.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it plausible? I don't think so.

I think it's far more plausable that a bunch of RPG geeks (which would include me) said, "Hey man, wouldn't it be cool to make one of these?"