Quote from: daniel_ream;492243Most GMs that allow "creative spell use", I get the feeling they're not that interested in a consistent feel for their campaign world.

Or at least not obsessed with consistency to the point of neglecting whatever they think is fun about the game they're playing.

Which is clearly my case, and trust me, you may ask around : I'm not the kind of DM who doesn't "do" consistency. I kind of know what I'm talking about on both sides of the equation here, as I suspect many other people participating to this conversation are themselves.

Part of D&D's fun to me and most people I've played with over the years is however in the way you deal with obstacles, which appeals generally more to the players' skills rather than their characters' (I could go on a long tangent from there to explain how I find that relying more and more on character skill to deal with D&D's themes is actually completely counterproductive to the whole experience, but I'll refrain, since I don't have that much time to go into it).

From there, I find it is much better for the game overall to allow players to deal with said obstacles creatively, on their own merits, rather than just negate stuff or say "no" because of some weird concept of whatever one thinks "consistency" ought to mean for the game's world (not the other way around), especially when drawing parallels between real world medieval times and a fantasy universe that never was. That is ipso facto the kind of reasoning which, to me, is doomed to abject, and oft comical, failure.

Quote from: Imperator;492200I would hesitate to decide that a character cannot have an idea, given that most scientific progress is based on people having that kind of ideas.

I really think some of you are misunderstanding me here. I'm not saying that its impossible for a character to have an idea.

What I am saying is that the very concept of a "mass driver" is not likely something that a character in a medieval fantasy setting would come up with.

I'm sorry if this bothers people, but I simply do not believe that characters in that setting would have conceptualized such a thing. Further, I can't believe this is still be argued.

Look. TO ALL: If you believe that these characters is this guy's campaign could have invented this weapon, good for you. You are welcome to believe whatever you want. I'm not saying that anybody who believes this is "wrong" or "bad" or whatever. I personally don't believe the characters could've come up with it and I wouldn't allow it in my game.

But if did allow it, you can bet that this group would have a substancial bounty on their head (by several groups, both legitimate & criminal) to be be brought in alive so that someone could find out how they managed to accomplish this. Then they would most likely be killed so that nobody else could get the secret. -- In other words, they would be hunted to the ends of the earth and never know a day's peace. It's also very likely that the gods themselves would strike them down.

But I didn't hear any of that in the post of the guy who claimed his players invented it.

I have a real problem with players inventing some super weapon that nobody can top. Sounds like a hack-n-slash campaign. I wouldn't allow it in my campaign, not only because I don't believe they could've invented it, but also because it would dramatically unballance the game.

It's like playing Half-Life or Fallout 3 in God mode. What's the point?

Quote from: Blazing Donkey;492256But if did allow it, you can bet that this group would have a substancial bounty on their head (by several groups, both legitimate & criminal) to be be brought in alive so that someone could find out how they managed to accomplish this. Then they would most likely be killed so that nobody else could get the secret. -- In other words, they would be hunted to the ends of the earth and never know a day's peace. It's also very likely that the gods themselves would strike them down.

Yes, yes. You're a narrow-minded, ignorant jerk that no one would ever want to play with. What's your point? How is this supposed to be supporting your thesis that something a 5 year old can figure out when given imaginary teleportation technology wouldn't be figured out by learned men and women in a world where teleportation has been a reality for hundreds or thousands of years?

Quote from: Kaldric;492205Blazing Donkey: Let me see if I can illustrate where I'm coming from.

Fair enough.

QuotePlayer: I'm going to use two sets of ring gates to set up a teleportation catapult!
GM: No, that's a modern notion, it's just a mass driver, your character wouldn't know what a mass driver is.

Here's the original post:

The wackiest thing players ever wanted to do in a game I ran was use a Dimension Door spell as a mass driver, putting the gates above each other and cycling a boulder through at ever-increasing velocity. Fortunately for the Forgotten Realms,they couldn't quite figure out how to make a vacuum so the boulders could break terminal velocity, or get the power to last long enough with the psionicist they had. They weren't too far off destroying small cities by crashing rocks into them at near-lightspeed, though.

Key terms: mass driver, vacuum, terminal velocity, light-speed.

I've played in a lot of RPGs and I've never, ever heard these words uttered in a fantasy setting. Never. Not once.

If it was a high-tech setting like Rifts, Robotech, Star Frontiers, Traveler, or even Cthulhu, I wouldn't have a problem. But a fantasy setting? No way.

I'm all for players using spells in innovative way, but I have to draw the line when a player takes their 2011 CE real world knowledge and imparts it to their Iron Age character.

QuotePlayer: I'm going to cast fly on myself, and then, when I'm up in the air, I'm going to light lanterns and drop them on the monsters.
GM: No, that's a modern notion, it's a plane dropping napalm, your character wouldn't know what a bomber plane is.

That's a false analogy. Greek fire.

QuotePlayer: I'm going to use the Sending ring to ask the mage on the Spelljammer to Teleport me to the ship.
GM: No, that's just like Star Trek. Might as well say "Beam me up, Scotty". Your character has never seen Star Trek, so you can't do it.

Another false analogy.

Quote from: Blazing Donkey;492256I have a real problem with players inventing some super weapon that nobody can top. Sounds like a hack-n-slash campaign.

I think that's your real problem right there. Never mind "consistency" and all that jazz. You're concerned about players actually having ideas that will make them "win". A problem which in fact does not exist if you stay cool in your head as a DM and just come up with natural consequences to the players' actions, such as, indeed, groups and factions hearing about this magical victory of theirs and being interested in their discoveries to the point of spying on them and/or hunting them down to discover their "secret". That's just one possibility, amongst many, many others that will take the campaign in some new, completely unplanned directions - which is the bread and butter of tabletop role playing games.

You as a DM are basically getting your panties in a knot and negating the players' creativity because you're afraid of what they're doing. It's bad, mate. Bad for your DMing skills, bad for the campaign, bad for everyone's enjoyment of the game. You should relax, and maybe try to think of contingency plans when unexpected stuff comes up instead of making up excuses about "game world consistency" to say "no" to your players. Just a suggestion.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;492261Yes, yes. You're a narrow-minded, ignorant jerk that no one would ever want to play with.

Some day you'll constuct an argument that's not based on a logical fallacy and it will probably wither every tree on earth. Ad Hominem, anyone?

QuoteWhat's your point?

My point is I do not believe that characters in a medieval fantasy setting could have conceptualized a "mass driver". It's an opinion. Perhaps you've heard the term? It has to do with being an freethinking individual. You see, Justin, I get to determine what I personally believe is credible and what I do not believe is credible.

Some people believe in reincarnation. Some believe in ghosts. Some believe in angels. Some believe in karma. -- I don't believe in any of these things, but I don't go out of my way to confront those who do. What I do believe is that we all have the right to believe whatever we want.

But there are some people who can't stand it when someone disagrees with their personal viewpoint. If you're one of these, then perhaps you should ignore or even block my posts. Others here disagree with me, but they've been civilized about it. It would be nice if you could do the same.

QuoteHow is this supposed to be supporting your thesis that something a 5 year old can figure out when given imaginary teleportation technology wouldn't be figured out by learned men and women in a world where teleportation has been a reality for hundreds or thousands of years?

That's not my thesis; I never posted anything like it. Please, please quit making these strawman arguments. If you're incapable of reading my actual posts, I can reccomend several online resources for those who are challenged in basic reading comprehension.

Have a nice day.

Quote from: Benoist;492263I think that's your real problem right there.

Interesting.

QuoteNever mind "consistency" and all that jazz. You're concerned about players actually having ideas that will make them "win".

Not at all. First, I don't conceptualize gaming in terms of "winning" to begin with. Second, I've never had a problem like this in any of my games. My players are very reasonable. I don't think it would occur to any of them to do this in the first place - the players that is. It never has and I've seen people come up with all kinds of clever and innovative spell use.

QuoteA problem which in fact does not exist of you stay cool in your head as a DM and just come up with natural consequences to the players' actions, such as, indeed, groups and factions hearing about this magical victory of theirs and being interested in their discoveries to the point of spying on them and/or hunting them down to discover their "secret".

I agree completely with that.

QuoteThat's just one possibility, amongst many, many others that will take the campaign in some new, completely unplanned directions - which is the bread and butter of tabletop role playing games.

No argument there.

QuoteYou as a DM are basically getting your panties in a knot and negating the players' creativity because you're afraid of what they're doing. It's bad, mate. Bad for your DMing skills, bad for the campaign, bad for everyone's enjoyment of the game. You should relax, and maybe try to think of contingency plans when unexpected stuff comes up instead of making up excuses about "game world consistency" to say "no" to your players. Just a suggestion.

-chuckle- I'm not getting upset about anyting that has actually happened. This whole argument (if that's what is) is completely hypothetical. It has never happened. If it did happen, I'd probably say, "Are you sure your character has the knowlege of that?" -- If the player could argue rationally why they did, I'd allow it.

There are thousands, if not millions, of ways that players can use spells in innovative ways. This is one (01) way that I would not allow in my game.

I hate to put it this way but if you don't like it or don't agree, too bad. Don't play in my game. Simple as that. Right now, I've got a group of four players who I shared this whole thing with and they thought it was hilarious and absurd that anybody was arguing about it. --As if the collective minds on therpgsite dot com had any say whatsoever in someone else's game.

I'm not qualified to psychoanalyse the rest of you, nor are you to do so to me. We disagree on something. So be it.

Quote from: Blazing Donkey;492271If the player could argue rationally why they did, I'd allow it.

If the player was making the exact same reasoning Justin just did comparing the 5-year-old discovering the principle of portals with his character being a 70-year-old wizard who studied teleport spells and dweomers long enough to figure that one out, would you allow it?

I wouldn't simply because Teleport and Dimension Door spells don't work like that.

Quote from: daniel_ream;492279I wouldn't simply because Teleport and Dimension Door spells don't work like that.

You really think the studies of a wizard are not as much about the way spells work the way they do and why than their actual modus operandi? I don't believe so at all. If that was the case, no other spells would ever be created. There would be no such thing as a magic item, a mythal, Tenser's floating disk, Portable holes, Bags of holding... whatever the case may be. Or these would have all been invented for themselves, from scratch, without any use of logic or reason, deductions from particular theories, principles of magic and so on. Have you done actual studies of subjects, any subject really, which uses your faculty of deduction in your life? Come on, you seem to be at least a university graduate. I refuse to believe you don't know anything about concepts like analogy, lateral thinking, associations and the like.

I mean. Seriously. Give me a break.

I refuse to believe you are that narrow-minded.

Especially when you're dealing with a pseudo-medieval society. IRL medieval society's conceptual thought is most sharply distinguished from modern conceptual thinking by the ubiquitous use of analogical reasoning in the former.

Quote from: Benoist;492275If the player was making the exact same reasoning Justin just did comparing the 5-year-old discovering the principle of portals with his character being a 70-year-old wizard who studied teleport spells and dweomers long enough to figure that one out, would you allow it?

If the character had actually done in-game a study of the subject and declared that they were trying to unlock information about teleport technology (so to speak), then I would think it might be possible for them to indeed figure something like this out.

But not just because they said they could.

But this is all irrelevent anyways, because, as Daniel Ream points out, that's not how the spells work to begin with:

Dimension Door (Alteration)

"By means of a dimension door spell, the magic-user instantly transfers himself or herself up to 3" distance per level of experience.  This special form of teleportation allows for no error, and the magic-user always arrives at exactly the spot desired -- whether by simply visualizing the area (within the spell transfer distance, of course) or by stating direction such as '30 inches straight downwards' or 'upwards to the northwest, 45 degree angle, 42 inches'." -- 1st Ed PH, pg 76

A dimension door is not a 'passageway' or a 'portal', nor does it allow for non-living matter (other than what one carries) to be sent by itself.

So even if we buy the notion that the characters came up with the idea, they couldn't do it anyways because that's not how the spell works.

Quote from: daniel_ream;492279I wouldn't simply because Teleport and Dimension Door spells don't work like that.

I was saving that up, but you let the cat out of the bag.

Quote from: Blazing Donkey;492284If the character had actually done in-game a study of the subject and declared that they were trying to unlock information about teleport technology (so to speak), then I would think it might be possible for them to indeed figure something like this out.

But not just because they said they could.

Then anything you possibly do has to have to do with something you actually did "on camera", in the game proper. Are the characters starting at their actual birth in your game? Did the wizard character actually learn about the principles of magic live in the game? If not, I cannot come up with some piece of background in the game that would explain that yes, I, Osthentilius, have actually experimented with my master on teleport spells, bags of holding, portable holes and related topics, and that's even why I still have this mechanical finger on my hand instead of my live one?

If I can't do anything like that, and everything has to happen live for you to be okay with it, I wouldn't enjoy playing with you, no. I think many people would have problems with that over the long haul, actually. That's an imagination killer to me, in any case.

Quote from: Blazing Donkey;492285I was saving that up, but you let the cat out of the bag.

Which I just answered to, thank you very much. That's not a full-proof argument, far from it.