WotC has no one left who could even try fix things, even if they wanted.
There you go - get rebuilding that D&D garbage as it is these years. ;)
Crawford and Perkin's quit, oh really? It has all the signs of a corporate lay off of executives who greatly failed to deliver.
When the fuck is Hasbro going to realize there is no new customer, those red fucks don't have jobs they only want to beat the fuck out of conservative brown people and kill CEO's of companies like Hasbro.
Go Woke, and Go Broke.
Crawford couldn't fix 5e that he helped create.
He was absolutely notorious for giving the worst advice possible for 5e. The running gag was to do the exact opposite of whatever his advice was.
wotc losing him was probably a blessing. And he's likely going to be a blight on whomever he latches onto next.
Eventually the OSR will latch its claws into 5e and we will end up with JeffroCrawfordian elitist halfwits.
I think you need to recheck your math. It being zero now that Crawford left implies that it was in the negatives before that event. Admittedly, that might be correct.
I still think Hasbro is getting ready to sell off WOTC, or at least some of the IP
the challenges Hasbro has been running into include:
1. Declining sales
2. Underperforming film
3. Failure of the VTT and connected-projects (monetizing, micro-transactions, etc.)
4. Brand damage: 5E has become a punchline among many gamers, and certainly among older gamers--who spend money
The IP is still quite valuable, but as long as WOTC owns it, that value will diminish
The executives at Hasbro probably paid WOTC a visit and saw blue-haired, entitled brats running the office, lack of organization and accountability, poor focus, etc. and said "we need to clean this up"
Hasbro simply isn't a TTRPG company, doesn't know how to navigate the VTT video game space, and doesn't know how to market D&D. The company makes games and toys for young people, and D&D is a hobby for a select audience of barely-middle-class, older gamers (teachers, baristas, graduate students, low-level office workers ...)
yes, some young people play D&D, but they are fickle, and will move on to the next distraction very quickly. Stranger Things is old news now, and Critical Roll is winding down.
Zero? They were zero years ago. They hit -10. C'mon man, that was easy. It was right there.
Heh. WOTC will never learn
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 16, 2025, 10:40:57 AMI still think Hasbro is getting ready to sell off WOTC, or at least some of the IP
the challenges Hasbro has been running into include:
1. Declining sales
2. Underperforming film
3. Failure of the VTT and connected-projects (monetizing, micro-transactions, etc.)
4. Brand damage: 5E has become a punchline among many gamers, and certainly among older gamers--who spend money
The IP is still quite valuable, but as long as WOTC owns it, that value will diminish
The executives at Hasbro probably paid WOTC a visit and saw blue-haired, entitled brats running the office, lack of organization and accountability, poor focus, etc. and said "we need to clean this up"
Hasbro simply isn't a TTRPG company, doesn't know how to navigate the VTT video game space, and doesn't know how to market D&D. The company makes games and toys for young people, and D&D is a hobby for a select audience of barely-middle-class, older gamers (teachers, baristas, graduate students, low-level office workers ...)
yes, some young people play D&D, but they are fickle, and will move on to the next distraction very quickly. Stranger Things is old news now, and Critical Roll is winding down.
Very, very interesting. Lots of companies and even the American government is downsizing right now so yeah, that makes sense. They're gonna dump all the woke on their asses and you can't help but feel a little bad for them.
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 16, 2025, 10:40:57 AMI still think Hasbro is getting ready to sell off WOTC, or at least some of the IP
Any thoughts on who might be in a position to buy WOTC?
Quote from: Ruprecht on April 16, 2025, 04:37:28 PMQuote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 16, 2025, 10:40:57 AMI still think Hasbro is getting ready to sell off WOTC, or at least some of the IP
Any thoughts on who might be in a position to buy WOTC?
My hunch is "no one."
If the 5e fans are lucky, Hasbro will keep D&DBeyond running so long as it's profitable and keep some set of core books (unfortunately probably the 2024 version) available in the same way there's always Monopoly on the shelves.
But beyond that, they'll probably just let it die and maybe use the IP/trademarks to brand something else (i.e. action figures or a board game) down the line.
Or they'll license it out to third parties the way they're doing with their other properties (most Transformers aren't made directly by Hasbro anymore, but by various licensees selling effectively models/statuettes to adult collectors).
In the latter case, as demonstrated by other RPGs based on IP licenses, expect short edition runs each time a new licensee signs up, but then has to end the run because they can't keep up with the fees (or Hasbro bumps it at renegotiation to the point it's no longer profitable to continue) and then it sits fallow for a few years until someone else gives it a go with their own edition.
>paizo buys wotc
Lol while poetic, Paizo would probably double down on every bad political idea.
Granted, they'd probably make a better game at least, but I dunno.
One of the things Paizo did that I have huge respect for was their ORC license. I'm less thrilled about all the renames to walk away from OGL things, but if you want to put stuff under your own license you probably have to do something like that.
Either way, Paizo has their own serious modern RPG contender, a legit 5e competitor for those who are into that sort of thing.
I don't really think we'll get anything hilarious like WotC being spun off to some international conglomerate, or the D&D rights being bought by some big game company (that might just mostly want to make video games with it). I mean we could- I wouldn't be SHOCKED if it happened- I just don't think there's enough evidence to gloat that much.
Still, it's good vibes in here.
Quote from: D-ko on April 17, 2025, 03:49:08 AM>paizo buys wotc
Or, or...here me out on this...Troll Lord Games.
TLG buys out the game rights to D&D, completely puts the Woke edition into the garbage, and rebrands C&C as D&D.
Wouldn't that be karma?
I mean, it will never happen, but a guy can dream...
Quote from: blackstone on April 17, 2025, 08:23:45 AMQuote from: D-ko on April 17, 2025, 03:49:08 AM>paizo buys wotc
Or, or...here me out on this...Troll Lord Games.
TLG buys out the game rights to D&D, completely puts the Woke edition into the garbage, and rebrands C&C as D&D.
Wouldn't that be karma?
I mean, it will never happen, but a guy can dream...
The promised land glimpsed from the mountain top...
Quote from: Ruprecht on April 16, 2025, 04:37:28 PMQuote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 16, 2025, 10:40:57 AMI still think Hasbro is getting ready to sell off WOTC, or at least some of the IP
Any thoughts on who might be in a position to buy WOTC?
One dark horse candidate would be Osprey Publishing
They are already deeply involved in the TTRPG space, have an excellent team of authors and content creators, are diversified into other areas of publishing, and can produce at-scale. Osprey isn't amateur hour like Paizo or these other knock-off TTRPG companies.
They wouldn't purchase electronic assets (the VTT stuff), only the basic IP. They would need to team up with some venture capital to buy D&D
MTG would probably stay with Hasbro, or be sold to someone else.
Another candidate would be Free League, but I am not sure they have the money or resources
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 15, 2025, 06:45:31 PMCrawford and Perkin's quit, oh really? It has all the signs of a corporate lay off of executives who greatly failed to deliver.
When the fuck is Hasbro going to realize there is no new customer, those red fucks don't have jobs they only want to beat the fuck out of conservative brown people and kill CEO's of companies like Hasbro.
Damn. Direct but true.
Quote from: Ruprecht on April 16, 2025, 04:37:28 PMQuote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 16, 2025, 10:40:57 AMI still think Hasbro is getting ready to sell off WOTC, or at least some of the IP
Any thoughts on who might be in a position to buy WOTC?
To quote Elon Musk from last year:
QuoteHow much is Hasbro?
He's certainly got the money. But on the other hand, he's so shy and retiring, and likes to avoid the culture war.
Maybe he can just buy Dark Sun only instead... :)
Quote from: RNGm on April 17, 2025, 03:41:08 PMMaybe he can just buy Dark Sun only instead... :)
Crawford's Dark Sun would have as much grit and story telling as a very special episode of Muppet Babies on diaper rash.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 17, 2025, 04:01:40 PMQuote from: RNGm on April 17, 2025, 03:41:08 PMMaybe he can just buy Dark Sun only instead... :)
Crawford's Dark Sun would have as much grit and story telling as a very special episode of Muppet Babies on diaper rash.
I was referring to Elon Musk who could then just make it public domain.
Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 17, 2025, 10:29:56 AMMTG would probably stay with Hasbro, or be sold to someone else.
There is no point in buying WotC without both. MtG money funds the rest of it, and allows you to build the D&D audience.
To be blunt, there is absolutely no point in Hasbro selling WotC unless they are way far into bankruptcy and literally will cease to be soon. Hasbro has been in a deep septic tank since their Star Wars Sequel Trilogy toys started rotting on shelves, but MTG has continued to be a major earner.
At the moment, Hasbro seems bent on strip-mining the MTG and D&D IPs for whatever they can get to keep the rest of the machinery afloat. That would be a good decision if they had plans for how to keep the rest of the business afloat, but I have seen zero evidence to that effect. I think Hasbro will continue down this path until it breaks, and that means that their only remaining IPs will be completely strip-mined of all value and customer good will before bankruptcy. Zero dollars may literally be a good price because it would have to go on hiatus the instant you bought it to let customer ire cool down.
I will be honest: I have plenty of ideas for how you could handle Magic: The Gathering after being sold off. It would not be as profitable as it is for Hasbro right now, but Hasbro is also giving WotC marching orders to be 1000% predatory.
But D&D?
I am starting to think that once D&D lapses into proper unprofitability, D&D will probably need to be curtain-called for good. The indie RPG and OSR spaces are already starting to running circles around it, and this will take off in earnest if D&D stumbles. What are you actually going to do with D&D which is both faithful to being D&D and which an OSR game can't already do as well or better? Not much.
Once the D&D playerbase figures that out, the IP is dead. This isn't even something you can go on hiatus to fix, because relaunching D&D 7E in 2054 will have many of the exact same big picture problems 5.5 did in 2024. The D&D IP could pass from owner to owner a dozen times and never escape this cycle to reclaim market dominance.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 17, 2025, 05:22:43 PMQuote from: MerrillWeathermay on April 17, 2025, 10:29:56 AMMTG would probably stay with Hasbro, or be sold to someone else.
There is no point in buying WotC without both. MtG money funds the rest of it, and allows you to build the D&D audience.
true, but Hasbro never even wanted the D&D TTRG --they wanted MTG.
they might be willing to sell off D&D and retain the CCG --and the TTRPG still has value
Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on April 17, 2025, 09:49:46 AMQuote from: blackstone on April 17, 2025, 08:23:45 AMQuote from: D-ko on April 17, 2025, 03:49:08 AM>paizo buys wotc
Or, or...here me out on this...Troll Lord Games.
TLG buys out the game rights to D&D, completely puts the Woke edition into the garbage, and rebrands C&C as D&D.
Wouldn't that be karma?
I mean, it will never happen, but a guy can dream...
The promised land glimpsed from the mountain top...
Or Goodman Games, and Dungeon Crawl Classics!!! Tell all the sissies in the TTRPG universe, to hold on to their jewels!!!
If the wrong person buys D&D maybe somebody can sue for antitrust laws huh
Today, in celebration of Crawford getting the boot I announced my return to 5e for first time in a year, and first new 5e campaign in a good while - 2014 rules ofc. Running Under Ilefarn from 1987, converted to 5e. 😎
Quote from: D-ko on April 16, 2025, 01:07:44 PMHeh. WOTC will never learn
Oh they learn allright. Just the exact opposite of what any sane company or human being would learn.
Though to be fair. wotc actually did learn that oversaturation with supplements was a bad thing and kept 5e on a relatively slow burn through most of its run. About 1-2 supplements per year. Only three real rules supplements over the whole run and a bunch of mini additions squirreled away in modules and the monster books and even a few setting books.
Greg Bilsland just returned to WOTC as Executive Producer of Dungeons & Dragons.
James Wyatt just got a promotion too in the D&D team (I think he's Senior Designer now?)
Looks like Bilsland and Wyatt are the new Perkins and Crawford. Both have a lot of D&D experience too.
Quote from: Fheredin on April 17, 2025, 05:56:20 PMTo be blunt, there is absolutely no point in Hasbro selling WotC unless they are way far into bankruptcy and literally will cease to be soon. Hasbro has been in a deep septic tank since their Star Wars Sequel Trilogy toys started rotting on shelves, but MTG has continued to be a major earner.
At the moment, Hasbro seems bent on strip-mining the MTG and D&D IPs for whatever they can get to keep the rest of the machinery afloat. That would be a good decision if they had plans for how to keep the rest of the business afloat, but I have seen zero evidence to that effect. I think Hasbro will continue down this path until it breaks, and that means that their only remaining IPs will be completely strip-mined of all value and customer good will before bankruptcy. Zero dollars may literally be a good price because it would have to go on hiatus the instant you bought it to let customer ire cool down.
I will be honest: I have plenty of ideas for how you could handle Magic: The Gathering after being sold off. It would not be as profitable as it is for Hasbro right now, but Hasbro is also giving WotC marching orders to be 1000% predatory.
But D&D?
I am starting to think that once D&D lapses into proper unprofitability, D&D will probably need to be curtain-called for good. The indie RPG and OSR spaces are already starting to running circles around it, and this will take off in earnest if D&D stumbles. What are you actually going to do with D&D which is both faithful to being D&D and which an OSR game can't already do as well or better? Not much.
Once the D&D playerbase figures that out, the IP is dead. This isn't even something you can go on hiatus to fix, because relaunching D&D 7E in 2054 will have many of the exact same big picture problems 5.5 did in 2024. The D&D IP could pass from owner to owner a dozen times and never escape this cycle to reclaim market dominance.
5E bought in:
Advantage Mechanic
Spell Slots
Bounded Accuracy
The three were new concepts to D&D. All it takes is for someone to have a few good ideas, bring them into D&D for a new edition and it will sell as good as 5E.
That being said, Hasbro has created brand damage for D&D close to Disney Star Wars level of damage. Hasbro will not meet a 5E level of sales if it has Hasbro's name. Hasbro should license out D&D for a decade and let someone else fix their mess.
Wyatt's approach in 4e was the exact opposite of Crawford in 5e. At the time I thought he went way overboard with "DnD is about killing horrible monsters, not traipsing through fairy rings talking with the little people" - but with the game in need of a severe course correction this may be a good sign. Certainly the world building and tone in 4e was very good, the problem was the endless slog of the combat system.
And now the CEO of Steve Jackson Games has quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ohs0Gb0rIY.
Coincidence, or a theme for 2025?
Quote from: Krazz on April 18, 2025, 05:08:40 PMAnd now the CEO of Steve Jackson Games has quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ohs0Gb0rIY.
Coincidence, or a theme for 2025?
hilarious video
"Jay Dragon" Steve's new transgender head of game design
Jackson says he didn't expect this year to be good for business--but still felt he needed to make political and ideological pronouncements on social media and alienate customers
wasn't he one of the clowns who signed the "gamers4harris" petition?
while his company has made some decent games in the last few decades (car wars, munchkin, some of the dice games), he has had a lot of failures as well, and I don't think GURPs ever went anywhere
I'll give him a few more years before he closes down
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on April 18, 2025, 04:48:36 PM5E bought in:
Advantage Mechanic
Spell Slots
Bounded Accuracy
The three were new concepts to D&D. All it takes is for someone to have a few good ideas, bring them into D&D for a new edition and it will sell as good as 5E.
That being said, Hasbro has created brand damage for D&D close to Disney Star Wars level of damage. Hasbro will not meet a 5E level of sales if it has Hasbro's name. Hasbro should license out D&D for a decade and let someone else fix their mess.
I don't think you actually understand the issue. From the point of view of a D&D player moving from 4E to 5E, these are a big deal, but from the point of view of a player coming back to D&D from OSR, they are significantly less impressive. These innovations are almost worthless coming in from the larger indie RPG scene outside of OSR. And more to the point, the thing with innovation is that it becomes more difficult each time you do it because you can't do the same innovation twice.
This combination of players getting exposed to indie or OSR games and innovation getting more difficult means that at best, there's probably only one good edition of D&D left. However, the way it's being managed by WotC makes me think they believe there are zero good editions of D&D left. If you wanted to innovate, you would keep your hands on your most experienced talent, so the fact they have had several notable departures tells you that WotC probably does not intend to put much effort into innovating D&D.
The only option that's left is a new genius employee. I will believe it when I see it.
Don't worry. I can fix DND. I have a plan.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 16, 2025, 08:05:30 AMI think you need to recheck your math. It being zero now that Crawford left implies that it was in the negatives before that event. Admittedly, that might be correct.
Well played, sir!