Besides the entry under Shipsboat in Classic, I´ve never found any rules for how to handle a crash or emergency landing in Traveller (I´ve got, Classic and Mongoose. I´ve read T4 and cant recall seeing any there either).
Looking through my notes find a vague houserule that says "Emergency landing 1Dx10% damaged, Crash (1D+6)x10% damaged". Percentage is supposed to be a guide to how much of the ship is destroyed. I´ve only refereed 4-5 sessions, and nobody ever crashed a spaceship, so I´m not sure how I would handle it.
Are there any rules for ship/crew damage in crashes/emergency landings, that could be used with Classic or Mongoose?
I'm not aware of any for Classic, but you could easily just use the Situation Throw (2D6, 2 is trivial, 12 is catastrophic) to gauge how serious a crash it is.
Quote from: rhialto;1030533I'm not aware of any for Classic, but you could easily just use the Situation Throw (2D6, 2 is trivial, 12 is catastrophic) to gauge how serious a crash it is.
Thats usually what I do when I havent got a clue - in any system.
I wasnt aware that the rule had a name.
I do not recall any in any of the editions I remember (barring ports like GURPS:Traveller which would use the GURPS Vehicle rules). T5.09 or whatever they are on now undoubtedly has crash rules (it has everything else).
I wouldn't worry about the official rules anyways. I would say 'what kind of crashes do you want?' In the real world, 90%+ of airline crashes are minor 'fender bender' type things like the plane running off the runway (and not flipping, etc.). That's why the conventional wisdom joke about the seatbelts only being there to keep your body in your seat to aid in identifying your body is fiction. But that kind of crash barely needs rules. Do you want to do that, or the more conventional fiction of airplane crashes varying between 'craft ripped in half, survivors debate eating the dead while freezing on mountainside' and 'everything but one child's doll being smithereened or burned to ash?'
Basicly I want to model the classic SF-stuff: The ship gets shot down or crippled, and the crew is forced to an emergency landing.
I would set a difficulty to the pilot-roll.
Success = Emergency landing (crew most likley alive, and ship possible to repair).
Failure = Crash (probably injuries, maybe deaths if not in safetybelts etc, and ship badly damaged or destroyed).
Quote from: zx81;1030522Are there any rules for ship/crew damage in crashes/emergency landings, that could be used with Classic or Mongoose?
In Classic
Traveller the Referee and the Players just talk it out. Or, if the Referee feels like he needs to, he creates a specific Situation Throw on the spot, applying any DMs from skill/characteristics/tools/and so on as seems appropriate.
This loose, Referee driven style is the rule for Classic
Traveller.
Here's a link to a recent blog post (http://www.jamesthegeek.com/announcements/generalmusingsonmarcmillerandtraveller) from a player who was in Marc Miller's Classic
Traveller game at the recent Gary Con. Miller hung out afterward and answered a bunch of questions. Miller is clear about how he runs his game... and it is very much Old School and it is very much as the rules for original
Traveller were written.
Here's a post on my blog about Situation Throws (https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/2017/11/14/traveller-what-the-traveller-adventure-had-to-say-about-throws-in-classic-traveller/) and the passage from
The Traveller Adventure that discusses them at length. And here is further discussion about when to make Situation Throws (https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/2018/01/24/classic-traveller-what-the-traveller-adventure-says-about-the-need-to-make-situation-throws/) and setting the Throw value (https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/2018/02/15/classic-traveller-what-the-traveller-adventure-had-to-say-about-situation-throws-randomized-situation-numbers/).
Using CT or MgT1E, I'd roll a number of hits equal to how much the pilot botched their landing roll by and apply that to the damage chart. Example, Beowolf Schaeffer is drunk and chain smoking with a cigarette in each foot while trying to land a scout/courier - he misses his roll by 3 points (rolled a 5 when he needed an 8), so you roll three times on the damage location chart (for MgT 1E damage, use the thrust rating of the ship as the damage points caused).
That's just off of the top of my head.
Well, to avoid crashing, pilot would have to make a pilot roll, with a penalty DM to that roll that accurately describes the damaged state of the Maneuver Drives, basically a -1 DM for every hit the maneuver drives have taken prior to the crash... Success would be setting down or landing without incurring any additional damage over what the ship has already taken.
For your bog standard crash, I'd require a 2d6 roll to determine the number of additional hits the starship has taken while plowing down into a field/mountain/ocean somewhere... If any of the hits occur in a section the players happen to be strapped in at during the crash landing, then the players would have to roll less than their END to avoid being hurt with a failure meaning they immediately take 2d6 hits (remember, they should be in a Vacc Suit, so some damage would be mitigated by the suit).
For an orbital re-entry crash, i'd have the pilot who failed their piloting check roll 4d6 to determine the number of additional hits the Starship takes as it crash lands, with the same procedure being required to determine whether the pilot/passengers are injured.
One of my favorite sequences depicting this was the opening sequence from Pitch Black when the 1,000t Starship broke up while re-entering the atmosphere of the unexplored desert planet.
Quote from: jeff37923;1030606Example, Beowolf Schaeffer is drunk and chain smoking with a cigarette in each foot while trying to land a scout/courier
So, pretty much "Same old same old" with Bey?
So basicly, just add this under Pilot skill, page 19, book 1:
"Example: Landing a scoutship while drunk and chain smoking, with a cigarette in each foot - roll 8+ (DMs must be decided by the referee as necessary)."
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030632So, pretty much "Same old same old" with Bey?
Quote from: zx81;1030872So basicly, just add this under Pilot skill, page 19, book 1:
"Example: Landing a scoutship while drunk and chain smoking, with a cigarette in each foot - roll 8+ (DMs must be decided by the referee as necessary)."
I always thought that Bey was an "Eight hours from bottle to throttle." kind of guy, or "Eight minutes in autodoc from bottle to throttle."
Quote from: jeff37923;1030606Using CT or MgT1E, I'd roll a number of hits equal to how much the pilot botched their landing roll by and apply that to the damage chart.
I really like this.
Ships don't survive crashes in my games. See Pitch Black and Gravity for how I introduce new players (learning Traveller's mechanic) to desert worlds.
Quote from: jeff37923;1030606Using CT or MgT1E, I'd roll a number of hits equal to how much the pilot botched their landing roll by and apply that to the damage chart.
That's what I do too. I love the versatility of the damage charts for stuff like this.
Also double the hits if the ship isn't streamlined.
I use that for when wrecks are found lying on planets and PCs wonder about how to strip or salvage it.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1030969Ships don't survive crashes in my games. See Pitch Black and Gravity for how I introduce new players (learning Traveller's mechanic) to desert worlds.
New Player Unfamiliar with Traveller Rules and Playing for the First Time - "So the ship is damaged and I am going to try to land it. Is it even possible? What do I need to roll?"
Shawn Driscoll - "INSIGNIFICANT PLEBE!! I AM THE SHAWN DRISCOLL!! SCOURGE OF THE YOUTUBE BLOGGERS AND LEGEND IN MY OWN MIND!! QUAKE IN FEAR AS I DESTROY YOUR SHIP AND STRAND YOUR CHARACTERS!! YOU SHOULD HAVE READ THE RULES AND NOT INCURRED MY WRATH BY ASKING QUESTIONS OF ME, YOUR REFEREE!!"
New Player Unfamiliar with Traveller Rules and Playing for the First Time - "Wow. You must hate everyone who tries to play this game. Fuck this. Traveller is full of shitlords."
Long ago, in Shadis magazine there was an article by someone, probably Monty Cook, who had once worked at ICE. They sat down to play Spacemaster, spent two hours making characters, and died within the first five minutes due to a critically failed piloting roll. To which the GM said, tough luck roll up new characters.
My own thought is that in fluff terms it depends a great deal on whether the inertial dampers are working and whether the ship has any thrust or anti-grav functioning. If nothing's working, you're probably dead. The good news is that space is mostly empty so you're only likely to crash when you're close to something big. Inertial dampers can take off around three Gs they're the main reason there are maneuver drive TL limits if Fire Fusion and Steel is to be believed.
In game terms I'd work from that, does the Engineer have time to route temporary power from the laser turrets to the maneuver drive or intertial dampers, or can they vent some atmosphere to make a tiny angular deflection? Can the pilot use control surfaces to decelerate through atmosphere before impact? How much drag does opening the cargo bay get you? Lots of fun and tense skill rolls to be made.
In the end though, it comes down to how well will your players take a seemingly arbitrary TPK. Generally speaking, I find players get tired of sf really fast if they just die instantly from things beyond their control. On the one hand you don't want them to feel powerless, as realistic as that can be, but on the other hand you don't want them to think they have plot immunity. For Traveller, I'd suggest 1d - 5d damage to characters in a crash, depending on the circumstances.
There has to be some kind of precedent in ship-damage from starship combat rules. I don't recall, but are there maybe any rules on ramming or collisions in space?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1031344There has to be some kind of precedent in ship-damage from starship combat rules. I don't recall, but are there maybe any rules on ramming or collisions in space?
Not in Classic.
MgT core rules mentions collisions with "tiny objects" (something like 2D damage, I might be wrong), and also says that collision with anything at the speeds of spacetravel is lethal (not sure about the exact wording - it´s in the space encounter section).
Quote from: zx81;1031359Not in Classic.
MgT core rules mentions collisions with "tiny objects" (something like 2D damage, I might be wrong), and also says that collision with anything at the speeds of spacetravel is lethal (not sure about the exact wording - it´s in the space encounter section).
Conceit of the genre. Despite Traveller being 'the age of sail, but in space,' it actually gets the whole 'space is big' part right. Ramming one ship with another during a combat scenario would be like two long-range snipers shooting each other's bullets out of the air (but instead of the bullets, they are throwing themselves that distance? Hmmm. Poor analogy choice).
Ramming one ship with another or a space stations during docking exercises would make sense, as you are actually trying to pull up close. And ramming a ship with a planet makes sense if it happens during a takeoff or de-orbiting. I'm a little surprised that there isn't a generalized ship mishap rule that doesn't apply, but Classic Traveller is like that sometimes.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1031344There has to be some kind of precedent in ship-damage from starship combat rules. I don't recall, but are there maybe any rules on ramming or collisions in space?
Ramming is hand-waved for the most part. The idea being that space is so huge, such things are rare, etc.
Huh, that's a surprise. But then, in spite of having run more than one Traveller campaign over the last 15 years, I've never been much of a fan of detailed space combat and tended to just hand-wave the whole lot.
Quote from: zx81;1031359Not in Classic.
MgT core rules mentions collisions with "tiny objects" (something like 2D damage, I might be wrong), and also says that collision with anything at the speeds of spacetravel is lethal (not sure about the exact wording - it´s in the space encounter section).
Orbital mechanics quickly multiplies the speed difference between objects. The general rule of thumb is that lower orbits move faster than lower orbits. Objects move the faster relative to the orbiting body the lower they are in their orbit. Finally orbits can be at different inclinations even at the same height i.e. same speed which mean a collision would be like two cars entering an intersection at some angle hitting each other at a high speed.
Depending on the relative mass the collision quickly becomes catastrophic for the starship.
Oh, did someone ask for detailed kinetic energy kill missiles in Traveller?
Here ya' go! Math and all!
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Quote from: estar;1031814Orbital mechanics quickly multiplies the speed difference between objects. The general rule of thumb is that lower orbits move faster than lower orbits. Objects move the faster relative to the orbiting body the lower they are in their orbit. Finally orbits can be at different inclinations even at the same height i.e. same speed which mean a collision would be like two cars entering an intersection at some angle hitting each other at a high speed.
Depending on the relative mass the collision quickly becomes catastrophic for the starship.
This is probably true.
Still, pulling off seemingly impossible landings is not uncommon in SF.
At least in my mind, although I cant think of an example right now.
Some system breaks down, but by reversing this and allocating power to that, while pulling really hard on the controls, the hero saves the day.
Quote from: zx81;1031826This is probably true.
Still, pulling off seemingly impossible landings is not uncommon in SF.
At least in my mind, although I cant think of an example right now.
Some system breaks down, but by reversing this and allocating power to that, while pulling really hard on the controls, the hero saves the day.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I *"
GM: "Ship crashes. Everyone dies."
Quote from: RPGPundit;1031808Huh, that's a surprise. But then, in spite of having run more than one Traveller campaign over the last 15 years, I've never been much of a fan of detailed space combat and tended to just hand-wave the whole lot.
An NCC-1701 crashing into a planet is always hand-waved. And building an NCC-1701A is also just hand-waved.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1032089An NCC-1701 crashing into a planet is always hand-waved. And building an NCC-1701A is also just hand-waved.
[video=youtube;R3VAJGsbUi0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3VAJGsbUi0[/youtube]
Hand-waved, huh?
If you can't figure out how to make a crash landing interesting and exciting for your Players then I'm not surprised.
I mean, if we were being 'realistic', a crash would almost certainly just kill everyone on board, right?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1032377I mean, if we were being 'realistic', a crash would almost certainly just kill everyone on board, right?
What about those "magic" gravplates (if they still work)?
In 40 years, someone must have found a pseudoscientific way of using them to save the crew or even the ship in a crash.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1032377I mean, if we were being 'realistic', a crash would almost certainly just kill everyone on board, right?
That would depend on so many factors as to be almost impossible to answer unless we nail down some of the variables.
I mean really, some cargo and passenger pods are designed to crash since terminal velocity will be so low on certain worlds that any kind of common landing system would take up valuable space in the hull.
Quote from: zx81;1032382What about those "magic" gravplates (if they still work)?
In 40 years, someone must have found a pseudoscientific way of using them to save the crew or even the ship in a crash.
There have been several rules about acceleration compensation and overloading that ensure the safety of people and cargo. Most notably in
Fire, Fusion, and Steel 1 and 2 and in MgT
High Guard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6hCTcwNKsk
Quote from: RPGPundit;1032377I mean, if we were being 'realistic', a crash would almost certainly just kill everyone on board, right?
If NPCs don't kill off Travellers, their own ships will.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1032377I mean, if we were being 'realistic', a crash would almost certainly just kill everyone on board, right?
Yes.
Quote from: zx81;1032382What about those "magic" gravplates (if they still work)?
In 40 years, someone must have found a pseudoscientific way of using them to save the crew or even the ship in a crash.
LOL 40 years! No:
Quote from: Skarg;1031892GM: "Ship crashes. Everyone dies."
Except maybe escape pods, or teleporters.
Seriously, it depends on whether it's, say, a ship designed with any capability to operate in the atmosphere in question and/or land on the planet
and whether it was doing anything like an attempt to land or not. There are many orders of magnitude between the levels of speed (and energy, squared . . .) in a flight plan slowly coming to a complete stop at a normal angle, and flying in an atmosphere, and hurtling about in space and flying straight into a planet. Only the first one is liable to have much room for survival of an uncontrolled flight into the surface of a planet, unless your handwavium inertial compensators have no limit and/or you have ultrashields(tm) that can withstand any amount of force.
Quote from: Skarg;1032695Except maybe escape pods.
These are considered Basic Jump Capsules pretty much.
See Rules quoted and attachments.
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Yeah those would be great for escaping from a ship, especially if it's in orbit over an appropriate planet. Or possibly ok if the ship is moving at a low enough speed through the atmosphere. But if the ship is racing towards the planet on a collision course, the velocity of the ship relative to the planet could become a problem unless it's quite low. Or maybe you could use them far enough before the ship hits the atmosphere that you can get into orbit instead of hitting the planet, and hope someone will rescue you.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1032477https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6hCTcwNKsk
I had forgotten how awesome that crash scene was in Pitch Black.
Quote from: Skarg;1032726Yeah those would be great for escaping from a ship, especially if it's in orbit over an appropriate planet. Or possibly ok if the ship is moving at a low enough speed through the atmosphere. But if the ship is racing towards the planet on a collision course, the velocity of the ship relative to the planet could become a problem unless it's quite low. Or maybe you could use them far enough before the ship hits the atmosphere that you can get into orbit instead of hitting the planet, and hope someone will rescue you.
Now you are talking about Liferafts, Like from Traveller-TNE
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Quote from: Skarg;1032726Yeah those would be great for escaping from a ship, especially if it's in orbit over an appropriate planet. Or possibly ok if the ship is moving at a low enough speed through the atmosphere. But if the ship is racing towards the planet on a collision course, the velocity of the ship relative to the planet could become a problem unless it's quite low. Or maybe you could use them far enough before the ship hits the atmosphere that you can get into orbit instead of hitting the planet, and hope someone will rescue you.
Let's assume the ship was not moving at interplanetary cruising speed (i.e., had yet to flip and start breaking), and randomly ran into a planet it hadn't seen in the way. That would put the relative velocity at up to maybe twice the speed a planet is moving (Solar Example Mercury is 48 km/s so twice that is almost 100 km/s). And yes, nothing can be done about those speeds. But assuming that the ship was at planetary orbital velocity (Ex. 7.8 km/s for Earth), and perhaps de-orbited in an uncontrolled fashion. The pod could jettison, and then sustain 12-13G (survivable for short periods, especially if neck-restrained and not required to stay conscious). That could mitigate that velocity in about a minute.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1032784Let's assume the ship was not moving at interplanetary cruising speed (i.e., had yet to flip and start breaking), and randomly ran into a planet it hadn't seen in the way. That would put the relative velocity at up to maybe twice the speed a planet is moving (Solar Example Mercury is 48 km/s so twice that is almost 100 km/s). And yes, nothing can be done about those speeds. But assuming that the ship was at planetary orbital velocity (Ex. 7.8 km/s for Earth), and perhaps de-orbited in an uncontrolled fashion. The pod could jettison, and then sustain 12-13G (survivable for short periods, especially if neck-restrained and not required to stay conscious). That could mitigate that velocity in about a minute.
What you are saying is true, but also depends on the thickness of the world's atmosphere. If the world has a multiple moon system, then you can get all Beowolf Schaeffer and aerobrake through the atmosphere of one to slow down enough to reach a moon with an atmosphere.
Oh, for sure. I was assuming no atmosphere (since one shouldn't design one's drop pods to assume there will be any).
Quote from: jeff37923;1032395That would depend on so many factors as to be almost impossible to answer unless we nail down some of the variables.
I mean really, some cargo and passenger pods are designed to crash since terminal velocity will be so low on certain worlds that any kind of common landing system would take up valuable space in the hull.
I suppose you have a point there. I was thinking in terms of Earth-type gravity and atmosphere. If you had crashes on other types of worlds, they might have a better chance of survival.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1033089I suppose you have a point there. I was thinking in terms of Earth-type gravity and atmosphere. If you had crashes on other types of worlds, they might have a better chance of survival.
Well, let me do an extreme example to illustrate. Lets say someone has bailed out of their starship and is trying to engage in a personal re-entry on a world with a UPP of E385000-0. With surface gravity being 0.377g and atmospheric density being 2.0, the guy bailing out has a terminal velocity of only 23.4 meters per second (about 52mph) where on Earth it would be 54 meters per second (about 121 mph). A human could probably survive a crash landing on E385000-0 with some seat belts and airbags alone.
Is terminal velocity for a person (on Earth) really only 121 mph? That's... well not all that survivable, but a lot closer than I expected. I'm surprised that there aren't more objects that survive falls from great heights relatively unscathed.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1033110Is terminal velocity for a person (on Earth) really only 121 mph? That's... well not all that survivable, but a lot closer than I expected. I'm surprised that there aren't more objects that survive falls from great heights relatively unscathed.
Other objects may not be as light & fluffy as a human (so their terminal velocity is higher) and/or they're not just falling from no initial velocity. Something in a stabe low Earth orbit has to be going about 17,500 mph relative to the surface to stay in orbit... terminal velocity isn't going to be a safety net for that!
A Traveller ship in maneuver combat that ends up on a vector intercepting a planet when it loses it's maneuver ability is liable to be on at least that bad a vector, or worse.
Surviving re-entry is one thing. Surviving a crash-landing is another.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;1033110Is terminal velocity for a person (on Earth) really only 121 mph? That's... well not all that survivable, but a lot closer than I expected. I'm surprised that there aren't more objects that survive falls from great heights relatively unscathed.
I saw a video a few years back where someone had fallen just seven stories (barely achieving terminal velocity) and landed on concrete. Dudes face looked like a pancake. I actually googled some falling photos of a similar nature, however can't display them at the moment as they are gruesomely NSFW. Hit anything at seventy and you go splat. Hit anything in execss of 100 and it is much works than that.
I don't think I'll ever forget the picture of what was left of the motorcycle dude that had collided with a chain link fence after at over 120 when he lost control of his motorcycle and ended up flying into the fence.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1033159I saw a video a few years back where someone had fallen just seven stories (barely achieving terminal velocity) and landed on concrete. Dudes face looked like a pancake. I actually googled some falling photos of a similar nature, however can't display them at the moment as they are gruesomely NSFW. Hit anything at seventy and you go splat. Hit anything in execss of 100 and it is much works than that.
I don't think I'll ever forget the picture of what was left of the motorcycle dude that had collided with a chain link fence after at over 120 when he lost control of his motorcycle and ended up flying into the fence.
Yeah, listen to GameDaddy. When I first researched this, I found all sorts of photo and video footage about what a high speed collision does to the human body, not real pretty to look at.
As a paramedic working the interstate for 23 years I concur.
Let's not have any of those kinds of pictures here, please.
I'm not sure they would be relevant, anyways. My point was (if I had one at all, more than just a "Really? Only 121 mph?") that I kind of (on a gut level) thought it was more like... I don't know, somewhere over 200 mph, but below mach 1 (exactly what I thought it was, I guess I don't know).
I guess, on further reflection, it does make sense. There have been a few cases of someone surviving falls of terminal velocity height (usually in the 'fell from aircraft' or 'jumped from aircraft, parachute failed completely' vein). Most of them are like that guy landed on the side of a snow-covered hill and basically slid all the way down (sorta like a stuntman landing on 300' of cardboard boxes), but one or two have like landed in the middle of a field and survived. I guess that's like those rare people who survive 120 mph motor-vehicle crashes -- close enough to survivable that enough mitigating factors can add up to alive.
Well, that's why I always roll for stuff like falling damage (or other mass-damage). There's always that outside chance he'll get low enough to survive even if its 20d6.
Heres a short crashsequence.
In Traveller this would be a failed shipsboat roll, but at least the pilot made his strengthsave.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vup9pA2wDRM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vup9pA2wDRM)
So... crashes, the good ones...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv_Kuicix64
Aliens Combat Drop, ALternate Version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn45pl8yXzk
Starship Troopers Klendathau Drop Scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rx8_vjbXX4
Gravity Collision Scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDeZyRtPJvI
Planet of the Apes Crash 1968
https://youtu.be/gGMJ_uRCW1I?t=218
Serenity - Leaf on the Wind Crash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ3MxC4B9Aw
Elysium Crash landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uUUeNqdMMU
How not to land an orbital rocket booster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvim4rsNHkQ
Armageddon Shuttle Crash
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65I1AMRFdGo
The Core Space Shuttle landing Sequence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG1RwE_x6Vg
Dream Chaser Space Taxi Crash Lands 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7lYNZ7JPyg
Dream Chaser Successful landing, Nov 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R4Ud5-rq3U
Orion Reentry 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1vmVJKqUFE
Plane Crashes Caught on Camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nt33U4EMnI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FZzkT-AE58
Most Amazing Landings Ever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH3o-GMv_BI
Top Ten Crosswind landings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw-HYGYdgkA
Oh, and I have had a few days like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vz5v4GbGr0
That's some interesting material.