Greetings!
I have the institution of slavery being widespread and common throughout my Thandor campaign. However, not all nations, kingdoms, or peoples embrace slavery. Much like in our own historical world, while slavery has been common for thousands of years virtually everywhere, there have also been those societies and cultures in different places that rejected slavery.
I'm reminded as I recall that the Chinese Empire--through various dynasties--ended official slavery. In other places, some quite surprising, like the Persian Empire, Xerxes I, I think--a majorly important early Persian Emperor, ended the institution of slavery. All state buildings, palaces, royal cities, were built by free-serving labourers and craftsmen, which the Persian Emperor mandated must be paid high wages for their work. The Persian Emperor, much loved by his people, wanted everyone to feel great pride in their empire, and to embrace a sense of common ownership in the glory of the Persian Empire.
In my campaign, I have different regional price indexes for slaves, based upon numerous factors--race, age, sex, applicable skills or training, and beauty. I also have a Rogue Subclass of Slave Master. I also have a Character Background: Slave, that Player Characters can select or potentially get through dice roll.
Do you use different kinds of slavery in your campaigns? How have you used slavery in your campaigns? Lots of good drama, storytelling, and plot development becomes available when using slavery in a campaign!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Slavery makes a great 'bad guy' to push against for heroic PCs. It's like that line from Sin City: you never feel bad about what you do to slavers.
About to start running a 2E Dark Sun game so yeah...
Is it a cheap source of labor or the alternative to "kill them all"?
Do you have a way for the "slave" to work / buy their freedom?
These have an impact on the practice.
Quote from: Greentongue on July 12, 2022, 01:23:18 PM
Is it a cheap source of labor or the alternative to "kill them all"?
Do you have a way for the "slave" to work / buy their freedom?
These have an impact on the practice.
Do they hold political and military power, like the Ottoman Jannisaries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary#:~:text=A%20Janissary%20(Ottoman%20Turkish%3A%20%DB%8C%DA%AD%DB%8C%DA%86%D8%B1%DB%8C,modern%20standing%20army%20in%20Europe.)? I've been fascinated with them since I learned about them and have often thought about having a "ruling" slave class in a fictional RPG society.
It's very rare for me to not have some amount of slavery in a setting for the simple reason that I'm looking for multiple sources of potential conflict. Some societies have slave, some do not. They vary in how much they support it or oppose it, and on what grounds. That's a really rich source of conflict.
I also usually have areas with completely different conflicts, where it doesn't come up much, if at all. Maybe the local goblin tribes keep captives as slaves, but that's not really a conflict. The players already were going to kill or drive off the goblins anyway, and freeing captives is just part of that. Might give it a little extra sauce when they do. Also gives a good reason why a captured PC isn't killed.
Anyway, there's time to go deal with a difficult, sticky, ethics questions on the boundary of two societies, and also time to go blast some goblins. It's up to the players what they want to do today. The setting tries to give them room.
In my longest-running game, the world's strongest power had slavery as a very prominent feature of their society because 1) I wanted them to be primarily antagonists for the game, and 2) one of the groups I mashed-up to create them, Eddings' Nyissans, is all about slavery. I set up some points to make for possible interesting plot twists, but they never came up in play. First, the nation the PCs lived in outlawed slavery, and it was stronger than the other in the little corner of the world that housed the campaign. And second, in order to allow more interaction and commerce between the two groups, the rulers made a compromise that slaves brought into the free country remained slaves, but if they remained in the country for a year by law they were free.
Quote from: Dropbear on July 12, 2022, 11:53:22 AM
About to start running a 2E Dark Sun game so yeah...
Most times I've played Dark Sun I start most of the PCs at Tyr's gladiatorial pits the day that Kalak is killed and the rest of the PCs watching the games. Then when Kalak gets killed chaos ensues and the slave PCs have to make a run for their freedom and the non-slave PCs end up meeting them along the way. Dark Sun without slavery ain't Dark Sun.
I also tend to include slavery at the periphery in other worlds. All traditionally "evil" humanoid races practice it, and finding them hauling human or demi-human cargo is commonplace. Many cultures from other races practice it to some extent or another as well, usually with prisoners of war or certain criminals. Even cultures that don't actively practice it with open slave markets may still hold slaves bought elsewhere.
Slavery isn't illegal in most places, since there's no central authority to stop the practice completely, but it might be frowned upon in freedom loving communities and slave masters may have difficulty keeping hold of their slaves in those territories, since such groups have a tendency to liberate slaves by force.
I have slavery as a caste, I have slavery as indentured servitude, I have slavery as punishment instead of death sentences, I have slavery as a "profession". Depends on location and setting assumptions.
Generally speaking, you don't have "civilization" without slavery. It's almost a developmental mandate to get past "Iron-Age" technological levels for a civilization. There are no ancient cultures that did not practice slavery and since most of the details of my fantasy games are informed directly or by analog by these cultures, it's pretty common in my fantasy games.
This doesn't mean there aren't locations where the practice is banned, of course. Or that there aren't cultures that that abhor it - but they tend to be smaller cultures or those that lean heavily on magic. That pyramid ain't gonna build itself - slaves or otherwise.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 12, 2022, 04:09:47 PM
Dark Sun without slavery ain't Dark Sun.
100% this. Slavers make perfect targets for enthusiastic ass whoopings.
I ran a scenario years ago about players being paid to capture Orcs so they could be forced to work until death.
It put them to good use instead of killing them outright.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 12, 2022, 09:58:58 PM
I ran a scenario years ago about players being paid to capture Orcs so they could be forced to work until death.
It put them to good use instead of killing them outright.
Yucky.
Quote from: Headless on July 12, 2022, 10:18:14 PM
Yucky.
It just makes common sense... Put the greenskins to work until they drop.
Remember it's only a game of make-believe.
Slavers make a good opponent for demigods to punch. In the face. Repeatedly.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 12, 2022, 10:24:35 PM
Quote from: Headless on July 12, 2022, 10:18:14 PM
Yucky.
It just makes common sense... Put the greenskins to work until they drop.
Remember it's only a game of make-believe.
Right it's only make believe. The imaginary orcs can't actually do any work. So why pretend to be yucky?
The current era is too stupid for me to include slavery in nuanced form in any of my settings. My tolerance for stupid noises at the table has dropped to zero, so slavery is something only evil non-humans do.
But even then, most of my non-human races only see humans as food because as soon as you go down the slavery-as-a-practice road, you get into non-consentual fucking of the slaves.
But fantasy games have Charm spells...so now you have magical slavery without that pesky trying-to-escape part. There's no whipping, beating or rough talk with your Charmed pets, even though their real minds might be screaming inside or totally oblivious to what happened to them - depending on how you interpret the spell.
Quote from: Headless on July 13, 2022, 01:04:24 AM
Right it's only make believe. The imaginary orcs can't actually do any work. So why pretend to be yucky?
Players can't actually do anything 'real' in a game - so why even RPG? If that's your logic...
I guess we could moralize whether we should or should not have slavery...but morally, killing someone is considered the worst "crime" and adventurers kill all the time, sometimes at genocidal levels. Is it better to let those who are certain to die have a chance to live as a slave? Not for me to say (I do not have situations where players can engage in slavery, buying selling or suggesting) but somehow slavery is considered "worse" than murder or killing. Most adventurers live in a gray area and are going into other creatures/beings homes and killing them and taking their stuff, with few if any questions asked.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 13, 2022, 05:58:53 AM
I guess we could moralize whether we should or should not have slavery...but morally, killing someone is considered the worst "crime" and adventurers kill all the time, sometimes at genocidal levels. Is it better to let those who are certain to die have a chance to live as a slave? Not for me to say (I do not have situations where players can engage in slavery, buying selling or suggesting) but somehow slavery is considered "worse" than murder or killing. Most adventurers live in a gray area and are going into other creatures/beings homes and killing them and taking their stuff, with few if any questions asked.
When we played this nearly two decades ago (WFRP1e). Nobody even raised an eyelid it was just another job for the PCs. They could have chosen not to do it as well. But the Orcs had been brutalizing a barony with raids and killing the populous. It's not as if they were 'good' Orcs. The PCs and the ordinary folk thought they were the good guys.
Move to 2020 and now everyone's "OMG! slavery in a game of imagination".
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 12, 2022, 10:52:40 PM
Slavers make a good opponent for demigods to punch. In the face. Repeatedly.
Precisely. I wouldn't condone it (unless I'm playing an evil character, then all bets are off) and it's great fun for PCs and DMs to go full ham on bad guys with minimal regrets.
But slavery is not something you can simply 'vanish' out of a setting, not unless your campaign is set in a very unusual world.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2022, 07:55:30 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 12, 2022, 10:52:40 PM
Slavers make a good opponent for demigods to punch. In the face. Repeatedly.
Precisely. I wouldn't condone it (unless I'm playing an evil character, then all bets are off) and it's great fun for PCs and DMs to go full ham on bad guys with minimal regrets.
But slavery is not something you can simply 'vanish' out of a setting, not unless your campaign is set in a very unusual world.
my world is unusual; all you need to remove slavery is to destroy the concept of slavery itself
This is easier said than done.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 13, 2022, 08:00:54 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2022, 07:55:30 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 12, 2022, 10:52:40 PM
Slavers make a good opponent for demigods to punch. In the face. Repeatedly.
Precisely. I wouldn't condone it (unless I'm playing an evil character, then all bets are off) and it's great fun for PCs and DMs to go full ham on bad guys with minimal regrets.
But slavery is not something you can simply 'vanish' out of a setting, not unless your campaign is set in a very unusual world.
my world is unusual; all you need to remove slavery is to destroy the concept of slavery itself
This is easier said than done.
Yeah, there's the rub.
I just think it's silly from a gaming/storytelling standpoint to eliminate such a wonderful 'hate sink' from a setting by fiat.
Do I approve of it personally? No. Would my characters? Not unless they are evil aligned (and even a couple might have qualms -- I ran a githzerai monk once who had some understandable issues with the institution. He may have been lawful evil but he sure got twitchy about slavery due to the history of the gith).
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2022, 08:13:06 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 13, 2022, 08:00:54 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2022, 07:55:30 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 12, 2022, 10:52:40 PM
Slavers make a good opponent for demigods to punch. In the face. Repeatedly.
Precisely. I wouldn't condone it (unless I'm playing an evil character, then all bets are off) and it's great fun for PCs and DMs to go full ham on bad guys with minimal regrets.
But slavery is not something you can simply 'vanish' out of a setting, not unless your campaign is set in a very unusual world.
my world is unusual; all you need to remove slavery is to destroy the concept of slavery itself
This is easier said than done.
Yeah, there's the rub.
I just think it's silly from a gaming/storytelling standpoint to eliminate such a wonderful 'hate sink' from a setting by fiat.
Do I approve of it personally? No. Would my characters? Not unless they are evil aligned (and even a couple might have qualms -- I ran a githzerai monk once who had some understandable issues with the institution. He may have been lawful evil but he sure got twitchy about slavery due to the history of the gith).
Yeah. It makes it feel like the world itself is censored. It's different from implying that it exists. it's like what we're seeing is a Hollywood movie of the world rather than the actual world itself put to words.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 12, 2022, 11:32:00 AM
Slavery makes a great 'bad guy' to push against for heroic PCs. It's like that line from Sin City: you never feel bad about what you do to slavers.
The old 1E A series played a big part in my campaign world. One of the Slave Lords managed to escape and will return at an inopportune time for the party. In the meantime, their network was destroyed and hundreds if not thousands were saved. What's not to like about that?
As people have been saying... Slavers make truly vile villains so there's the hook right there for the PCs to get involved.
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2022, 04:58:09 AM
The current era is too stupid for me to include slavery in nuanced form in any of my settings. My tolerance for stupid noises at the table has dropped to zero, so slavery is something only evil non-humans do.
But even then, most of my non-human races only see humans as food because as soon as you go down the slavery-as-a-practice road, you get into non-consentual fucking of the slaves.
But fantasy games have Charm spells...so now you have magical slavery without that pesky trying-to-escape part. There's no whipping, beating or rough talk with your Charmed pets, even though their real minds might be screaming inside or totally oblivious to what happened to them - depending on how you interpret the spell.
The Charm Person spell in 5E at least is toothless and worthless. Unless you just want to make sure somebody wants you dead anyway. Its entirely too easy to save against, especially if you are in combat. It lasts a mere hour, and it's not subtle, as the subject knows they were charmed as soon as it's effects are over and exactly who charmed them. It can hardly be called a worthwhile spell to take at all in this edition.
One might as well forget entirely building a character based upon enchantment magic in 5E. So it's better just to play any other edition if you are considering such.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 12, 2022, 10:24:35 PM
Quote from: Headless on July 12, 2022, 10:18:14 PM
Yucky.
It just makes common sense... Put the greenskins to work until they drop.
Remember it's only a game of make-believe.
Hopefully not in a game based on the Warhammer greenskins or any other where ork reproduction is based on spores and conflict makes them stronger.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 13, 2022, 09:52:33 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 12, 2022, 10:24:35 PM
Quote from: Headless on July 12, 2022, 10:18:14 PM
Yucky.
It just makes common sense... Put the greenskins to work until they drop.
Remember it's only a game of make-believe.
Hopefully not in a game based on the Warhammer greenskins or any other where ork reproduction is based on spores and conflict makes them stronger.
Indeed... All based on WFRP 1e lore. But they were a small band of marauders. So once they were beaten and chained up they were never going to escape.
And if the greenskins didn't work then they would be beaten and starved to death. I'd assume... because we never actually played beyond the delivery of the filthy greenskins.
But who knows, maybe they escaped after that?? Now I have part 2 of the adventure! Our brave heroes now have to root out and exterminate all the vile Orcs. :)
Quote from: tenbones on July 12, 2022, 04:35:00 PM
I have slavery as a caste, I have slavery as indentured servitude, I have slavery as punishment instead of death sentences, I have slavery as a "profession". Depends on location and setting assumptions.
Generally speaking, you don't have "civilization" without slavery. It's almost a developmental mandate to get past "Iron-Age" technological levels for a civilization. There are no ancient cultures that did not practice slavery and since most of the details of my fantasy games are informed directly or by analog by these cultures, it's pretty common in my fantasy games.
This doesn't mean there aren't locations where the practice is banned, of course. Or that there aren't cultures that that abhor it - but they tend to be smaller cultures or those that lean heavily on magic. That pyramid ain't gonna build itself - slaves or otherwise.
To add to this: slavery is so central to civilization we still practice it today. We just don't care because we just call it something else and it mostly happens in other parts of the world, so it's out of sight out of mind. But every time we use our computer and smartphones to type posts like these we're using the products of slavery, which we participate on every time we buy these products—specially those of us (not me) who feel like neurotic need to always have the latest mobile device as a status symbol.
The materials for these devices are mined by slave labor in Africa. The devices are assembled by people working in factories with suicide nets in China. Globalism at its finest! Slavery's everywhere, we just don't see it even though we participate in it all the time.
And if things are that way today, imagine how how they would be in the type of ancient worlds most fantasy games are based on. That's why I always assume that slavery is going on in all my campaigns even if I don't explicitly make it an issue PCs encounter all the time.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 13, 2022, 05:58:53 AM
I guess we could moralize whether we should or should not have slavery...but morally, killing someone is considered the worst "crime" and adventurers kill all the time, sometimes at genocidal levels. Is it better to let those who are certain to die have a chance to live as a slave? Not for me to say (I do not have situations where players can engage in slavery, buying selling or suggesting) but somehow slavery is considered "worse" than murder or killing. Most adventurers live in a gray area and are going into other creatures/beings homes and killing them and taking their stuff, with few if any questions asked.
I view this more as a modern cliche than the way reality really works. There are worse things than death (what's described in Metallica's song "One" comes to mind), and people used to kill each other even over petty shit like insults right up until relatively recently in history. And they still do sometimes, but it used to be socially acceptable to challenge someone to a duel and just kill them cuz they publicly disparaged your character or whatever. And being forced into slavery is far worse than being insulted.
IMO, life itself is pointless and meaningless on its own. It's what you get to do with it that has any value. But merely being technically alive while being someone's property and not being able to do anything with your life is pointless, and depending on how you're treated and what sort of things your "owner" gets to do to you, death might just be a more merciful end regardless.
Quote from: Dropbear on July 13, 2022, 08:50:33 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2022, 04:58:09 AM
The current era is too stupid for me to include slavery in nuanced form in any of my settings. My tolerance for stupid noises at the table has dropped to zero, so slavery is something only evil non-humans do.
But even then, most of my non-human races only see humans as food because as soon as you go down the slavery-as-a-practice road, you get into non-consentual fucking of the slaves.
But fantasy games have Charm spells...so now you have magical slavery without that pesky trying-to-escape part. There's no whipping, beating or rough talk with your Charmed pets, even though their real minds might be screaming inside or totally oblivious to what happened to them - depending on how you interpret the spell.
The Charm Person spell in 5E at least is toothless and worthless. Unless you just want to make sure somebody wants you dead anyway. Its entirely too easy to save against, especially if you are in combat. It lasts a mere hour, and it's not subtle, as the subject knows they were charmed as soon as it's effects are over and exactly who charmed them. It can hardly be called a worthwhile spell to take at all in this edition.
One might as well forget entirely building a character based upon enchantment magic in 5E. So it's better just to play any other edition if you are considering such.
Charm Person is a first level spell, and it's not good for long term compulsions. However, targets could tell they were charmed all the way back in 1E/2E, and the trick to using Charm in 5E is to tag a weak-Wisdom save enemy to keep him out of the fight or convince someone to do something when you don't care about long-term issues ('Hey, buddy, why don't you open this door for us?').
Magic in 5E got nerfed solidly anyways. Concentration doesn't stop you from casting other spells, but sustaining a spell definitely limits some of your magical options.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2022, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: Dropbear on July 13, 2022, 08:50:33 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2022, 04:58:09 AM
The current era is too stupid for me to include slavery in nuanced form in any of my settings. My tolerance for stupid noises at the table has dropped to zero, so slavery is something only evil non-humans do.
But even then, most of my non-human races only see humans as food because as soon as you go down the slavery-as-a-practice road, you get into non-consentual fucking of the slaves.
But fantasy games have Charm spells...so now you have magical slavery without that pesky trying-to-escape part. There's no whipping, beating or rough talk with your Charmed pets, even though their real minds might be screaming inside or totally oblivious to what happened to them - depending on how you interpret the spell.
The Charm Person spell in 5E at least is toothless and worthless. Unless you just want to make sure somebody wants you dead anyway. Its entirely too easy to save against, especially if you are in combat. It lasts a mere hour, and it's not subtle, as the subject knows they were charmed as soon as it's effects are over and exactly who charmed them. It can hardly be called a worthwhile spell to take at all in this edition.
One might as well forget entirely building a character based upon enchantment magic in 5E. So it's better just to play any other edition if you are considering such.
Charm Person is a first level spell, and it's not good for long term compulsions. However, targets could tell they were charmed all the way back in 1E/2E, and the trick to using Charm in 5E is to tag a weak-Wisdom save enemy to keep him out of the fight or convince someone to do something when you don't care about long-term issues ('Hey, buddy, why don't you open this door for us?').
Magic in 5E got nerfed solidly anyways. Concentration doesn't stop you from casting other spells, but sustaining a spell definitely limits some of your magical options.
Yeah, Charm Person and most mind affecting magic in general were always kinda weak since before 5e, specially considering that they're binary hit or miss spells that do absolutely nothing if your target makes their save. At least damage spells do half damage on a successful save, and damage immunity is rare and applies to specific damage types. But enemies with immunity to mind affecting or "charm" effects at least are a dime a dozen.
But Charm Person is only a level 1 spell at least, and one hour might not be much, but it's still VASTLY longer lasting than most other spells in 5e and doesn't require Concentration, unlike 90% or so of all duration spells in 5e.
I see no reason why good societies wouldn't enslave orcs and goblins. It keeps them out of mischief and as slaves to humans they would often be better off than in their own tribes.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on July 13, 2022, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: Dropbear on July 13, 2022, 08:50:33 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 13, 2022, 04:58:09 AM
The current era is too stupid for me to include slavery in nuanced form in any of my settings. My tolerance for stupid noises at the table has dropped to zero, so slavery is something only evil non-humans do.
But even then, most of my non-human races only see humans as food because as soon as you go down the slavery-as-a-practice road, you get into non-consentual fucking of the slaves.
But fantasy games have Charm spells...so now you have magical slavery without that pesky trying-to-escape part. There's no whipping, beating or rough talk with your Charmed pets, even though their real minds might be screaming inside or totally oblivious to what happened to them - depending on how you interpret the spell.
The Charm Person spell in 5E at least is toothless and worthless. Unless you just want to make sure somebody wants you dead anyway. Its entirely too easy to save against, especially if you are in combat. It lasts a mere hour, and it's not subtle, as the subject knows they were charmed as soon as it's effects are over and exactly who charmed them. It can hardly be called a worthwhile spell to take at all in this edition.
One might as well forget entirely building a character based upon enchantment magic in 5E. So it's better just to play any other edition if you are considering such.
Charm Person is a first level spell, and it's not good for long term compulsions. However, targets could tell they were charmed all the way back in 1E/2E, and the trick to using Charm in 5E is to tag a weak-Wisdom save enemy to keep him out of the fight or convince someone to do something when you don't care about long-term issues ('Hey, buddy, why don't you open this door for us?').
Magic in 5E got nerfed solidly anyways. Concentration doesn't stop you from casting other spells, but sustaining a spell definitely limits some of your magical options.
I am not sure about 1E, I'd have to look it up but in 2E there is no provision in the rules for the spell for the target to automatically know it was charmed and exactly who charmed it. They only retain full memory of the events that transpired while they were charmed. So not exactly full identification that a specific spell was cast on them and specifically who cast said spell, unlike the precise wording for Charm Person in 5E which enables just that.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 13, 2022, 11:14:25 AM
I see no reason why good societies wouldn't enslave orcs and goblins. It keeps them out of mischief and as slaves to humans they would often be better off than in their own tribes.
It makes sense... Especially in a 'fantasy' setting given our own history with slavery. Plus Orcs are vile bastards that would do the same to humanity if they could assuming they had leftovers after eating our faces off.
This whole 'new' notion of Orcs being potentially good is ludicrous given their nature, and the way they are created. Sure, you can make them fluffy in your own game if you want, but that's just a way of telling yourself that it's bad to be 'wacist. For all of us with a lick of common sense, we already knew that and WE never thought of Orcs representing any real human race.
Again that's a first-world woke scold problem.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 13, 2022, 11:24:23 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 13, 2022, 11:14:25 AM
I see no reason why good societies wouldn't enslave orcs and goblins. It keeps them out of mischief and as slaves to humans they would often be better off than in their own tribes.
It makes sense... Especially in a 'fantasy' setting given our own history with slavery. Plus Orcs are vile bastards that would do the same to humanity if they could assuming they had leftovers after eating our faces off.
This whole 'new' notion of Orcs being potentially good is ludicrous given their nature, and the way they are created. Sure, you can make them fluffy in your own game if you want, but that's just a way of telling yourself that it's bad to be 'wacist. For all of us with a lick of common sense, we already knew that and WE never thought of Orcs representing any real human race.
Again that's a first-world woke scold problem.
I agree with this for the most part, with only Eberron or Shadowrun being games that I have run where orcs are not your prototypical monsters ready to rape and pillage and kill and enslave anyone and everyone that opposes them.
I don't even recall what their analog is in Dark Sun anymore, maybe Gith?
Quote from: Dropbear on July 13, 2022, 11:28:47 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 13, 2022, 11:24:23 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 13, 2022, 11:14:25 AM
I see no reason why good societies wouldn't enslave orcs and goblins. It keeps them out of mischief and as slaves to humans they would often be better off than in their own tribes.
It makes sense... Especially in a 'fantasy' setting given our own history with slavery. Plus Orcs are vile bastards that would do the same to humanity if they could assuming they had leftovers after eating our faces off.
This whole 'new' notion of Orcs being potentially good is ludicrous given their nature, and the way they are created. Sure, you can make them fluffy in your own game if you want, but that's just a way of telling yourself that it's bad to be 'wacist. For all of us with a lick of common sense, we already knew that and WE never thought of Orcs representing any real human race.
Again that's a first-world woke scold problem.
I agree with this for the most part, with only Eberron or Shadowrun being games that I have run where orcs are not your prototypical monsters ready to rape and pillage and kill and enslave anyone and everyone that opposes them.
Yeah, plus if orc in your game are more like "beastmen" rather than "created to kill" they could still work as not necessarily evil even if they're predisposed towards violence.
QuoteI don't even recall what their analog is in Dark Sun anymore, maybe Gith?
Yeah, plus also wild Muls to an extent. Dark Sun is so savage and life is so harsh, you could drop raiders from any PC race and make them work. Elves in particular tend to engage in a lot of raiding, though it depends on the tribe and what their current circumstances are. Some are more into stealing or trading (often both), but a bad year can flip them into raiding easily.
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 13, 2022, 10:03:43 AM
Quote from: tenbones on July 12, 2022, 04:35:00 PM
I have slavery as a caste, I have slavery as indentured servitude, I have slavery as punishment instead of death sentences, I have slavery as a "profession". Depends on location and setting assumptions.
Generally speaking, you don't have "civilization" without slavery. It's almost a developmental mandate to get past "Iron-Age" technological levels for a civilization. There are no ancient cultures that did not practice slavery and since most of the details of my fantasy games are informed directly or by analog by these cultures, it's pretty common in my fantasy games.
This doesn't mean there aren't locations where the practice is banned, of course. Or that there aren't cultures that that abhor it - but they tend to be smaller cultures or those that lean heavily on magic. That pyramid ain't gonna build itself - slaves or otherwise.
To add to this: slavery is so central to civilization we still practice it today. We just don't care because we just call it something else and it mostly happens in other parts of the world, so it's out of sight out of mind. But every time we use our computer and smartphones to type posts like these we're using the products of slavery, which we participate on every time we buy these products—specially those of us (not me) who feel like neurotic need to always have the latest mobile device as a status symbol.
The materials for these devices are mined by slave labor in Africa. The devices are assembled by people working in factories with suicide nets in China. Globalism at its finest! Slavery's everywhere, we just don't see it even though we participate in it all the time.
And if things are that way today, imagine how how they would be in the type of ancient worlds most fantasy games are based on. That's why I always assume that slavery is going on in all my campaigns even if I don't explicitly make it an issue PCs encounter all the time.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 13, 2022, 05:58:53 AM
I guess we could moralize whether we should or should not have slavery...but morally, killing someone is considered the worst "crime" and adventurers kill all the time, sometimes at genocidal levels. Is it better to let those who are certain to die have a chance to live as a slave? Not for me to say (I do not have situations where players can engage in slavery, buying selling or suggesting) but somehow slavery is considered "worse" than murder or killing. Most adventurers live in a gray area and are going into other creatures/beings homes and killing them and taking their stuff, with few if any questions asked.
I view this more as a modern cliche than the way reality really works. There are worse things than death (what's described in Metallica's song "One" comes to mind), and people used to kill each other even over petty shit like insults right up until relatively recently in history. And they still do sometimes, but it used to be socially acceptable to challenge someone to a duel and just kill them cuz they publicly disparaged your character or whatever. And being forced into slavery is far worse than being insulted.
IMO, life itself is pointless and meaningless on its own. It's what you get to do with it that has any value. But merely being technically alive while being someone's property and not being able to do anything with your life is pointless, and depending on how you're treated and what sort of things your "owner" gets to do to you, death might just be a more merciful end regardless.
You can always kill yourself. Seems most slaves historically did not. Same with those iphones, if slavery is worse than death it seems iphones are getting made anyway. Slavery is NOT worse than death for one reason, realistic or not a slave can always hope for freedom.
Quote from: SHARK on July 12, 2022, 11:29:03 AM
Do you use different kinds of slavery in your campaigns? How have you used slavery in your campaigns? Lots of good drama, storytelling, and plot development becomes available when using slavery in a campaign!
I've rarely had much slavery in my fantasy campaigns, similar to not having much rape or fatal disease. Some historical realities simply aren't fun for most players. I played in a few historical, alternate-history, or pseudo-historical games like Harn where slavery was practiced, but we mostly skimmed over that side of life rather than delving into it.
That said, I've had slavery feature in a few games. I played Mutant Year Zero for a while, which is a post-apocalyptic game where one of the classes is literally "Slave" which was my PC. It had the "shake it off" ability to take a lot of punishment, and I ended up with some coincidentally thematic insect-related mutations.
I've had bad guy slavers in a few other broad fantasy games, but it was mostly local plots that quickly got broken up by PCs, rather than a widespread slavery system.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 13, 2022, 07:05:24 PMYou can always kill yourself. Seems most slaves historically did not. Same with those iphones, if slavery is worse than death it seems iphones are getting made anyway.
As was mentioned, some slave factories are designed to prevent suicides.
QuoteSlavery is NOT worse than death for one reason, realistic or not a slave can always hope for freedom.
How do you know that? Have you ever been dead? Realistic or not a (soon to be) dead man can always hope for resurrection.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 13, 2022, 07:05:24 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on July 13, 2022, 10:03:43 AM
Quote from: tenbones on July 12, 2022, 04:35:00 PM
I have slavery as a caste, I have slavery as indentured servitude, I have slavery as punishment instead of death sentences, I have slavery as a "profession". Depends on location and setting assumptions.
Generally speaking, you don't have "civilization" without slavery. It's almost a developmental mandate to get past "Iron-Age" technological levels for a civilization. There are no ancient cultures that did not practice slavery and since most of the details of my fantasy games are informed directly or by analog by these cultures, it's pretty common in my fantasy games.
This doesn't mean there aren't locations where the practice is banned, of course. Or that there aren't cultures that that abhor it - but they tend to be smaller cultures or those that lean heavily on magic. That pyramid ain't gonna build itself - slaves or otherwise.
To add to this: slavery is so central to civilization we still practice it today. We just don't care because we just call it something else and it mostly happens in other parts of the world, so it's out of sight out of mind. But every time we use our computer and smartphones to type posts like these we're using the products of slavery, which we participate on every time we buy these products—specially those of us (not me) who feel like neurotic need to always have the latest mobile device as a status symbol.
The materials for these devices are mined by slave labor in Africa. The devices are assembled by people working in factories with suicide nets in China. Globalism at its finest! Slavery's everywhere, we just don't see it even though we participate in it all the time.
And if things are that way today, imagine how how they would be in the type of ancient worlds most fantasy games are based on. That's why I always assume that slavery is going on in all my campaigns even if I don't explicitly make it an issue PCs encounter all the time.
Quote from: oggsmash on July 13, 2022, 05:58:53 AM
I guess we could moralize whether we should or should not have slavery...but morally, killing someone is considered the worst "crime" and adventurers kill all the time, sometimes at genocidal levels. Is it better to let those who are certain to die have a chance to live as a slave? Not for me to say (I do not have situations where players can engage in slavery, buying selling or suggesting) but somehow slavery is considered "worse" than murder or killing. Most adventurers live in a gray area and are going into other creatures/beings homes and killing them and taking their stuff, with few if any questions asked.
I view this more as a modern cliche than the way reality really works. There are worse things than death (what's described in Metallica's song "One" comes to mind), and people used to kill each other even over petty shit like insults right up until relatively recently in history. And they still do sometimes, but it used to be socially acceptable to challenge someone to a duel and just kill them cuz they publicly disparaged your character or whatever. And being forced into slavery is far worse than being insulted.
IMO, life itself is pointless and meaningless on its own. It's what you get to do with it that has any value. But merely being technically alive while being someone's property and not being able to do anything with your life is pointless, and depending on how you're treated and what sort of things your "owner" gets to do to you, death might just be a more merciful end regardless.
You can always kill yourself. Seems most slaves historically did not. Same with those iphones, if slavery is worse than death it seems iphones are getting made anyway. Slavery is NOT worse than death for one reason, realistic or not a slave can always hope for freedom.
Yes, iPhones are still being made. In factories with suicide nets. As in: work conditions were so bad people did try to kill themselves by jumping out the window, and the factory's response was "lets just install some nets outside to prevent people from killing themselves if they manage to jump." But like I mentioned, this depends on how you're treated and what sort of things your "owner" gets to do to you. Certain forms of slavery are very mild compared to others. Plus most people don't have the balls to off themselves, partly cuz people's sense of self-preservation is too high.
Also, some slaves historically didn't kill themselves, but they did wage slave revolts that often ended in their deaths regardless. IIRC Spartacus and all the slaves who followed him ended up getting executed once the Romans caught up to them. It wasn't suicide per se, but it was the next best thing: to take a couple of your tormentors with you on the way out in the hopes of maybe attaining freedom if you killed enough of them first. That sort of stuff can serve as a basis to run campaign come to think of it. You could call it "Liberty or Death: The Great Uprising!"
Quote from: Dropbear on July 13, 2022, 11:28:47 AM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 13, 2022, 11:24:23 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 13, 2022, 11:14:25 AM
I see no reason why good societies wouldn't enslave orcs and goblins. It keeps them out of mischief and as slaves to humans they would often be better off than in their own tribes.
It makes sense... Especially in a 'fantasy' setting given our own history with slavery. Plus Orcs are vile bastards that would do the same to humanity if they could assuming they had leftovers after eating our faces off.
This whole 'new' notion of Orcs being potentially good is ludicrous given their nature, and the way they are created. Sure, you can make them fluffy in your own game if you want, but that's just a way of telling yourself that it's bad to be 'wacist. For all of us with a lick of common sense, we already knew that and WE never thought of Orcs representing any real human race.
Again that's a first-world woke scold problem.
I agree with this for the most part, with only Eberron or Shadowrun being games that I have run where orcs are not your prototypical monsters ready to rape and pillage and kill and enslave anyone and everyone that opposes them.
I don't even recall what their analog is in Dark Sun anymore, maybe Gith?
Or Tareks.
Really, Athas is such an extreme environment, good characters can get away with a lot more simply because the alternatives are usually worse.
Moving away from fantasy slavery, science fiction slavery can bring about more fun gnashing of teeth over definitions.
Setting assumption where human cloning is customizable, cheap, reliable, and fast. Most of these are grown just to be canon fodder or grunt laborers or as humaniform wombs for growing the population (a worst case scenario IMHO). their physical attributes may be above average, but their intelligence is low and they are only educated to be skilled in their particular duty tasks. Are they still human? Are they just tools? If they are designed from the ground up to not be self-aware, do they even have the potential to be human? Or are these creatures just biological robots for use by those who call themselves human?
Lots of wiggle room for questions of slavery in game for that.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 13, 2022, 09:19:55 PM
Moving away from fantasy slavery, science fiction slavery can bring about more fun gnashing of teeth over definitions.
Setting assumption where human cloning is customizable, cheap, reliable, and fast. Most of these are grown just to be canon fodder or grunt laborers or as humaniform wombs for growing the population (a worst case scenario IMHO). their physical attributes may be above average, but their intelligence is low and they are only educated to be skilled in their particular duty tasks. Are they still human? Are they just tools? If they are designed from the ground up to not be self-aware, do they even have the potential to be human? Or are these creatures just biological robots for use by those who call themselves human?
Lots of wiggle room for questions of slavery in game for that.
Yes, that's what also interests me about androids. An android character would probably be property, but very expensive property and thus perhaps more valuable than actual human beings. Playing an android who was corporate property might be fun, because you'd have a kind of sense of self-preservation not for your own sake but because you are programmed to protect your corporation's property and that includes yourself.
William Gibson's Neuromancer introduced the concept of cybernetic sex slavery. AKA, to make money, you could allow your consciousness to be turned off while a hooker AI program ran your body. There was a question about how many of these now-mindless sex slaves were there voluntarily.
Slavery in cyberpunk gets very messy, especially when you get into corporate wage slaves who are unable to leave their arcology.
Slavery in post-apocalyptic settings like Gamma World have similar issues like fantasy Charm spells as Gamma World has plenty of mutants capable of warping minds into submission.
But again, what wasn't questioned at the game table 20 years ago BECAUSE ITS A DAMN GAME OF IMAGINATION, now apparently causes retards to make retard noises and cryfests.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on July 13, 2022, 08:51:31 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on July 13, 2022, 07:05:24 PMYou can always kill yourself. Seems most slaves historically did not. Same with those iphones, if slavery is worse than death it seems iphones are getting made anyway.
As was mentioned, some slave factories are designed to prevent suicides.
QuoteSlavery is NOT worse than death for one reason, realistic or not a slave can always hope for freedom.
How do you know that? Have you ever been dead? Realistic or not a (soon to be) dead man can always hope for resurrection.
I have never been a slave either, but a casual glance at history shows millions of people were quite willing to be slaves rather than die. Personally I would fight to the death, but I do not know if that is a worse/better scenario even for myself...it is just the belligerent nature manifested with something for me to lash out at. I would be an outlier case anyway and the sort that slave taking cultures would have killed at the get go to prevent problems or fed me to lions in front of a crowd. I am not making a personal experience observation here, but a historical one, and history says most people who took the poll preferred slavery to death though death was available.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 12, 2022, 10:24:35 PM
Quote from: Headless on July 12, 2022, 10:18:14 PM
Yucky.
It just makes common sense... Put the greenskins to work until they drop.
Green-skinned orcs is a far worse crime against humanity than slavery ever was.
Quote from: Spinachcat on July 14, 2022, 04:42:51 AM
William Gibson's Neuromancer introduced the concept of cybernetic sex slavery. AKA, to make money, you could allow your consciousness to be turned off while a hooker AI program ran your body. There was a question about how many of these now-mindless sex slaves were there voluntarily.
Slavery in cyberpunk gets very messy, especially when you get into corporate wage slaves who are unable to leave their arcology.
Slavery in post-apocalyptic settings like Gamma World have similar issues like fantasy Charm spells as Gamma World has plenty of mutants capable of warping minds into submission.
But again, what wasn't questioned at the game table 20 years ago BECAUSE ITS A DAMN GAME OF IMAGINATION, now apparently causes retards to make retard noises and cryfests.
Oooh yes. In Shadowrun, it's called 'bunraku' and it's really fucking creepy. I was in a game where one character was someone who'd escaped one of those shops, and she'd compulsively burn down any bunraku parlor she discovered. Caused us a few headaches ICly but we all agreed out of game that it was pretty much par for the course.
Quote from: Neoplatonist1 on July 13, 2022, 08:51:31 PM
QuoteSlavery is NOT worse than death for one reason, realistic or not a slave can always hope for freedom.
How do you know that? Have you ever been dead? Realistic or not a (soon to be) dead man can always hope for resurrection.
Rhetorically speaking - this is true subjectively, but the point of this discussion is to play a game. If everyone happily kills themselves in-game (or out) then it gets in the way of gaming.
Anecdotally, I've been beaten to "death" (I had to be resuscitated), and I'd much rather be a slave. But I've had my players put into situations where they were enslaved and were beaten routinely for disobedience etc. and at no point, even knowing they could "re-roll" characters if they died, did they choose to die.
Interesting and worth consideration. I'd also submit that orcs and goblins would make horrible slaves for humans. Mainly because they're too unruly to be tamed and to break them you'd have to have some particularly disciplined and sadistic motherfuckers to try and break them. The idea they'd simply "do work" without real fear of death/fear requires a person with force of will and capacity to do that *all the time* with misanthropes like Goblinoids/Orcs.
And the quality of the work would be shit.
Slavery depends a lot on breaking the slave's spirit, not necessarily their body.
Speaking clinically, you have to set up a system (or at least the appearance of one) where nothing they do will break them loose, except death. Because the very last thing you want is a slave who isn't broken to your will. That's a great way to wind up dead.
Slavery a fate worse than death, really? Depending on the culture, as a slave you could own property, get married, have a family, earn or buy your freedom, yadda yadda yadda. Slaves in Roman Sicily were often given arms to fight off bandits. Why didn't they just kill their masters? Well they did, but not as often as you'd expect.
It was 1% woe is me I'm gonna kill myself instead of be a slave vs. 99% how do I get out of this and perhaps kill a few of these fuckers in the process?
There's slavery in several historic campaigns I run. It's there and the PCs see it. They sometimes interact with it, but no one has yet to own or be a slave. They did free one once, but they were gonna kill the master anyway. So it's circumstantial in my games, not at the forefront. But now you all have given me some ideas.
In a fantasy setting, slavery doesn't have to end when the slave dies.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 14, 2022, 05:59:36 PM
In a fantasy setting, slavery doesn't have to end when the slave dies.
Yes, mindless undead make some of the best slaves.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 14, 2022, 05:59:36 PM
In a fantasy setting, slavery doesn't have to end when the slave dies.
imagine being dead, a ghost and you are still a slave
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 15, 2022, 03:46:09 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 14, 2022, 05:59:36 PM
In a fantasy setting, slavery doesn't have to end when the slave dies.
imagine being dead, a ghost and you are still a slave
Isn't that part of the despair and anguish attributed to the undead that retain their personalities?
Greetings!
Something that I keep in mind when building different societies, cultures, and individual communities, is the idea that the love for freedom is not universal--contrary to the earnest wishes of many. Some people--many people--are born to be slaves. These people are most content and comfortable with being on their knees, and serving a greater, stronger master. In truth, these people are morally and emotionally weak, prone to chaos, debauchery, and dissolution, therefore they crave the discipline, the structure, and authority provided by those stronger than themselves. Such people do not want freedom--freedom requires responsibility, and a measure of discipline, as well as prudence, and self-control. All such traits the many slave-minded people lack. Therefore, the slave-minded people embrace being slaves, and thereupon despise those that champion freedom, independence, and liberty. The slave-minded people often work to spread the philosophy of slavery, of being content with servitude and serving their greater masters. They hate those that are free, and readily and eagerly assist the masters that are in power to crush such rebels, and enforce conformity and obedience.
Historically speaking, we can see that there have always been slave-minded people. In truth, while the rebels are often passionate and rebel frequently, they are typically a distinct minority.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 15, 2022, 03:46:09 AM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 14, 2022, 05:59:36 PM
In a fantasy setting, slavery doesn't have to end when the slave dies.
imagine being dead, a ghost and you are still a slave
There are already settings that have developed that. The old WW Wraith game, the church in the Ravnica D&D setting, the DEathlords from Exalted, the Nighthaunts in Soulbound, and doubtless many more.