Courtney Campbell, has a very detailed and annotated blog post about Ken Whitman (http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2015/07/on-principled-profit-con-man-and-fraud.html). In it is a list of Ken Whitman's escapades since 1996 in defrauding gamers by promising everything while delivering nothing. It makes for some interesting reading and made me wonder about how effective the gaming "community" is about policing our own and warning people away from crooks if Ken Whitman has been operating for almost 20 years so far.
The tabletop community sucks at protecting people from fraud--I can think of a half dozen folks who straight ripped off kickstarter backers or completely failed to deliver with no excuse (not a thin excuse: NO excuse) and still get listened to as if they're sane, responsible voices and could start another Kickstarter and get it funded tomorrow. And literally dozens more who openly and provably lied about shit in public places with the same nonresult.
I was talking to someone at the Guardian about this:
The problem is twofold:
-There's no professional tabletop gaming newsies, period. So there's nobody whose stock and reputation depends on getting the facts (plausibly close to) right who is trying to build up to getting a real mainstream press job.
-The responsibility then falls to the boards and forums and blogs, which treats all attempts to point out fraud or bad business practices as "Drama".
Once something is classified as Drama, the procedure is:
-Relentlessly reshare and talk about it
-Relentlessly attack everyone involved on any side (victim, perp, people reporting it, commenters) for being involved in it at all in any way
-Desperately avoid any attempt to figure out the facts and attack people for trying to do it
It is not just that the lemmings throw their money at fraudsters, it is that they gleefully encourage every one else to do so as well.
Quote from: Zak S;844762-There's no professional tabletop gaming newsies, period.
And at this point I'm betting there never will be.
Shucks, we haven't even really been able to generate any clear big shot youtube commentators. Video gaming has dozens of those.
Aside from Zak's excellent summation -- "blame the victim/messenger" being SOP in our society at large, not merely in gaming circles -- there's an observation we miss.
Gamers have a surprising tendency to operate by tunnel vision. They feel that the figures they believe to be of monumental importance are viewed by every gamer that way. They believe that how their own gaming circle operates is pretty much how all right minded gaming circles operate. They conflate personal experiences with what all gamers must be experiencing. And on their teensy little online forums, often with no more than a few dozen regulars, they figure that the topics of conversation and controversy must be on the lips of gamers everywhere.
The "community" just doesn't have the reach and sway members think it does. There are no doubt hundreds of thousands of gamers who have no opinion -- if they had the slightest idea -- about Paizo's inclusion of gay NPCs in a couple of their products. They don't know from GNS or the Forge or RPGnet, and wouldn't care if they did. They play D&D without worrying about editions or Hasbro's business machinations, they play GURPS without grumbling about SJ Games' alleged abandonment of the line for Munchkin, they play RIFTS without knowing anything more of Kevin Siembieda's antics than a name on the cover of the book, and they play White Wolf games without caring whether or not furries might likewise be drawn to them.
And they have no idea about Ken Whitman, and couldn't care less. (Their response might also be that if Whitman is indeed a crook, dealing with him is less our business than that of the legitimate authorities.)
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;844766Shucks, we haven't even really been able to generate any clear big shot youtube commentators. Video gaming has dozens of those.
The grand total worldwide sales of every RPG ever produced, all lumped together, are a fraction of the worldwide gross for video games just last year. Many times more people logged on to
Call of Duty online games just last month than likely have ever
heard of D&D.
Another problem is that some of the scammers present something OOP and instantly you have the "want-it-need-it" crowd who can and will back even blatant thieves if it means they will get their precious.
Others are just really good at spin-doctoring things to make themselves look the victim or somehow garner sympathy.
Another reason why there is no policing is that a-lot of people in the gaming biz have skeletons in the closet and dirty little secrets that they themselves don't want exposed. They aren't going to stand up for fear that eyes may turn on them next. Or that it may cause a cascade effect and people start finally scrutinizing whats going on behind closed doors. Or those little bootleggers and wanna-bes who don't want the golden goose killed.
But gradually attention is being drawn. See my post about the whole Doom that came to Atlantic City KS scam and how it attracted legal attention then ended up on the news.
Quote from: jeff37923;844741James Mathe, co-owner of DriveThru RPG and others, has a very detailed and annotated blog post about Ken Whitman (http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2015/07/on-principled-profit-con-man-and-fraud.html). In it is a list of Ken Whitman's escapades since 1996 in defrauding gamers by promising everything while delivering nothing. It makes for some interesting reading and made me wonder about how effective the gaming "community" is about policing our own and warning people away from crooks if Ken Whitman has been operating for almost 20 years so far.
Interesting read. He should do GMS next.
Quote from: jeff37923;844741James Mathe, co-owner of DriveThru RPG and others, has a very detailed and annotated blog post about Ken Whitman (http://hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2015/07/on-principled-profit-con-man-and-fraud.html). In it is a list of Ken Whitman's escapades since 1996 in defrauding gamers by promising everything while delivering nothing. It makes for some interesting reading and made me wonder about how effective the gaming "community" is about policing our own and warning people away from crooks if Ken Whitman has been operating for almost 20 years so far.
Isn't that Courtney Campbell's blog?
Caveat Emptor is key in crowd-sourcing. You gotta do your due diligence before dropping cash, and then, don't drop cash you can't live without.
I've only heard good things about Jolly Blackburn. It's too bad he got into business with a scumbag. Unfortunately, many scumbags have sales skills to shuck and jive decent people out of their money.
I feel this is once again relevant to post:
(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-jbBQTJT/0/1050x10000/i-jbBQTJT-1050x10000.jpg)
Quote from: CRKrueger;844781Isn't that Courtney Campbell's blog?
Yes, It's my blog. I'm pretty sure the original poster is referencing the reshare James posted on Facebook.
Thanks for noticing. :-)
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;844766And at this point I'm betting there never will be.
Shucks, we haven't even really been able to generate any clear big shot youtube commentators. Video gaming has dozens of those.
And most of those Video bloggers and commentators ALSO claim that they are NOT professional journalists, and that you should be wary of those who claim that they are.
Quote from: Ravenswing;844767And they have no idea about Ken Whitman, and couldn't care less.
I have no idea about Ken Whitman. I'll look at the link and see if I can care less.
Reporting, law enforcement interest, and societies interest in general will first follow the money and second look at the number of people effected.
There just isn't enough money in RPGs at all, much less in the failed kickstarters, nor enough people who lost money in failed kickstarters to get other people very interested. There are hundreds of other scams that effect more people and involve more money than the tiny fraction of kickstarter scams that comprise the tiny segment of new games in our tiny, tiny hobby. Even as someone with over four decades in the hobby and who has participated in kickstarters, I don't think investigating RPG kickstarter scams is a good use of my tax dollars.
Quote from: Bren;844969I have no idea about Ken Whitman. I'll look at the link and see if I can care less.
Reporting, law enforcement interest, and societies interest in general will first follow the money and second look at the number of people effected.
There just isn't enough money in RPGs at all, much less in the failed kickstarters, nor enough people who lost money in failed kickstarters to get other people very interested. There are hundreds of other scams that effect more people and involve more money than the tiny fraction of kickstarter scams that comprise the tiny segment of new games in our tiny, tiny hobby. Even as someone with over four decades in the hobby and who has participated in kickstarters, I don't think investigating RPG kickstarter scams is a good use of my tax dollars.
He took over 170,000$.
Quote from: valis;844963Yes, It's my blog. I'm pretty sure the original poster is referencing the reshare James posted on Facebook.
Thanks for noticing. :-)
My bad, I honestly thought it was James Mathe's blog. I apologize. If you would like me to change anything in my OP to correct this, I will.
the dungeondelver's post is spot on.
There are some fine and reputable folks who use crowd funding, but it is also a magnet for every shitbag who sees games as a means to an end.
Quote from: Aos;845095There are some fine and reputable folks who use crowd funding, but it is also a magnet for every shitbag who sees games as a means to an end.
So I take it this would be a bad time to announce my Cyber-Dystopian, Western, Post Zombie Apocalypse Kickstarter then?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;845098So I take it this would be a bad time to announce my Cyber-Dystopian, Western, Post Zombie Apocalypse Kickstarter then?
Only if microfame and microprofits are your ultimate goals. If you just want your game in a book, I got no problem with that.
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxv3mlwibL1r2qgn1.gif)
It was a joke.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;845100(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxv3mlwibL1r2qgn1.gif)
It was a joke.
Yeah, I got that.
Sorry to upset you so.
The beauty of scamming people via KickStarter is that if you can find 5,000 suckers to kick in $20 each, that's $100,000 in your pocket, but who's going to go to the trouble to take legal action over a measly $20?
I get the sense that some people don't even bother to keep track of which KickStarters they've backed, so if some project they supported 2 years ago goes awol they might not even notice.
Quote from: Dimitrios;845107The beauty of scamming people via KickStarter is that if you can find 5,000 suckers to kick in $20 each, that's $100,000 in your pocket, but who's going to go to the trouble to take legal action over a measly $20?
It happens:
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2015/06/crowdfunding-project-creator-settles-ftc-charges-deception
Quote from: jeff37923;845054My bad, I honestly thought it was James Mathe's blog. I apologize. If you would like me to change anything in my OP to correct this, I will.
I think it would be appropriate to change the attribution.
Quote from: valis;845120I think it would be appropriate to change the attribution.
Done. Message sent to Mods to change the title of thread.
Ravenswing had it right up above except the folks who don't know about Ken Whitman or GNS or OSR also aren't going to be backing Kickstarters for RPGs. The question to me is why are folks who are savvy enough that hey are posting on blogs and fora about RPGs all day unable to conduct a basic Google search before putting their money in the hands of documented scammers? I dunno. I don't back Kickstarters because (1) got no $ for it and (2) don't have the time to do my due diligence. I finally got my refund on Skarma's Buckaroo Banzai preorder after much hectoring and inquiring. Learned my lesson not to preorder a game without investigating whether it is actually going to be produced. I was naive and thought a preorder meant it was being readied for release.
Quote from: Matt;845138Ravenswing had it right up above except the folks who don't know about Ken Whitman or GNS or OSR also aren't going to be backing Kickstarters for RPGs. The question to me is why are folks who are savvy enough that hey are posting on blogs and fora about RPGs all day unable to conduct a basic Google search before putting their money in the hands of documented scammers? I dunno. I don't back Kickstarters because (1) got no $ for it and (2) don't have the time to do my due diligence. I finally got my refund on Skarma's Buckaroo Banzai preorder after much hectoring and inquiring. Learned my lesson not to preorder a game without investigating whether it is actually going to be produced. I was naive and thought a preorder meant it was being readied for release.
If there's one thing that video games taught me, is that Gamers of all stripes, whether they're table top or electronic, don't care about products. We work on promises, and if they don't pan out we get upset, for about a week, and then we move on to the next promise and the next and the next.
Pre-ordering, Early Access, Kickstarter, Indieagogo, all these things do not deliver anything other than Promises. Will some of these be fulfilled? Yes, indubitably, but never as intended, and never on time. But Gamers don't care, they hear the next 'cool thing' and jump onto the bandwagon, hoping to be 'special' enough to get something. If not, we just try again, and again, and again
Quote from: Christopher Brady;845150If there's one thing that video games taught me, is that Gamers of all stripes, whether they're table top or electronic, don't care about products. We work on promises, and if they don't pan out we get upset, for about a week, and then we move on to the next promise and the next and the next.
Pre-ordering, Early Access, Kickstarter, Indieagogo, all these things do not deliver anything other than Promises. Will some of these be fulfilled? Yes, indubitably, but never as intended, and never on time. But Gamers don't care, they hear the next 'cool thing' and jump onto the bandwagon, hoping to be 'special' enough to get something. If not, we just try again, and again, and again
Ya that's why I like Patreon, if you're going to pay out money to people it's a lot safer and less stressful to get a steady stream of small stuff where you get to see regularly exactly what you're paying for.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;845150Pre-ordering, Early Access, Kickstarter, Indieagogo, all these things do not deliver anything other than Promises. Will some of these be fulfilled? Yes, indubitably, but never as intended, and never on time. But Gamers don't care, they hear the next 'cool thing' and jump onto the bandwagon, hoping to be 'special' enough to get something. If not, we just try again, and again, and again
I gotta plead guilty, though not often. I preordered Fallout 4 and that's the first time I've done that since Oblivion.
This is what I have said since the beginning about Kickstarters:
Traditionally in a capitalist system, we do this:
1. make something, then
2. sell it
Kickstarters attempt to reverse the order. Give money to no kickstarters at all, then you cannot be disappointed by them.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;845154This is what I have said since the beginning about Kickstarters:
Traditionally in a capitalist system, we do this:
1. make something, then
2. sell it
Kickstarters attempt to reverse the order. Give money to no kickstarters at all, then you cannot be disappointed by them.
Well, except for venture capital, which is an important part of a capitalist economy.
The way I see it, crowdsourcing microsizes the VC process, and because of the tiny amounts typically involved, investors can get in early, without Securities Commissions requiring a detailed prospectus or contributors having to claim informed investor status.
The confusion arises because people think Kickstarter et al are simply online preorder systems... but they are really not that. Contributions are investments, and investments unfortunately sometimes go south. That happens in capitalism all the time.
Obviously the best move is not to invest in things if you can't afford to lose your money. The next best thing, if you are hell bent on investing, is to be as fully informed as is possible about the costs and risks ... I imagine that's tough to do though, as Kickstarter pitches are online brochures and not really micro-business plans. It doesn't usually seem there is enough information available to conduct due diligence.
But I guess the shiny stretch goals override caution and prudence.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;845154This is what I have said since the beginning about Kickstarters:
Traditionally in a capitalist system, we do this:
1. make something, then
2. sell it
Kickstarters attempt to reverse the order. Give money to no kickstarters at all, then you cannot be disappointed by them.
I don't think that's really the case though, not for the last 100+ years. A lot of things are simply too expensive to start up without money from investors.
And in a lot of times, they were shady. My father spent most of the 80s getting people to invest in rather silly schemes. Automated recycling machines, portable greenhouses, smog masks, reflective tape for highways are the ones I remember. (Our basement was full of boxes of all that stuff, well, not the recycling machines, they were the size of an RV)
The difference with Kickstarters is that it's not from investors, but from either patrons of the arts (ideally) or pre-orders (how it's really used).
Quote from: TristramEvans;844777Interesting read. He should do GMS next.
Huh. GMS is absolutely an asshole -- he was the very first person I blocked in ANY VBulletin-format forum -- but what's he pulled that was shady?
(Not snarking. Just asking.)
Quote from: saskganesh;845168Well, except for venture capital, which is an important part of a capitalist economy.
The way I see it, crowdsourcing microsizes the VC process, and because of the tiny amounts typically involved, investors can get in early, without Securities Commissions requiring a detailed prospectus or contributors having to claim informed investor status.
The confusion arises because people think Kickstarter et al are simply online preorder systems... but they are really not that. Contributions are investments, and investments unfortunately sometimes go south. That happens in capitalism all the time.
Obviously the best move is not to invest in things if you can't afford to lose your money. The next best thing, if you are hell bent on investing, is to be as fully informed as is possible about the costs and risks ... I imagine that's tough to do though, as Kickstarter pitches are online brochures and not really micro-business plans. It doesn't usually seem there is enough information available to conduct due diligence.
But I guess the shiny stretch goals override caution and prudence.
Shhh, don't upset the myth.
I've invested in half a dozen kickstarters or so, and never once had a failure. Of course I invest in stuff like the "Kobolds Ate My Baby" reprint and "Girl Genius" reprints and Autarch's latest adventure module and the Judges' Guild reprint, stuff I've heard of from people I've heard of.
The other thing is that other than Kobolds Ate My Baby I've never dropped more than about $15 on anything. First off, I don't WANT any more shit; I'm happy... in fact, MORE happy... with PDFs. Also, it's short money, so if it takes six months or a year over schedule for the goodies, I just don't sweat it.
And thirdly, I are a business school gradjyate, and yeah, you're right.... some investments don't pan out.
Investments promise a share of the profits. Kickstarters do not.
Quote from: Ravenswing;845184Huh. GMS is absolutely an asshole -- he was the very first person I blocked in ANY VBulletin-format forum -- but what's he pulled that was shady?
(Not snarking. Just asking.)
He first came to my attention in the early aughts when he was caught stealing art from Paul Mason's wife IIRC. I dont recall the details on that incident other than logging it away in the back of my brain as I tend to do with those sorts of things.
Recently it was his Far West Kickstarter, which has followed a pattern somewhat like the Dwimmermount fiasco (including an ailing father), but is even more pernicious in the amount of flat out lies told by GMs to his backers on numerous occasions.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;845098So I take it this would be a bad time to announce my Cyber-Dystopian, Western, Post Zombie Apocalypse Kickstarter then?
Oddly enough, something like that went up on KS a month ago. A Fighting Fantasy style book with cover art by one of the original FF artists no less.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1368488837/westward-dystopia-a-post-apocalyptic-gamebook-rpg/description (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1368488837/westward-dystopia-a-post-apocalyptic-gamebook-rpg/description)
Westward Dystopia
Quote from: thedungeondelver;844801I feel this is once again relevant to post:
(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/i-jbBQTJT/0/1050x10000/i-jbBQTJT-1050x10000.jpg)
fuckin A
That's pretty much Kickstarter RPG stuff inna nutshell yeah. Never used KS for games and never will. (Allthough, KS has been used for good things like re-printing less-known Osamu Tezuka stuff. :))
Quote from: Omega;845203Oddly enough, something like that went up on KS a month ago. A Fighting Fantasy style book with cover art by one of the original FF artists no less.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1368488837/westward-dystopia-a-post-apocalyptic-gamebook-rpg/description (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1368488837/westward-dystopia-a-post-apocalyptic-gamebook-rpg/description)
Westward Dystopia
A gender neutral, choose your own adventure book? I might have to toss them a buck.
Nothing remotely close to what I was thinking, though.
Quote from: valis;845039He took over 170,000$.
Is that for just one kickstarter or in aggregate over the past 20 years? If it's just one kickstarter it might be worth some police investigation. But given the usual number of participants and the relatively low dollar thresholds per participant this is probably less significant as a crime segment than those cheap contractors who go door-to-door offering to give you a good price on resealing your driveway, because "we're already in the neighborhood working on a few homes" and then don't do an actual resealing.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845186And thirdly, I are a business school gradjyate, and yeah, you're right.... some investments don't pan out.
Some of the most annoyed and annoying people one is likely to encounter in business are small investors. They are really uninformed about risk and almost delusional about their possible rewards. Even as the company marches towards bankruptcy.
Regarding kickstarters, I've done less than 1/2 a dozen. Most were new ventures so the creators were inexperienced. Most were late. All of them tried to communicate why they were late. All eventually delivered the product. All of the amounts were money I could afford to lose and to forget.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;845150If there's one thing that video games taught me, is that Gamers of all stripes, whether they're table top or electronic, don't care about products. We work on promises, and if they don't pan out we get upset, for about a week, and then we move on to the next promise and the next and the next.
Pre-ordering, Early Access, Kickstarter, Indieagogo, all these things do not deliver anything other than Promises. Will some of these be fulfilled? Yes, indubitably, but never as intended, and never on time. But Gamers don't care, they hear the next 'cool thing' and jump onto the bandwagon, hoping to be 'special' enough to get something. If not, we just try again, and again, and again
In contrast, I've kickstarted a bunch of things, and only one or two are what I'd consider "absolute failures". It's mostly about research and knowledge. If someone is part of a community, has a defined product, has it in a stage you can review (rough drafts of rules, etc.), is from a reputable company, you can make an informed judgment.
A lot of RPG kickstarters are just kind of "wouldn't it be cool if we could do X?" And the answer is often not quite so simple.
But yeah, very satisfied with Kickstarter as a whole. Two of my favorite games come from there.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;845187Investments promise a share of the profits. Kickstarters do not.
Usually, but not necessarily. The law assumes that any legal thing can be made the subject of a contract.
But that's about as deep as I care to go into it. Long story short, I never put more money in a Kickstarter than I'd be willing to kiss goodbye... usually about the price of two or three beers.
I've never supported a KS, largely coz of the Horror stories I've heard of and seen.
However, if I did, I'd certainly do my research on the person starting it.
I've been burned a couple of times buying PC games on early access or a pre-order.
Namely, I pre-ordered X:Rebirth 1 day before release, thinking it was going ok and then on release it was a total mess. They'd completely lied about what state it was in and some of the features.
The other one was I pre-ordered elite Dangerous based on some absolute promises they'd made, such as Offline play and a few other things.
I'll never buy into a pre-order on anything again unless I go into with the attitude that it might no matter what they say, it may change drastically from what they promised.
Still, after saying that, there are a few trusted publishers/creators of PC games, RPGs etc that have proven themselves to me that I trust them.
Quote from: Dimitrios;845107The beauty of scamming people via KickStarter is that if you can find 5,000 suckers to kick in $20 each, that's $100,000 in your pocket, but who's going to go to the trouble to take legal action over a measly $20?
Effectively, it'd take someone who is a) well-off enough to seek legal action in the first place and b) pissed off enough to come after you based on the principle of the thing. Effectively you're gambling that your pool of 5000 doesn't include anyone who fits that bill.
Of course, most Kickstarters don't just have a $20 tier - they'll also offer more expensive tiers. I'd say that you're orders of magnitude more likely to get sued by someone who paid out thousands of dollars to support your project than by someone who paid $20. Even though they still probably will end up out of pocket when lawyer's fees are taken into account, their desire to see you pay the price of your fuckup/fraud will be all the more burning.
QuoteI get the sense that some people don't even bother to keep track of which KickStarters they've backed, so if some project they supported 2 years ago goes awol they might not even notice.
Kickstarter now provides you with a little checklist associated with your account but yeah, this may be an issue.
Quote from: Bren;845298Is that for just one kickstarter or in aggregate over the past 20 years?
That is just from the last 12 months. 170,000$ taken from 3,500 kickstarter backers, and six unfulfilled kickstarters. (Some of the backers are duplicates, so it's actually fewer people) I'd say it's slightly more than he manages to steal on a yearly basis.
So, how's this argument go that you can steal almost two hundred grand, and you should get away with it because each investor donated less than a grand, go again?
If I stole this much money telling fortunes or scamming women on OKcupid, it would be a crime. How is this not?
Quote from: valis;845497If I stole this much money telling fortunes or scamming women on OKcupid, it would be a crime. How is this not?
No one said it wasn't a crime.
It may be. It may not. I'm not a criminal lawyer and wading through the various kickstarter agreements, contracts, etc. to try and figure out if he is actually in breach of his agreement or if broke any laws is not worth my time. In addition, since he didn't get any of my money, I have no standing to sue him. Fraudulent fortune tellers probably defraud people of millions of dollars annually and those schemes likely fall into other con games. Since this is a bigger societal problem the police and prosecutors are wiling to spend more resources chasing the fortune tellers and con artists while, with one or two exceptions, ignoring kickstarter shenanigans. I strongly suspect that the dollars for RPG kickstarters are dwarfed by the dollars for other types of kickstarters so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a crackdown on RPG kickstarter fraud.
Personally I've more sympathy for the elderly who are defrauded of their retirement money than I have for a bunch of RPGers who gave money to this guy when they should have known better by now.
That Whitman guy has some massive balloon balls. A few weeks ago he was basically trolling anyone on FB who dared to call him out out for his dicknanigans - even showing up in threads started by Ernie Gygax and Jolly Blackburn. In the same threads he would alternately claim that he was only a consultant for other people's Kickstart campaigns or that he needed the funds for his personal living expenses or that he would resolve all of the issues at GenCon this year. The last I saw from him, he was touting his workout routine with videos - presumably bulking up in case someone he'd ripped off tried to carry through on threats to knock his ass out. At the very least, Maliszewski had the good sense to go into seclusion. Either Whitman is a bona fide sociopath, monumentally stupid or both.
This all sounds pretty awful but I would recommend folks carefully phrase blog posts and the like if there are accusations that someone broke the law.
But aside from one or two egregious examples, aren't the vast majority of KS failures completely expected fuck-ups that have always been part of the industry?
Hell, we have an active thread right now about the mismanagement of Chaosium (i.e. prior to their KS clusterfucks), and that's only one of a huge number of industry disasters over the years.
The difference is that KS has shifted the risk to the consumers. But the frequency of failure, has that really changed?
Quote from: Motorskills;845604But the frequency of failure, has that really changed?
I doubt anyone knows for sure if the rate has changed.
Small businesses fail at a massively high rate; 80% according to this article (http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericwagner/2013/09/12/five-reasons-8-out-of-10-businesses-fail/) in Forbes. No one should be surprised when RPG businesses fail since they are almost all very small businesses. And Kickstarters (which typically are small businesses or not even a real business) are unlikely to have a better success rate than a traditional small business.
Quote from: Motorskills;845604But aside from one or two egregious examples, aren't the vast majority of KS failures completely expected fuck-ups that have always been part of the industry?
Hell, we have an active thread right now about the mismanagement of Chaosium (i.e. prior to their KS clusterfucks), and that's only one of a huge number of industry disasters over the years.
The difference is that KS has shifted the risk to the consumers. But the frequency of failure, has that really changed?
Hard to say. I doubt the average consumer knew about the games that failed for the most part.
http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2015/08/ken-whitless-great-hits-you-cant-cancel.html
Another guest post at Tenkar's Tavern, this one by by Christopher Stogdill, a $450 backer, covering the disaster that was the Gen Con "premiere", and his research into the fiasco (no room was reserved according to the hotel, Whitman used his girlfriend as cover, etc.).
If you get the part where talks about checking to see if d20 Entertainment is incorporated in any of the 50 states (it's not), and wonder what's he's alluding to about the listing in Kentucky... well, the name on the filing isn't Ken Whitman. Stogdill filed it himself.
Stogdill continues to talk in the comments as well, including about a potential lawsuit: "I realize you are probably broke and one cannot get blood from a stone, but if this is the case I'm OK with just getting one of your stones."
http://www.barbwryter.kodtweb.com/?p=753
Open Letter posted by Barbara Blackburn (yes, that Blackburn) to Ken Whitman. Very emotional.
Quote from: Pat;847314http://www.tenkarstavern.com/2015/08/ken-whitless-great-hits-you-cant-cancel.html
Another guest post at Tenkar's Tavern, this one by by Christopher Stogdill, a $450 backer, covering the disaster that was the Gen Con "premiere", and his research into the fiasco (no room was reserved according to the hotel, Whitman used his girlfriend as cover, etc.).
If you get the part where talks about checking to see if d20 Entertainment is incorporated in any of the 50 states (it's not), and wonder what's he's alluding to about the listing in Kentucky... well, the name on the filing isn't Ken Whitman. Stogdill filed it himself.
Stogdill continues to talk in the comments as well, including about a potential lawsuit: "I realize you are probably broke and one cannot get blood from a stone, but if this is the case I'm OK with just getting one of your stones."
http://www.barbwryter.kodtweb.com/?p=753
Open Letter posted by Barbara Blackburn (yes, that Blackburn) to Ken Whitman. Very emotional.
Saw these this morning on Facebook. With the number of times we have rallied for those who have been the victims of misguided online attacks (Pundit, Zak S, Desborough), it makes me think that this is a legit use of online influence to bring justice to a criminal like Ken Whitman.
Quote from: jeff37923;847328Saw these this morning on Facebook. With the number of times we have rallied for those who have been the victims of misguided online attacks (Pundit, Zak S, Desborough), it makes me think that this is a legit use of online influence to bring justice to a criminal like Ken Whitman.
No, criminal justice is up to a district attorney somewhere. Civil justice is up to someone like Stogdill, who has the standing to file a lawsuit, and enough endurance to follow through.
Threads like this serve as
warnings. The internet never forgets.
Quote from: Pat;847314http://www.barbwryter.kodtweb.com/?p=753
Open Letter posted by Barbara Blackburn (yes, that Blackburn) to Ken Whitman. Very emotional.
What a shame. It's pretty obvious that the Blackburns aren't fools, they are
decent. Whitman took that decency and squandered it just as much as he squandered all that money.
Damn.
Quote from: Pat;847336No, criminal justice is up to a district attorney somewhere. Civil justice is up to someone like Stogdill, who has the standing to file a lawsuit, and enough endurance to follow through.
Threads like this serve as warnings. The internet never forgets.
I agree with you, however justice in this case to me is neither criminal or civil - it is a concept.
Welp, I don't have an email addy for Ken, he's not in any of my social circles, and I didn't even know he existed until last year when I saw him in the TSR reunion video from GaryCon.
I didn't know many of the TSR staff from the 80's until much later because I had pretty much stopped buying any new RPG stuff from TSR from 1980 on. The last books I bought were the DMG and Fiend Folio when they were first released, and didn't buy anything new from TSR after that until the release of Rules Cyclopedia in 1989.
I'll be sure to keep Ken off my list of RPG authors/publishers to buy from.
James Mal is also back by the way, he's on G+ running games for a small circle of peeps who decided his douchebaggery towards his fellow gamers without any penance was somehow forgiveable...
Quote from: GameDaddy;847492James Mal is also back by the way, he's on G+ running games for a small circle of peeps who decided his douchebaggery towards his fellow gamers without any penance was somehow forgiveable...
Is he demanding payment for this? Because if not then I don't see any need to worry about that.
Quote from: Bren;844969I have no idea about Ken Whitman. I'll look at the link and see if I can care less.
Reporting, law enforcement interest, and societies interest in general will first follow the money and second look at the number of people effected.
There just isn't enough money in RPGs at all, much less in the failed kickstarters, nor enough people who lost money in failed kickstarters to get other people very interested. There are hundreds of other scams that effect more people and involve more money than the tiny fraction of kickstarter scams that comprise the tiny segment of new games in our tiny, tiny hobby. Even as someone with over four decades in the hobby and who has participated in kickstarters, I don't think investigating RPG kickstarter scams is a good use of my tax dollars.
And if there's enough money in it -- trillions of dollars, say -- it's magically no longer a crime at all! There might be a fine, but that's charged to a corporation that pays with a handout from the taxpayers.
But if you're poor and black, "obstructing pedestrian traffic" is not even the most absurd shit going down.
Livin in the USA, anyhow -- might be different in Singapore or someplace.
Quote from: Phillip;847542Livin in the USA, anyhow -- might be different in Singapore or someplace.
A little different: prostitution is legal, chewing gum is for personal use only, the punishment for spitting on the sidewalk includes caning, street food vendors are regularly inspected and licensed, and the chicken rice and pepper crab are great. Sadly, like Sweden, alcohol is highly taxed.
Quote from: saskganesh;845168Contributions are investments, and investments unfortunately sometimes go south.
You can argue about whether or not a Kickstarter qualifies as a preorder (although it virtually always does), but there's no rational way to define it as an "investment". An investment gives you ownership. Kickstarter's terms of service make it literally impossible to give the backers ownership.
Quote from: Daztur;845151Ya that's why I like Patreon, if you're going to pay out money to people it's a lot safer and less stressful to get a steady stream of small stuff where you get to see regularly exactly what you're paying for.
I get a surprising stream of e-mails and comments in response to my Patreon asking why I have it set up to charge per creation instead of just a flat fee each month.
"I'd really like to give you the same amount of money every month, regardless of how much you produce or don't produce. Wouldn't you like to do it that way?"
No. No, I would not.
Quote from: danskmacabre;845429I've never supported a KS, largely coz of the Horror stories I've heard of and seen.
The horror stories are the very tiny minority of Kickstarters.
I've backed 48 kickstarters. 30 have completed successfully. 6 have partially completed (and are continuing to deliver rewards). 9 aren't due to delivery yet. 2 are late, but seeing regular updates.
Only one has been and out-and-out fraud, and that was the "Rebuilding EN World" kickstarter.
Quote from: JamesV;847337What a shame. It's pretty obvious that the Blackburns aren't fools, they are decent. Whitman took that decency and squandered it just as much as he squandered all that money.
Damn.
Well, they could be
both.Look, I'm surprised that Ken Whitman is still around, and I was very surprised that the Blackburns were giving him the time of day, much less the chance to play with their IP. That was foolish, no two ways about it. Ken Whitman had a bad reputation 20 years ago, and nothing he's done in the interim has done anything to repair that.
Quote from: DMK;847641Well, they could be both.
Look, I'm surprised that Ken Whitman is still around, and I was very surprised that the Blackburns were giving him the time of day, much less the chance to play with their IP. That was foolish, no two ways about it. Ken Whitman had a bad reputation 20 years ago, and nothing he's done in the interim has done anything to repair that.
Aye that. I've explained why we gave Ken a second chance else where. I'll just paste that same reply here since I don't have anything to add to it.
The short answer, yes, I should have known better. I've always believed in second chances if I see evidence of a change heart. My wife and I truly thought we had. Her blog above (mentioned above) probably says it better than I ever could but here's my reply...
Quote"Just a quick comment — someone pointed out Dyson Logos' comments. Specifically about my knowing of Ken's reputation prior to this kickstarter. Yes - guilty as charged. Years ago during the RapidPro thing I read a lot of things about Ken/Rapid Pro and his not delivering on product.
Couple of things in the 7/8 years since. Ken went away. Ken came back personally apologizing to several folks in the industry (including myself - though he'd never personally wronged me to my knowledge) and armed with a story about how he had been undiagnosed ADHD which destroyed his marriage and many many friendships. Ken claimed he'd been on meds, getting counseling and that he was keenly interested in rebuilding his rep, making amends and becomgin a 'new man'. I know I'm not the only gaming industry type to be approached with this Ken 2.0.
Anyway Ken invited me and my wife down to Kentucky in 2013 to watch the shoot of Brothers Barbarian Season 2. I had seen BB1 on youtube and knew Ken had pulled that one together. I was impressed by the number of people who managed to bring together to knock out these projects. And I quite enjoyed BB season 1. While on set I met a LOT of people who were hard working, professional and just all around great people. I'm still friends with many of them today. I also got to know Larry Elmore and some of the actors who would later work on KODTLAS. Ken was the center of it all.
Long story short, I left that shoot thinking Ken had changed. He was producing something. I really thought that perhaps he had finally found his niche — making quirkly little film projects. What he was doing was fun and exiting in fact.
Fast forward a bit, when Ken approached us about KODTLAS my first response was that it was going to be a hard sell to my partners. They knew of his reptuation a bit. And we weren't sure he could pull it off. So Ken went out and did a proof of concept piece based on an obscure two page KODT strip (where Brian and Weird Pete are talking in the game store). It was perfect but the casting was dead on and we saw the potential. Looked like Ken had a great feel/appreciation of the property.
He'd completed two seasons of Brother Barbarian (though we didn't know at the time he would never deliver finished/edited episodes of BB2) so it appeared he might actually know what he was doing. So we granted him a license and he proceeded with his kickstarter.
Yes, I was taken in. So were the actors involved, the cinematographer, the crew and virtually everyone else Ken worked with. Unless you've met Ken personally or hung around with him it's hard to explain the charm/charisma this guy has. I've known people who have fallen for his 'new man' routine many times over the years. It's an ability he has.
At GenCon this year while I manned the booth I was shocked as person after person came up with "Ken screwed me too" stories. I'm not really proud of the fact I was duped by this guy. Nor am I happy that others gave him money based on our granting him a license."
Jolly, it's decent of you to come to our little corner of the internet and explain your position.
To my mind, the saddest thing is that so many of us desperately want what he's offering. For my part, Spinward Traveller would have been dream come true. But I didn't back it because I remembered Ken from Traveller 4th edition. Though, admittedly Marc's gotten money from me since then, even though T4 was much more what I wanted than T5 is and I still blame him for T4 because his name was on the cover.
What Ken really needs is a business manager who controls his salary. Because I'm convinced of the man's ability to pitch and push for the creation of things, it's his follow through and his tendency to try to shift the blame onto his victims that sucks.
I don't remember if anyone remembers when he came here explaining the failure of T4 and schilling his new Rapid POD business here a few years back.
Jolly! Don't be hard on yourself. Ken is typical low budget Hollywood.
I was duped by his kind after college, and after some hard knocks, you develop a feel for his breed of scum...but there are hundreds of stories around Tinseltown of guys like Ken who scam studio execs and major producers who have been around the block far too many times to have been fooled. Not just crapping on IPs, but stories of guys walking away with tons of cash. And its odd because some of these scumbags actually have real credits and real achievements mixed in with their scams.
Charisma is weird, and there is an aura effect when you see competent people trust someone, so it makes sense to trust them as well.
Live and learn. When (not if) a real studio or real producer comes knocking at your door to talk about KoDT, the Ken debacle will actually help you deal with Hollyweird because you will be more wary (and sadly more jaded).
Ken is a gazebo...and we know what do with gazebos!