This is what I have said since the beginning about Kickstarters:

Traditionally in a capitalist system, we do this:

1. make something, then
2. sell it

Kickstarters attempt to reverse the order. Give money to no kickstarters at all, then you cannot be disappointed by them.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;845154This is what I have said since the beginning about Kickstarters:

Traditionally in a capitalist system, we do this:

1. make something, then
2. sell it

Kickstarters attempt to reverse the order. Give money to no kickstarters at all, then you cannot be disappointed by them.

Well, except for venture capital, which is an important part of a capitalist economy.

The way I see it, crowdsourcing microsizes the VC process, and because of the tiny amounts typically involved, investors can get in early, without Securities Commissions requiring a detailed prospectus or contributors having to claim informed investor status.

The confusion arises because people think Kickstarter et al are simply online preorder systems... but they are really not that. Contributions are investments, and investments unfortunately sometimes go south. That happens in capitalism all the time.

Obviously the best move is not to invest in things if you can't afford to lose your money. The next best thing, if you are hell bent on investing, is to be as fully informed as is possible about the costs and risks ... I imagine that's tough to do though, as Kickstarter pitches are online brochures and not really micro-business plans. It doesn't usually seem there is enough information available to conduct due diligence.

But I guess the shiny stretch goals override caution and prudence.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;845154This is what I have said since the beginning about Kickstarters:

Traditionally in a capitalist system, we do this:

1. make something, then
2. sell it

Kickstarters attempt to reverse the order. Give money to no kickstarters at all, then you cannot be disappointed by them.

I don't think that's really the case though, not for the last 100+ years. A lot of things are simply too expensive to start up without money from investors.

And in a lot of times, they were shady. My father spent most of the 80s getting people to invest in rather silly schemes. Automated recycling machines, portable greenhouses, smog masks, reflective tape for highways are the ones I remember. (Our basement was full of boxes of all that stuff, well, not the recycling machines, they were the size of an RV)

The difference with Kickstarters is that it's not from investors, but from either patrons of the arts (ideally) or pre-orders (how it's really used).

Quote from: TristramEvans;844777Interesting read. He should do GMS next.

Huh.  GMS is absolutely an asshole -- he was the very first person I blocked in ANY VBulletin-format forum -- but what's he pulled that was shady?

(Not snarking.  Just asking.)

Quote from: saskganesh;845168Well, except for venture capital, which is an important part of a capitalist economy.

The way I see it, crowdsourcing microsizes the VC process, and because of the tiny amounts typically involved, investors can get in early, without Securities Commissions requiring a detailed prospectus or contributors having to claim informed investor status.

The confusion arises because people think Kickstarter et al are simply online preorder systems... but they are really not that. Contributions are investments, and investments unfortunately sometimes go south. That happens in capitalism all the time.

Obviously the best move is not to invest in things if you can't afford to lose your money. The next best thing, if you are hell bent on investing, is to be as fully informed as is possible about the costs and risks ... I imagine that's tough to do though, as Kickstarter pitches are online brochures and not really micro-business plans. It doesn't usually seem there is enough information available to conduct due diligence.

But I guess the shiny stretch goals override caution and prudence.

Shhh, don't upset the myth.

I've invested in half a dozen kickstarters or so, and never once had a failure.  Of course I invest in stuff like the "Kobolds Ate My Baby" reprint and "Girl Genius" reprints and Autarch's latest adventure module and the Judges' Guild reprint, stuff I've heard of from people I've heard of.

The other thing is that other than Kobolds Ate My Baby I've never dropped more than about $15 on anything.  First off, I don't WANT any more shit; I'm happy... in fact, MORE happy... with PDFs.  Also, it's short money, so if it takes six months or a year over schedule for the goodies, I just don't sweat it.

And thirdly, I are a business school gradjyate, and yeah, you're right.... some investments don't pan out.

Investments promise a share of the profits. Kickstarters do not.

Quote from: Ravenswing;845184Huh.  GMS is absolutely an asshole -- he was the very first person I blocked in ANY VBulletin-format forum -- but what's he pulled that was shady?

(Not snarking.  Just asking.)

He first came to my attention in the early aughts when he was caught stealing art from Paul Mason's wife IIRC. I dont recall the details on that incident other than logging it away in the back of my brain as I tend to do with those sorts of things.

Recently it was his Far West Kickstarter, which has followed a pattern somewhat like the Dwimmermount fiasco (including an ailing father), but is even more pernicious in the amount of flat out lies told by GMs to his backers on numerous occasions.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;845098So I take it this would be a bad time to announce my Cyber-Dystopian, Western, Post Zombie Apocalypse Kickstarter then?

Oddly enough, something like that went up on KS a month ago. A Fighting Fantasy style book with cover art by one of the original FF artists no less.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1368488837/westward-dystopia-a-post-apocalyptic-gamebook-rpg/description

Westward Dystopia

Quote from: thedungeondelver;844801I feel this is once again relevant to post:

fuckin A

That's pretty much Kickstarter RPG stuff inna nutshell yeah. Never used KS for games and never will. (Allthough, KS has been used for good things like re-printing less-known Osamu Tezuka stuff.

Quote from: Omega;845203Oddly enough, something like that went up on KS a month ago. A Fighting Fantasy style book with cover art by one of the original FF artists no less.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1368488837/westward-dystopia-a-post-apocalyptic-gamebook-rpg/description

Westward Dystopia

A gender neutral, choose your own adventure book? I might have to toss them a buck.

Nothing remotely close to what I was thinking, though.

Quote from: valis;845039He took over 170,000$.

Is that for just one kickstarter or in aggregate over the past 20 years? If it's just one kickstarter it might be worth some police investigation. But given the usual number of participants and the relatively low dollar thresholds per participant this is probably less significant as a crime segment than those cheap contractors who go door-to-door offering to give you a good price on resealing your driveway, because "we're already in the neighborhood working on a few homes" and then don't do an actual resealing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845186And thirdly, I are a business school gradjyate, and yeah, you're right.... some investments don't pan out.

Some of the most annoyed and annoying people one is likely to encounter in business are small investors. They are really uninformed about risk and almost delusional about their possible rewards. Even as the company marches towards bankruptcy.

Regarding kickstarters, I've done less than 1/2 a dozen. Most were new ventures so the creators were inexperienced. Most were late. All of them tried to communicate why they were late. All eventually delivered the product. All of the amounts were money I could afford to lose and to forget.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;845150If there's one thing that video games taught me, is that Gamers of all stripes, whether they're table top or electronic, don't care about products.  We work on promises, and if they don't pan out we get upset, for about a week, and then we move on to the next promise and the next and the next.

Pre-ordering, Early Access, Kickstarter, Indieagogo, all these things do not deliver anything other than Promises.  Will some of these be fulfilled?  Yes, indubitably, but never as intended, and never on time.  But Gamers don't care, they hear the next 'cool thing' and jump onto the bandwagon, hoping to be 'special' enough to get something.  If not, we just try again, and again, and again

In contrast, I've kickstarted a bunch of things, and only one or two are what I'd consider "absolute failures".  It's mostly about research and knowledge.  If someone is part of a community, has a defined product, has it in a stage you can review (rough drafts of rules, etc.), is from a reputable company, you can make an informed judgment.  

A lot of RPG kickstarters are just kind of "wouldn't it be cool if we could do X?"  And the answer is often not quite so simple.  

But yeah, very satisfied with Kickstarter as a whole.  Two of my favorite games come from there.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;845187Investments promise a share of the profits. Kickstarters do not.

Usually, but not necessarily.  The law assumes that any legal thing can be made the subject of a contract.

But that's about as deep as I care to go into it.  Long story short, I never put more money in a Kickstarter than I'd be willing to kiss goodbye... usually about the price of two or three beers.

I've never supported a KS, largely coz of the Horror stories I've heard of and seen.
However, if I did, I'd certainly do my research on the person starting it.

I've been burned a couple of times buying PC games on early access or a pre-order.
Namely, I pre-ordered X:Rebirth 1 day before release, thinking it was going ok and then on release it was a total mess. They'd completely lied about what state it was in and some of the features.

The other one was I pre-ordered elite Dangerous based on some absolute promises they'd made, such as Offline play and a few other things.

I'll never buy into a pre-order on anything again unless I go into with the attitude that it might no matter what they say, it may change drastically from what they promised.

Still, after saying that, there are a few trusted publishers/creators of PC games, RPGs etc that have proven themselves to me that I trust them.

Quote from: Dimitrios;845107The beauty of scamming people via KickStarter is that if you can find 5,000 suckers to kick in $20 each, that's $100,000 in your pocket, but who's going to go to the trouble to take legal action over a measly $20?

Effectively, it'd take someone who is a) well-off enough to seek legal action in the first place and b) pissed off enough to come after you based on the principle of the thing. Effectively you're gambling that your pool of 5000 doesn't include anyone who fits that bill.

Of course, most Kickstarters don't just have a $20 tier - they'll also offer more expensive tiers. I'd say that you're orders of magnitude more likely to get sued by someone who paid out thousands of dollars to support your project than by someone who paid $20. Even though they still probably will end up out of pocket when lawyer's fees are taken into account, their desire to see you pay the price of your fuckup/fraud will be all the more burning.

QuoteI get the sense that some people don't even bother to keep track of which KickStarters they've backed, so if some project they supported 2 years ago goes awol they might not even notice.

Kickstarter now provides you with a little checklist associated with your account but yeah, this may be an issue.