Quote from: Mistwell;749709Mostly saving throws.

Yep.  5e doesn't have a separate rule or table for everything like AD&D.  Everything is pretty much based on "roll d20, add modifiers, did you beat the difficulty value (DC)?"

Making an attack?  Roll d20, add your bonus, and see if it beats the target's AC.
Getting attacked by a spell?  Roll d20, add your appropriate ability bonus, and see if you made your save (beat the spell's DC)
Got poisoned by that trap?  Roll d20, add your appropriate bonuses, and see if you beat the poison's DC.


You get the point

Quote from: aspiringlich;749706Do the monster's ability scores serve any purpose? Why would anyone need to know what the goblin's wisdom is?

Any time it makes a roll related to Wisdom. Perception and saving throws seem the most likely.

Quote from: Skywalker;749677Most 4e Encounters would include multiple rooms and locations, unlike the room by room description of previous editions. Basically, 4e assumed that a combat would spill out into the surrounding area. For example, the entire ground level of the moathouse in Hommlet is one encounter (or two if you include outside of the keep) rather than 17 rooms as in AD&D1e. As such, the opponents from those additional rooms and locations are included in the set up.

OK, assuming that's true (I have no reason to question it), it sort of gets to my original point.  One of the maps for my adventure is roughly 500 feet by 700 feet.  If each 1" square = 5 ft, then that map would have to be 100 inches wide by 140 inches long.  That's freaking huge.  And that's just for one map.  If I wanted to make 4e compatible battlemaps for just those maps that are 10ft scale, I'd probably have 1-2in of the book thickness just on gigantic fold out maps.

After all, because the battles can spill out for the entire level, you couldn't really do just specific key areas, nor could you draw it on a board unless that board was 12ft by 8ft or something big.

That's what I was getting at then I said I don't see how 4e can support a style of play in AD&D in the context of large dungeons or areas.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749717After all, because the battles can spill out for the entire level, you couldn't really do just specific key areas, nor could you draw it on a board unless that board was 12ft by 8ft or something big.

They can do, but most dungeon based modules are generally presented in areas within the dungeon, by location, faction, theme etc (see Temple of Elemental Evil and Keep on the Borderlands for good examples), and this is what 4e tended to embrace.

Even in those older modules, it is rare that you would have an encounter where the entire dungeon would likely come barrelling down on the party. And if it did, 4e would struggle with it no more or less than earlier editions of D&D IME. You would just break it into chunks, call each encounters even if the combat was ongoing in some fashion. This technique was detailed in the DMG.

Quote from: Skywalker;749702As of last playtest a Goblin was:

That has to be simplified for me. Let me see if I can:

Goblin, lvl 1, XP 10.
#App ?; HP d6 (3); AC 13; #Atk 1; Atk +1 melee, +2 ranged; Dmg (as weapon) melee -1; Mv 30'; Mrl ?.
Mods: Str -1, Dex 0, Con 0, Int 0, Wis -1, Cha -1.
Traits: Bushwhacker, Sneaky, Stealth +5.
AL NE; Lang Common, Goblin; Senses 60' Darkvision.
Items: Mace, Shortbow.

I am still dissatisfied... Part of me does like the idea of Keyword Traits, but that's a new batch of stuff to memorize. At my best I can only reduce the stat line to 3-4 lines, however, as the attribute mods and traits add at least 2 new lines. Number Appearing and Morale are again noticeably absent, much to my displeasure.

Hmm, perhaps they'll create a better shorthand for this.

Quote from: Opaopajr;749728That has to be simplified for me.

The 5e stat block is eerily close to the 3e statblock shown below, with only a few lines being either omitted or incorporated (in italics and green) and with special abilities are spelt out:

QuoteGoblin, 1st-Level Warrior
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
Hit Dice: 1d8+1 (5 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +2 leather armor, +1 light shield), touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/–3
Attack: Morningstar +2 melee (1d6) or javelin +3 ranged (1d4)
Full Attack: Morningstar +2 melee (1d6) or javelin +3 ranged (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +1, Will –1
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +5, Listen +2, Move Silently +5, Ride +4, Spot +2
Feats: Alertness
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Alignment: Usually neutral evil

For comparison:

QuoteGoblin
Small Humanoid (Goblinoid)
Armor Class 13 (leather, shield)
Hit Points 3 (1d6)
Speed 30 ft.
Senses darkvision 60 ft.
Str 8 (–1) Dex 11 (+0) Con 10 (+0)
Int 10 (+0) Wis 9 (–1) Cha 8 (–1)
Alignment neutral evil
Languages Common, Goblin

TRAITS
Bushwhacker: During the first round of combat, the goblin has advantage on attack rolls against any target that has a lower initiative.
Sneaky: The goblin can attempt to hide at the end of a move without using an action.
Stealthy +5: The goblin gains a +5 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks.

ACTIONS
Melee Attack—Mace: +1 to hit (reach 5 ft.; one creature). Hit: 2 (1d6 – 1) bludgeoning damage (minimum 1 damage).
Ranged Attack—Shortbow: +2 to hit (range 80 ft./320 ft.; one creature). Hit: 3 (1d6) piercing damage.

ENCOUNTER BUILDING
Level 1
XP 10

Quote from: Opaopajr;749728That has to be simplified for me. Let me see if I can:

Goblin, lvl 1, XP 10.
#App ?; HP d6 (3); AC 13; #Atk 1; Atk +1 melee, +2 ranged; Dmg (as weapon) melee -1; Mv 30'; Mrl ?.
Mods: Str -1, Dex 0, Con 0, Int 0, Wis -1, Cha -1.
Traits: Bushwhacker, Sneaky, Stealth +5.
AL NE; Lang Common, Goblin; Senses 60' Darkvision.
Items: Mace, Shortbow.

I am still dissatisfied... Part of me does like the idea of Keyword Traits, but that's a new batch of stuff to memorize. At my best I can only reduce the stat line to 3-4 lines, however, as the attribute mods and traits add at least 2 new lines. Number Appearing and Morale are again noticeably absent, much to my displeasure.

Hmm, perhaps they'll create a better shorthand for this.

If you look at my post #56, you can see how I did in the module itself for the snapping turtle.  There is no reason why you can't get by with a couple lines

For the goblin, you could do:

Goblin (lvl 1, XP 10)
Str, Wis, Cha: -1, AC: 13, HP: 3, Init: +0, Spd: 30ft
Attacks: mace (+1, 1d6-1) or shortbow (+2, 1d6)
Abilities: Bushwacker, sneaky, stealth

The thing that stands out from the stat block as useless is languages. Who gives a shit what languages a goblin (or hill giant, or troll) speaks.

Anyone who attempts to parley? Still, Sacrosanct's posted stat-block looks perfectly serviceable.

Quote from: Larsdangly;749693One metric I use to judge how playable I'll find an edition of D&D is to look at the stat block for a simple monster. If a goblin or kobold has a half page stat block, I'm going to fucking hate it. Do we have any clues about the length/complexity of monster stat blocks in 5e?

Here is a goblin from the last Playtest beastiary. No background, just info. Earlier packs had backgrounds as well. It is not an exact transcribe. Just the gist. And I would bet its going to change a little once in print.

Id say wait and see what the MM or equivalent looks like before judging.

QuoteGoblin - and creature type. Small humanoid in this case
AC - 13 - and what wearing
HP - 3 (1d6)
Speed
Senses - type and range

Str Con Dex Int Wis Cha - statted like a PC with mod listed.

Alignment
Languages

TRAITS
Bushwhacker - with short description
Sneaky - with short description
Stealthy - with short description

ACTIONS
Melee Attack - Weapon used, reach, damage, type
Ranged Attack - Weapon used, reach, damage, type

ENCOUNTER BUILDING
Level 1
XP 10

In a way it reminds me of the 2nd ed Gamma World where all the mutants in the beastiary were statted out and you could play them if you so wanted.

I guess morale won't have any place in 5e?

Come to think of it, that's something that 4e would have really benefited from, as a way of cutting short all those interminable grind sessions.

Quote from: aspiringlich;749747I guess morale won't have any place in 5e?

.

I've heard there will be in the final rules, but I'm not sure how they have it worked out

Quote from: Haffrung;749741The thing that stands out from the stat block as useless is languages. Who gives a shit what languages a goblin (or hill giant, or troll) speaks.

I do.  When the players encounter that goblin, whether or not they can communicate in a common language is going to affect the reaction roll...

Quote from: Haffrung;749741The thing that stands out from the stat block as useless is languages. Who gives a shit what languages a goblin (or hill giant, or troll) speaks.

Yeah, because role-playing and conversing with creatures would get in the way of XP :rolleyes:

Quote from: Mistwell;749698Hard to tell.  Mike Mearls said, "I can't talk about specific products, but in my ideal world there's a game called D&D that you find in stores. It's simple enough that you can just start playing, but deep enough that you feel that the next layer of stuff adds to it, rather than replaces it like going from a starter set to a Player's Handbook has traditionally done."

So in his ideal world D&D would be sold in a box, cost $35-$40 for a complete game, and then you'd pay for expansions.

This sounds like the 2010 D&D Gamma World box, which is a complete (10 levels detailed, and easy to expand) game in a modest sized A5 softcover, plus maps, tokens and character sheets. I don't think that game sold very well because (a) they crippled it with a tack-on CCG, (b) it's not the D&D brand - though actually it's compatible with 4e and could be used for crossovers and (c) it was practically unsupported, zero magazine support and just a couple expansions.

But I think D&D could do extremely well with a similar 10-level game in a similar box at a similar price point. They seem to have no intention of doing that though; instead it's $50 Player's Handbooks, $150 for the three books (and the three books of 4e were pretty incomplete). Three books at $20 each worked great in 2000, but I don't think three books at $50 each is going to do great in 2014.