Quote from: LibraryLass;749422Speaking even as someone who mostly enjoyed 4e for its intended purpose...

It's much, much better at being that thing you just said.

It is good for this purpose, but one of the reasons I never really jumped on the 4E bus is that I have some old table top skirmish games I think actually got that side of things even better. If you really play melee/wizard/TFT you'll find it is at least as tactical and nuanced as 4E but runs fast and is (to me) more fun.

Quote from: Haffrung;749397That's fair enough. I like to have published support for my games these days.

I'm pretty sure more stuff has been published for osr games in the past 5 years than wotc has managed to do for 4e or 5e.  Hell, Frog God by themselves out produces wotc in quantity and quality of modules.

Quote from: aspiringlich;749410Strangely enough, just as the final nail is about to be driven into 4e's coffin, I'm developing an interest in having another go at it, not as Dungeons and Dragons (which it isn't) but as it's own thing: a combat skirmish game with a tightly integrated mechanical system.

I haven't read any of the encounters stuff but from what I hear they sound like they might be a fun way to kill a few weekends when there isn't a campaign going.

I had once planned to sell off my 4e stuff but recently I've decided to hang onto it.

Quote from: mhensley;749452I'm pretty sure more stuff has been published for osr games in the past 5 years than wotc has managed to do for 4e or 5e.  Hell, Frog God by themselves out produces wotc in quantity and quality of modules.

The 4e D&D Gamma World boxed set was 40$ and a complete game really, aside from the parts locked up in the CCG. and when it came out on amazon it was around 25$ or so pre-order.

So a 20$ D&D starter could be just like BX, a playable game levels 1-3 or so.

I have seen a few forum posts of folks saying "Oh I'm running <$CLASSIC_D&D_MODULE> with Next right now - with no changes at all."

I'm wondering one if that is 100% true and two is it true in reverse; can I buy D&D Next adventures and run them for AD&D without modifying them mechanically at all.

That will be a good test for me.  I might not buy the next D&D, but can I buy adventures.

And, will the produce setting-free ones or at least ones that are light enough on the setting to easily drop in to Greyhawk and so forth.

Quote from: Mistwell;749306That box is significantly more money. 75% more expensive.

And compared to the crippleware that WotC has produced in beginner sets, well worth every penny.

Where are you getting the price for a 5E starter set for making the comparison? Or is this just your standard White Knight kneejerk?

Face it, WotC has dug themselves a hole and must make an effort to climb out of it. Nobody's fault but their own. Paizo is the competition, if WotC makes a poor showing in their products, then WotC is going to lose.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;749509I have seen a few forum posts of folks saying "Oh I'm running <$CLASSIC_D&D_MODULE> with Next right now - with no changes at all."

I'm wondering one if that is 100% true and two is it true in reverse; can I buy D&D Next adventures and run them for AD&D without modifying them mechanically at all.

That will be a good test for me.  I might not buy the next D&D, but can I buy adventures.

And, will the produce setting-free ones or at least ones that are light enough on the setting to easily drop in to Greyhawk and so forth.

Id have to say anyone claiming they ran an AD&D module with Next with "no changes" was lying or were being misquoted. Or possibly the early version was more compatible.

Just a quick check with the first Next monster the Ankheg and the AC is different, HD is different, attack damage is reduced, exp is reduced.

You'd have to at the very least convert an AD&D monsters AC. And then figure out how AD&D HD work vs Next's monster level.

And that means that you'd have to convert the other way as well. and if its a new monster in Next then you cant just replace it with its older counterpart.

Otherwise I think youd be able to run the modules without much else to change. Havent tested that theory yet.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;749509I have seen a few forum posts of folks saying "Oh I'm running <$CLASSIC_D&D_MODULE> with Next right now - with no changes at all."

I'm wondering one if that is 100% true and two is it true in reverse; can I buy D&D Next adventures and run them for AD&D without modifying them mechanically at all.

That will be a good test for me.  I might not buy the next D&D, but can I buy adventures.

And, will the produce setting-free ones or at least ones that are light enough on the setting to easily drop in to Greyhawk and so forth.

It's really easy to run old modules with 5e - just substitute the monsters with ones from 5e or just change AC's on the fly and that's usually close enough to work ok.  

The problem with the published 5e modules is that they are firmly set in the FR and are part of a storyline.  Not so easy to just plop into your own setting or campaign IMO.

Quote from: Omega;749516Id have to say anyone claiming they ran an AD&D module with Next with "no changes" was lying or were being misquoted. Or possibly the early version was more compatible.

Just a quick check with the first Next monster the Ankheg and the AC is different, HD is different, attack damage is reduced, exp is reduced.

You'd have to at the very least convert an AD&D monsters AC. And then figure out how AD&D HD work vs Next's monster level.

And that means that you'd have to convert the other way as well. and if its a new monster in Next then you cant just replace it with its older counterpart.

Otherwise I think youd be able to run the modules without much else to change. Havent tested that theory yet.

Quote from: mhensley;749521It's really easy to run old modules with 5e - just substitute the monsters with ones from 5e or just change AC's on the fly and that's usually close enough to work ok.  

The problem with the published 5e modules is that they are firmly set in the FR and are part of a storyline.  Not so easy to just plop into your own setting or campaign IMO.

So basically...I can "run them with no changes" as long as I alter all the mechanical stuff and am willing to run FR...pass.

To be fair though, the adventures published so far have been part of the organised play buildup to the 5E release, so there's no saying what post-release adventures will be like.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;749546So basically...I can "run them with no changes" as long as I alter all the mechanical stuff and am willing to run FR...pass.

Well, it's not AD&D, so you will have to change something.  It's just how much are you willing to do.  I've done a lot of running AD&D modules with 5e, and it's so easy I can do it on the fly as I go.  Pretty much just drag and drop 5e monster stats into the AD&D module, and change things like saving throws into 5e's universal DC mechanic.  Easy peasy.

Now, going the other direction I haven't done because I haven't played any of 5e's official modules with AD&D.  However, I have written a superdungeon using 5e's mechanics (generic game world), and I don't see any issue whatsoever with doing the same thing: drag and drop monster stats from AD&D into the module and play as is.  The campaign is designed to not be used with battlemaps or minis at all (unless you want to), and it works just fine in 5e.

If there is any sort of OGL at all, I think you'll find lots of 5e adventures that aren't tied to FR.

*Edit*  Actually, here is a page from my superdungeon.  Decided for yourself how hard it would be to run this through an AD&D ruleset.  I imagine you'd just replace the monster stat block and that's it.

Aren't all editions of the D&D monster manuals rather extensive? Could it be as easy as swapping out a 5e Beholder's stat block with the AD&D one?

Sure a total conversion might be a bit more complicated than that, but as for creatures...

Quote from: mhensley;749452I'm pretty sure more stuff has been published for osr games in the past 5 years than wotc has managed to do for 4e or 5e.  Hell, Frog God by themselves out produces wotc in quantity and quality of modules.

I disagree. Goodman Games adventures vary wildly in quality, and they have cheap and ugly production values (though Castle Whiterock was quite good). I've given up trying to sort the wheat from the chaff. I liked Frog God Games back in their Necromancer days. But I've found their books now to be behind the times in the layout and production values, but priced as premium products. I returned the Slumbering Tsar because it simply wasn't up to snuff for a $120 book. Terrible layout and readability.

WotC don't have a great track record of publishing adventures. But several products from their late 4E era really impressed me. The Neverwinter Nights campaign book is one of the best sandbox campaigns I've ever come across, content-wise, and without a doubt the best in presentation and ease of use at the table. Vor Rukoth is another old-school sandbox site. Gardmore Abbey is an excellent location-based adventure site. The Nentir Vale adventures wouldn't have been out of place in TSR era D&D.

So I'm pretty optimistic that WotC can publish adventures for 5E that will be superior to the stuff being put out by Goodman and Frog God*. And I won't have to completely revamp the stat blocks, the way I do for the adventures by OSR publishers.

* I actually wish Frog God would move to supporting S&W and D&D Next, instead of S&W and Pathfinder. Next is much more of an old-school system than Pathfinder, which Bill Webb himself has admitted he doesn't like and doesn't play.

Actually dungeondelver, this is probably a better example to use when talking about the compatibility between 5e and AD&D.  Because 5e isn't nearly dependent on tactical combat, there is a lot more freedom in maps.  I can't see how I would be able to do this in 4e unless I had 100 pages of 5' grid maps to represent these areas, and this image is only about 1/2 of the total adventure; the main temple complex isn't even on this image.  Also, many of the encounter rooms are roving; they don't just sit in one place waiting for the PCs to stumble on them so if you used a battlemap, you'd have to have one big enough to represent the entire dungeon levels.  Not sure how I would be able to do that with a map this large if using the grid.

So to answer your question, I'm sure that I'm not the only one who is using the entire 5e ruleset to create adventures in the "AD&D vein", so-to-speak, and thus being very easy to convert to AD&D use.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749572I can't see how I would be able to do this in 4e unless I had 100 pages of 5' grid maps to represent these areas, and this image is only about 1/2 of the total adventure; the main temple complex isn't even on this image.  Also, many of the encounter rooms are roving; they don't just sit in one place waiting for the PCs to stumble on them so if you used a battlemap, you'd have to have one big enough to represent the entire dungeon levels.

This works they same in 4e that it does in any edition when miniatures are being used- you draw the area on your erasable battle mat if/when the need arises.