You know, the fantastic MEGS mechanics created by Mayfair Games which is out of print? With even copies of The Blood of Heroes selling for over a hundred dollars is there any legal means to give this great supers system an affordable version?

Bugger, did not read the whole post before answering. Yeah, why not make a retro-clone? I would buy it if it was good. There is no legal problems with using the system, but I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 14, 2022, 07:18:31 PM
You know, the fantastic MEGS mechanics created by Mayfair Games which is out of print? With even copies of The Blood of Heroes selling for over a hundred dollars is there any legal means to give this great supers system an affordable version?

Theorically you could use the mechanics, just not their expression, which means lots of writting and you would also need to avoid anything of the trade dress:

Layout, proper names when not a common term, and other stuff.

It's not an easy task and it would need a team and then to pay for some lawyers to check if you're not open for a lawsuit.

Sooo, you're saying there might be a chance. (Dumb & Dumber reference)

Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 14, 2022, 07:40:23 PM
Sooo, you're saying there might be a chance. (Dumb & Dumber reference)

I'm saying it can be done, it's not easy nor fast.

I'm running a long term campaign for the Blood of Heroes/DC heroes 3e system that's veered away from the tables and charts of the original (and uses D12s instead of D10s with opposed rolls for everything). I've long considered writing it up and putting it out there as it's not broken after what, six or seven years of play but there are games coming out that are starting to use some of the DCHeroes/BoH mechanics. Ascendant, M&M 3e to name a couple, am sure there are more.

As mentioned above, the IP is the main thing to strip out. The system itself is copyright DC Comics (or was as far as Ray Winninger knew when he commented about it) but that didn't stop the Pulsar/Blood of Heroes guys putting their own game out with the numbers filed off and it's pretty much word for word in some places.

Change enough of the game to make it compatible with the existing stats and put it out there...?

Funny you mention Ascendent. That is what put me on to the idea. I've been playing The Blood of Heroes for over a year now, first time with the MEGS system, and for me it is the best super hero roleplaying game I have ever used. I perused Ascendent and I found it... brutal. It has taken the best parts of Marvel Super Heroes and DC Heroes and made the whole thing suck more than Champions. An achievement I would not think possible.

After more than a year of play I have not had to make one house rule nor change anything in the game mechanics. In short, the rules have never failed me. Now that the game goes for over one hundred dollars the only way I can turn new players onto the game is offer something practical. 

Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 15, 2022, 08:51:01 AMIt has taken the best parts of Marvel Super Heroes and DC Heroes and made the whole thing suck more than Champions. An achievement I would not think possible.

Out of curiosity: what do you mean by that? I haven't had the chance to check out Ascendant, but I've read in a review that it's overly complicated and includes pages long minute details for EVERYTHING. Which is really not my bag, despite some of these games having elements I like/want in my games. I've read Champions 5e and Complete and I found it way more complicated than I thought it needed to be.

You kind of answered your own question. What you have said is my opinion of the whole thing. You should take those reviews you read as spot on and reliable.

Now, DC Heroes and the MEGS system may be too complicated for you. It does have crunch. But for me, it is perfect.

Yeah, I'm fine with medium crush, cuz some amount of crush is inevitable with the degree of options I want in a game. But Champions/Hero takes it to the next level, and its not even the options that kills it, but the rules complexity.

Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 14, 2022, 07:18:31 PM
You know, the fantastic MEGS mechanics created by Mayfair Games which is out of print? With even copies of The Blood of Heroes selling for over a hundred dollars is there any legal means to give this great supers system an affordable version?

I was a huge fan of the MEGS system. I'd love to see a good retro-clone of it.

Hm.. If that's the case, I must sell my Blood of Heroes book on ebay.

I used to think MEGS was the pinnacle of supers game design. Ascendant has taken that place. It gives me everything MEGS did well and exceeds it by giving us a true, logarithmic role-playing game that does emulate comic book physics better than any other rpg while also giving us a dice system that is very fast in play. Game play is smooth. Everyone has the Chart so once you have your numbers, all of which you have provided to you, then you just apply them to the Chart and one die roll later, you're good. All Players have to do is roll the d100, look on the Chart, and announce what color they got.

Yeah Ascendant gives us a lot of tables and formulas, but it also gives us the numbers to plug into those formulas. So it's really just plug n play. If your character has a combat attack rating of 12 and your opponents defense is 10, that's a +2 result value. You roll on the Chart, cross reference the +2, and look for the result. A White fails. Green is normal hit. Yellow is double damage. Orange is quadruple, and red is 8x damage. These results are your five different success thresholds, which apply to everything in the game. If your character is in a social situation and you're being Charming, and the situation requires a die roll, you take your Active Value (of your attribute/skill) and compare it to the targets Resistance Value. This gives you the Result Value. Make d100 roll, look up that RV on the Chart. You're done.

If you're in a Race with two vehicles, you compare both vehicles Speed Values. You won't even need to roll if there is a difference in values since its obvious which is faster. If one has a Speed of 8 and the other a 10, the Speed 10 is 4x faster since every SP Value higher is double the previous SP Value. If it's a Chase you could roll, since chases often involve more than just getting to the finish line. The process is the same. Find the Values, cross reference on the Chart. Done.

This applies for everything. Doing Investigations, figuring out how long in Time something takes, dealing with Bombs, Natural Disasters, dealing with Social Influences like the news media or public relations, Travel distances and Time, etc. This game gives you both the formulas and numbers. All you have to do is plug the SP (Number) Values into the formulas and roll on the Chart and Apply results. That's it.

I It's not as hard as it may appear to be at first. That's the first learning curve. Don't be intimidated by what appears to be a super crunchy presentation.

I've heard very good things about Acendant.

Quote from: RebelSky on March 15, 2022, 05:15:34 PM
I used to think MEGS was the pinnacle of supers game design. Ascendant has taken that place.

Not really the point of the post. But thanks for your thoughts. Please keep in mind I would hate to see this thread turned into one of the incredibly boring and redundant and plentiful "this is the best game for X" threads.

If you have any knowledge on copyright law and how people have been successful producing legal retro clone though, please pontificate away.

Quote from: the crypt keeper on March 15, 2022, 10:44:05 PM
If you have any knowledge on copyright law and how people have been successful producing legal retro clone though, please pontificate away.

I've got an old page on game systems and copyright.

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/copyright/

As some others have said, you can legally copy game mechanics as long as you don't use the same wording to express those mechanics. However, an important point is that they can try to sue you anyway, which could make it difficult even if you would eventually win the lawsuit. That seems unlikely to me, though.

A recent example of a copyright-dodging clone is RPGPundit's game "Lords of Olympus" which is a clone of Amber Diceless without having copyright.