As per suggestion in the thread about Chaosium and their so called OGL I start a new topic for people who love all things horror and horror rpgs especially. In that thread I made references to an imagined rpg based on older horror from the 70s and 80s, in my mind the golden era of horror. The horror I grew up with, love and collect to this day.
Since what I'm aiming for is very hard to put into words, unless you are a hardcore horror fan yourself, I will begin by using a few images to discuss the points of ambience, layout, etc. A new rpg based on older horror would obviously need to have the visuals to even begin to challenge something as deeply rooted as Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu.
So the start of the discussion is a comparison of poster art/layout/general art of old horror and the art of Nu-Chaosium's products. We begin with some Chaosium stuff:
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And now some more oldschool horror stuff:
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I have so many other examples, but I won't flood the thread with poster art just yet. To get things off the ground...I want you to think about what these pieces of art convey, do they capture a certain ambience? What audience are they intended for? Whatever that pops up in your mind.
I think the challenge for a generic horror game is the "So what do you do with it?" question. CoC, and also WoD, the other successful horror RPG (if you agree that it's horror), both have a clear hook. It's pretty easy to explain what a standard CoC or WoD campaign looks like, just like it's easy to explain the standard dungeon crawl scenario of D&D.
The other thing is that the prospect of an open ended ongoing campaign is a draw for a lot of people. It's easy to envision a one off slasher movie based game, but harder to make that work as a campaign.
That said, I'm a huge fan of horror, particularly of the 70s/80s variety, so I would be interested to to see the sort of game you seem to be describing.
Have you checked out Chill? I don't really know it myself but maybe it's cool.
Some other pulp games have this sort of horror as an element. I don't know about any who specialized in it though (but check the cover of Astounding Adventures for instance, although the system would be basically CoC)
I'm not really a fan of the horror genre per se, but I used to be back in the 80's when I was a kid, though I got bored with it when none of it would really frighten me and I got tired of the slasher film formula. One of the challenges of creating a generic horror RPG (which I think @Dimitrios was hinting at) is defining a consistent presentation for the game that could apply across the entire genre.
In the case of D&D you have common themes, tropes and character archetypes that could easily be adapted across a broad range of heroic fantasy regardless of sub genre--whether it's high-fantasy, sword & sorcery, post apocalyptic fantasy or dark fantasy. The specific "feel" for these worlds may vary, but you could always fit warriors, specialists (thieves/rogues) or spell casters in just about any of them. The same cannot be said about horror, however, since the horror genre can be more varied than (and even inclusive of) heroic fantasy.
In heroic fantasy there will always be powerful characters capable of tackling major threats, even in grim dark settings. In a horror world there could be powerful characters--if it's a grim dark setting about warriors fighting otherworldly horrors--or everyone could be a wimpy normal thrust into circumstances beyond their understanding or ability to handle. They could also be brainy academics in a Victorian-type setting or paranormal investigators in a modern world. In some horror stories most of characters might not be intended to survive at all.
There just isn't a common thread across the entire horror genre the way there is with heroic fantasy. CoC and WoD work because it narrows down what the world is about and the types of horror adventures characters are likely to find themselves in those worlds, but those themes will not work for other horror settings or stories. That's why CoC will probably never be dethroned. The most you could hope for is creating a generic "horror-investigation" type game, which would work for that style of horror, but not others.
BTW, I forgot to ask; what on earth is going on in that second image in the OP?
The Unisystem can be used and tailored to different settings, and not just horror. The various templates for hero types could be limited to the ones you want in your campaign (low powered civilians, semi competent survivors and professional monster hunters), or mixed up like in the Cinematic subsytem. The various sourcebooks for AFMBE made it possible to play in Noir, WWF, Wild West, SciFi or Fantasy settings, and allowed even to leave out zombies (and replace them with other supernatural threats). And besides AFMBE Unisystem also had Terra Primate, Witchcraft and Armageddon for different types of horror.
Too bad Eden lost the ball a decade ago, or never could publish a generic Unisystem book with setting supplements. I always thought it could have been a contender.
But I think the big head start CoC had, was that it was based of BRP/Runequest and so could pull in an existing base of fantasy players. What popular fantasy system today could be repurposed for contemporary horror?
Yes, I'm aware of Chill, Cryptworld and other horror rpgs. The first edition of Chill goes for the Hammer kind of horror, and we played that game alot although the system was a bit odd/clunky. But the new versions (apart from the new Swedish version) has one thing in common. They are butt ugly. There is no layout to speak of, the art is bad. Good art and layout sells horror. Remember the VHS rental days when you picked some real horror stinkers but the cover and the blurb on the back made you pick them?
Now, I see a clear difference between the cover art of the modern Call of Cthulhu/Pulp Cthulhu adventures and the covers of old horror movies, novels and comics. First off, they are made by masters of the craft of course. Second, there is no doubt whatsoever that the art portrays something from the horror genre. Mystery, blood, murder, monsters, creepy stuff, mature themes. It's all there in the old covers in one way or another. The fonts themselves, the taglines, etc. Good horror art never confuses you, regardless if it's a werewolf flick, a backwoods slasher, a psychological chiller or a movie about demonic possession. You know it's horror, you know what to expect.
Now compare 70's and 80's horror covers to Shadows over Stillwater for instance. It has a monster and people running away on the cover, and it's a western setting. But it's not horror. The monster doesn't look creepy or horrific. In fact, it would probably be better not to show it fully. The palette is not moody or scary. Clear, happy colours and daylight. The selection of fonts is uninspired shit. And of course, Chaosium uses the same interior layout to most of their CoC stuff these days (which is lazy as hell). I would fire the art director at once. It's clear that Chaosium want a monster and some western stuff, but they also want something safe. No body horror, no blood and gore, nothing really sinister or weird. A kid friendly betrayal of the horror genre itself. They want Miss Marple combined with some globetrotting and tentacles. Tea and scones, inclusiveness and cultists in every corner. Rinse and repeat. The movie The Thing is Lovecraftian. Chaosium's Reign of Terror is not.
Western horror is pretty rare, but imagine what an old poster would look like envisioned by someone with real horror in mind. Western movies had some very beautiful poster art (especially spaghetti westerns). Now combine it with something creepy in the old style and you would have a real winner. The poster of Pale Rider for instance combined with true horror elements.
A generic horror game might not have a similar hook like the one Call of Cthulhu used to have, but are abandoning more and more with Nu-Chaosium authors that even seem to have some kind of personal vendetta against Lovecraft (like Chris Spivey) while cashing in on the Mythos. But the hook of a "generic" horror game could be that it pulls no punches and the creative freedom it brings not being tied to a certain Mythos or setting.
A beautiful, new rpg that allows you to play a Friday the 13th-like slasher scenario? Or maybe something more in the vein of a giallo or a thriller - like the hunt for a serial killer or a psychological rollercoaster like Spielbergs Duel? A game that allows you to explore the vampire legends of the Karstein castle, be some frontiersman discovering the true horror that collects human heads in Nahanni valley or a French wolf hunter who tracks what terrorizes 18th century Gevaudan?
Quote from: Trond;1127233BTW, I forgot to ask; what on earth is going on in that second image in the OP?
Some guy in a dress is being whipped at a party.
Dethroning doesn't really seem to be a thing that happens or lasts in this industry.
Still, I'd think that you'd really have to nail the zeitgeist of the present time to dethrone Call of Cthulhu. You'd need to speak to the now not the past.
Call of Cthulhu has the advantage of the Cthulhu Mythos, which has become so popular it's become a cliche.
The disadvantage, of course, is that excludes everything that's not Cthulhu Mythos. But how big a market is that? Hammer Horror, Universal Pictures, Edgar Allen, slashers, schlocky B-movies... it's niche, and an RPG based on a pastiche of those old properties would be a niche of a niche. I think it's possible for a new game to break out in the horror genre, but it would have to speak to modern players. It could be retro-inspired, but it would have to be something new. And it would have to have it's own distinct flavor, instead of just being a melange of yesteryear. It's very unlikely, though.
Quote from: Pat;1127240Call of Cthulhu has the advantage of the Cthulhu Mythos, which has become so popular it's become a cliche.
A twisted version of it is popularized and cliche'd, but I don't think HPL's work as source of gaming need be. Lovecraft in gaming needs to go through the 'demythologizing' it did in literary analysis.
Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1127237Some guy in a dress is being whipped at a party.
OK I was wondering if I was missing the horror element, but I guess that is pretty frightening :)
No, I don't think so. I love horror gaming but its scope is somewhat limiting and most gamers just use it as an occasional diversion from their usual fare. There are already horror games that fill the available niches. Many have mechanics superior to CoC, but that hasn't mattered at all. CoC is simple enough and its themes well-enough understood that it works fine for what most people want in a horror game.
I think I get what you are showing with the art. I too would favor something that actually looks frightening. But any company large enough to out-market Chaosium will be similarly averse to being too edgy with either artwork or themes in general.
For a campaign type game, I could see Supernatural, Scooby Doo, X-Files being models to follow.
Quote from: Vidgrip;1127248I think I get what you are showing with the art. I too would favor something that actually looks frightening. But any company large enough to out-market Chaosium will be similarly averse to being too edgy with either artwork or themes in general.
Older CoC books at times had artwork that was less videogamey/cartoony and "adventurous fun" than seems to be the norm for 7E.
Quote from: Lynn;1127245A twisted version of it is popularized and cliche'd, but I don't think HPL's work as source of gaming need be. Lovecraft in gaming needs to go through the 'demythologizing' it did in literary analysis.
RPGs tend to be grab-bags or kitchen sinks, where everything is mixed together. You might want to play a pure HPL game, but I don't think that's the majority.
No because coc has name recognigion.
Quote from: Trond;1127228Have you checked out Chill? I don't really know it myself but maybe it's cool.
Chill is cool. It's in the title! :eek:
For a good while Beyond the Supernatural was a nice alternative to CoC. I've actually GMed BTS far more than CoC. Its a pretty solid system and pre-Rifts so no mega-damage blues.
Other personal favourites are...
Masque of the Red Death for D&D. Gothic Earth done surprisingly well. I like this and BTS quite a bit.
TORG:Orrorsh: Victorian era with horror elements from gothic, lovecraftian, and movies. Not as well thought out as Masque. But still a fairly good setting.
Quote from: Omega;1127265Masque of the Red Death for D&D. Gothic Earth done surprisingly well.
I like the setting more than the rules, though since it's a variation on old school D&D, it's not hard to hack.
One other thing to consider. BRP is a really fantastic system. Simple and elegant, tight and flexible and infinitely tweakable.
Quote from: David Johansen;1127269One other thing to consider. BRP is a really fantastic system. Simple and elegant, tight and flexible and infinitely tweakable.
Well, there are plenty of games that use some variant of the BRP system. The game might use a D20 instead. First edition Kult was based on BRP with some slight changes.
As for the product having to speak to a modern crowd...well, first off the love of things retro isn't over yet. Tales from the loop will become a TV-series. And I think that more and more people are starting to look at older horror movies since the new ones are uninspired shit with jumpscares, silly dolls, nuns with hanging jaws, CGI and badly Photoshopped posters. People are starting to appreciate practical effects wizardry again and ambience. Older quality horror movies were full of ambience.
Older Chaosium had no problems putting out a cover like the one below:
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Now that's classic body horror. Lovecraft was all about body horror. The fear of having tainted family genes, monstrous cancerous growths, slowly turning into a ghoul, etc. It would never even cross Chaosium's pastel-cursed minds today. They are more worried about skin colour and gender today:
"Are half of the pregens women? Good. You've got to have black characters too. So what if it the adventure takes place in inner Mongolia? You've got to have black characters, ok?? A black woman that has better stats than the obligatory white prunefaced professor pushing 90. And a black dude who's a boxing champion from Kenya. Because everybody knows that boxing is huge in Kenya. Chris Spivey suggested it and that's the stuff we want! Ok, whatabout monsters then? We need a friendly ghoul, because ghouls are, you know...friendly chaps with glasses. Yep. They eat dead rotting people? Nah, this one just read books, got that!? Just like Lynne Hardy and MOB. Ok, slap on some buzzing Mi-Go and their brain jars too. Brains in jars. That has to be horror, right? Roll for Sanity, ladies! And some Deep Ones. We need Deep Ones too. Setting? Wtf are you talking about? This is a globetrotting campaign. Professor Plum just needs a portable iron lung for all the field work in the Amazon basin, Iceland and Tibet. Oh, and we need a dozen cults too. Yep, people that are batshit insane and just hangs around in some cave worshipping serpent people and their cool high tech weaponry. Don't linger too much on the tech, because sooner or later someone will question how they can achieve anything so delicate with those velociraptor claws. Never mind that they have to tilt their heads to the side like birds to see anything they're soldering. Ok, last but not least...we need a trippy Dreamlands part too, with tons of talking cats, because talking cats are really cool."[ATTACH=CONFIG]4291[/ATTACH]
Now, why isn't the gif working?
Quote from: Dimitrios;1127227I think the challenge for a generic horror game is the "So what do you do with it?" question. CoC, and also WoD, the other successful horror RPG (if you agree that it's horror), both have a clear hook. It's pretty easy to explain what a standard CoC or WoD campaign looks like, just like it's easy to explain the standard dungeon crawl scenario of D&D.
The other thing is that the prospect of an open ended ongoing campaign is a draw for a lot of people. It's easy to envision a one off slasher movie based game, but harder to make that work as a campaign.
That said, I'm a huge fan of horror, particularly of the 70s/80s variety, so I would be interested to to see the sort of game you seem to be describing.
The question you should ask with a more open horror game is "what CAN'T you do with it?". Imagine creative people writing all kinds of different horror scenarios and putting it up in something similar to the Miskatonic Repository (that btw doesn't allow you to use all mythos creatures from 7th edition). Campaigns are quite ill-suited for real horror unless you are playing characters that belong to some secret society that fights evil forces, the Van Helsing, S.A.V.E. kind of game. Or more down to earth stuff, like trying to capture the Zodiac killer.
But is playing 70+ sessions of Horror on the Orient Express really experiencing a true horror game? Any campaign that long is so stretched out it's silly and filled with so much fat it couldn't make Beach 2070. The campaign also lacks some real horror fundamentals, like isolation for instance. The Investigators aren't even on the train all that much. A real horror scenario involving a train would be like Horror Express from 1972. Isolation is a powerful factor often utilized in horror. It might be a train, the Nevada desert, the Alaskan wilds, a snowed in and haunted hotel or a research camp in the Antarctic.
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This is a cover of an American-based scenario collection for CHOCK, the Swedish CHILL, that I'm working on, alongside other scenarios. It might seem simple in design but alot of time has been invested in the careful selection of 70s fonts. I didn't just slap it together and I actually try to put some effort into interior design too. Here are examples from another scenario with some pregens and other stuff:
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I agree with that there doesn't seem to be a true horror game. The problem is that horror is fundamentally at odds with how RPGs traditionally work.
RPGs are traditionally violent crime simulators where the PCs kill people, loot corpses, and gain levels for doing so. They're power fantasies. That's a shit format for horror.
By contrast, horror is the opposite of a power fantasy. Horror is about fear, terror, dread, etc. It's about taking away the protagonist's power and putting them into a state of extreme vulnerability. In a typical 70s/80s horror movie, the protagonist is often the sole survivor. In bleaker movies, everybody dies by the end or the protagonist suffers a fate worse than death.
That style lends itself best to short adventures rather than long-running campaigns.
For long running campaigns, you're better off looking at television shows. Those that aren't anthologies typically involve the protagonist(s) being an amateur or professional investigator/detective/etc.
The problem with the art style of the new Chaosium is that it is pulpy rather than horror.
In order to challenge Chaosium, then you need an aesthetic that accurately conveys horror. You need to convince potential players that total party kills are not a bad thing. You need to get them invested in the horror genre.
So I think you should try producing products compatible with GORE and/or Cryptworld to save time. Get writers and artists who understand the horror genre and produce stuff!
Quote from: Dimitrios;1127227I think the challenge for a generic horror game is the "So what do you do with it?" question. CoC, and also WoD, the other successful horror RPG (if you agree that it's horror), both have a clear hook. It's pretty easy to explain what a standard CoC or WoD campaign looks like, just like it's easy to explain the standard dungeon crawl scenario of D&D.
What the heck is the hook of WoD?
Macabre Tales. I bought it. And I absolutely love it.
Its main focus is hardcore Lovecraft investigative style games. Mostly without the PCs having any supernatural aspect to them. But that was also the point. That the game's primary basis is pure Lovecraft in style.
The game is played with two sets of dominos. And the player has to be strategic in how those dominos are spent. Meaning the later you are in that game, the more you want good high-value dominos. The more good dominos you save to the end, the more likely your character faces a positive outcome.
the most common outcomes for characters in Macabre Tales is either death or insanity. Actually surviving and continuing a character is very hard-fought. As the most common application of this game only has the character last just the single story.
The default for this game is one-on-one play. One player, one GM. Though rules for multiple players do exist. Multiple players are not the optimal expression for this game.
This game is really meant to be Lovecraft at its purest. No outside influences. Completely based on just Lovecraft's stories alone.
If that is something you would find appealing. Then I couldn't recommend this game any higher. It's one of the best horror games I own.
Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1127278... (tons of cool ideas and inspiring art) ...
1. Who cares about dethroning? There a TON of 70's/80's horror fans out there. I'm pretty sure Rob Zombie is one. Also, I heard the lead singer of Ice Nine Kills on Sirius today talking about his love of the genre. Instead, I feel like your passion is EXACTLY the ingredient to make a great RPG in the genre.
2. With Delta Green and Legend as foundations, you could easily retro-clone BRP. Toss in some flavor from other open content systems to tune to your heart's desire. It would be OGL of course. :-)
3. If you build it, they will come. THEY. Will come.
Also, you seem to do layout? Do you have a portfolio and/or a rate sheet?
(as an aside I'm working on my generic RPG "heartbreaker" that starts with Legend as a foundation, mixes in D6, True20, Action! System and Fantasy/Spy-craft and a dash of WOIN parts I like to hopefully create something familiar but new.... I retooled from a D6 system to d100 blackjack after seeing how nicely nuChaosium dropped the ball on their notOGL...)
Quote from: trechriron;11272901. Who cares about dethroning? There a TON of 70's/80's horror fans out there. I'm pretty sure Rob Zombie is one. Also, I heard the lead singer of Ice Nine Kills on Sirius today talking about his love of the genre. Instead, I feel like your passion is EXACTLY the ingredient to make a great RPG in the genre.
2. With Delta Green and Legend as foundations, you could easily retro-clone BRP. Toss in some flavor from other open content systems to tune to your heart's desire. It would be OGL of course. :-)
3. If you build it, they will come. THEY. Will come.
Also, you seem to do layout? Do you have a portfolio and/or a rate sheet?
(as an aside I'm working on my generic RPG "heartbreaker" that starts with Legend as a foundation, mixes in D6, True20, Action! System and Fantasy/Spy-craft and a dash of WOIN parts I like to hopefully create something familiar but new.... I retooled from a D6 system to d100 blackjack after seeing how nicely nuChaosium dropped the ball on their notOGL...)
I'm somewhat familiar with Delta Green from actual plays, but I have to check out Legend. And OGL is just fine. Sharing is caring.
As for a portfolio, no I don't have a proper one, but I have done quite a bit anyway. Is your planned Heartbreaker rpg a game in the vein of James Bond or am I way off here?:p
I can't charge people for layout work due to my life situation, me being manbearpig really places me outside any known tax tariffs, but if I like the idea of something maybe I could help out just for some creds. If my name pops up in an rpg, maybe someone will recognize it some day when I sell something on drivethrurpg? But I have to warn you, I'm a lazy sod and I have alot of projects going on.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1127285Macabre Tales. I bought it. And I absolutely love it.
Its main focus is hardcore Lovecraft investigative style games. Mostly without the PCs having any supernatural aspect to them. But that was also the point. That the game's primary basis is pure Lovecraft in style.
The game is played with two sets of dominos. And the player has to be strategic in how those dominos are spent. Meaning the later you are in that game, the more you want good high-value dominos. The more good dominos you save to the end, the more likely your character faces a positive outcome.
the most common outcomes for characters in Macabre Tales is either death or insanity. Actually surviving and continuing a character is very hard-fought. As the most common application of this game only has the character last just the single story.
The default for this game is one-on-one play. One player, one GM. Though rules for multiple players do exist. Multiple players are not the optimal expression for this game.
This game is really meant to be Lovecraft at its purest. No outside influences. Completely based on just Lovecraft's stories alone.
If that is something you would find appealing. Then I couldn't recommend this game any higher. It's one of the best horror games I own.
I will check it out, although I don't like the sound of dominoes, unless it's Domino from Thunderball.:D
Quote from: DocJones;1127250For a campaign type game, I could see Supernatural, Scooby Doo, X-Files being models to follow.
Try Monster of the Week: https://www.evilhat.com/home/monster-of-the-week/
My group found that all the "moves"
- stuff/fluff is easy to ignore and it plays as a routine RPG with a short list of skills.
- It's PBTA to Fate.
Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1127294I will check it out, although I don't like the sound of dominoes, unless it's Domino from Thunderball.:D
Oh, believe me. I was skeptical too about the dominos when I first heard about the game. That's why it took me months of dragging for me to eventually get it.
But after seeing the application of the dominos by reading the book? It won me over. As the dominos make absolute thematic sense. For what the game tries to achieve.
The dominos create a sense of continual tension. Yes, you want to keep your best dominos to the end. But you are also limited to a hand of three at a time. So the ability to save is quite limited.
Also. If you play any double number dominos. The GM gets to keep them and use them against you to ratchet up the difficultly in dramatically challenging moments. So you really have to be careful what you play. Because you will be continually feeding the GM's ability make things more difficult for you.
Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1127293... is your planned Heartbreaker rpg a game in the vein of James Bond or am I way off here?:p ...
Not really. It's more of my "How Trent would do all those generic games in a way the fans have been clamoring for". So, any genre, generic but not "universal" in the sense that my GM/play assumptions will be baked in.
I also do some amateur layout, so I was just curious. I hope you take a stab (see what I did there?!?!) at making your horror game. I think it would be a delicious love letter based on your enthusiasm.
Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1127218We begin with some Chaosium stuff:
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Looks like 5th edition D&D except that the guy in the middle has a pistol and a fedora.
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Horrifying for all the wrong reasons
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This one looks really cool, it'd make a great cover for a fantasy game.
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Extremely non-Call of Cthulhu
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You saved the retch for last. D&D uses literal cartoon artwork on their "Acquisitions Incorporated" supplement, and I find it very off-putting in even that context. This just screams "throw me in the garbage, then set the garbage on fire, then bury the ashes in a landfill, then destroy any record of this ever having existed".
Is the RPG customer base really just growing more infantile and stupid that this dreck appeals to them? This art is about as subtle and evocative as a pie in the face by a circus clown.
I was of the opinion that there competing against CoC was a nonsensical waste of time, BRP is an excellent system, the Cthulhu mythos is great, it has a impressive legacy and reputation, and its (old) products were terrific. But seeing the brain-damaged direction Chaosium has been heading, I'm not so sure. If someone were to use the Legend OGL for maximum compatibility, there may be a place for a more serious, general horror rpg to fill the gap being left by Chaosium's shift to cartoonish pulp and diversity quotas.
Quote from: Mjollnir;1127330You saved the retch for last. D&D uses literal cartoon artwork on their "Acquisitions Incorporated" supplement, and I find it very off-putting in even that context. This just screams "throw me in the garbage, then set the garbage on fire, then bury the ashes in a landfill, then destroy any record of this ever having existed".
Is the RPG customer base really just growing more infantile and stupid that this dreck appeals to them? This art is about as subtle and evocative as a pie in the face by a circus clown.
I was of the opinion that there competing against CoC was a nonsensical waste of time, BRP is an excellent system, the Cthulhu mythos is great, it has a impressive legacy and reputation, and its (old) products were terrific. But seeing the brain-damaged direction Chaosium has been heading, I'm not so sure. If someone were to use the Legend OGL for maximum compatibility, there may be a place for a more serious, general horror rpg to fill the gap being left by Chaosium's shift to cartoonish pulp and diversity quotas.
I'm not a D&D player but I love fantasy, sword & sorcery, etc. You're correct that the last cartoony cover wouldn't even fly in a fantasy setting. Think of old Frazetta Conan art, now THAT'S inspiring stuff. When I saw the covers of old Savage Sword of Conan I couldn't wait to read the comics. You wanted to be that tough, muscular warrior on the cover, hacking through a horde of enemies or saving some halfnaked woman from some monstrous creature. Looking at that last Pulp Cthulhu cover...is it inspiring? Would anyone really want to that generic girl in glasses or the cleft-beard-guy who looks like he would be drinking Latte in Seattle right now?
This is how you do cool pulp covers:
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So, they can't do horror covers right anymore it seems, and that last Pulp campaign cover would hardly even interest an 12-year old I bet. I see what they're aiming for but I just don't understand it. Younger people today play Playstatio and Xbox games with more mature content. They're heading for Scooby-Doo-land. The question is why? When Teletubbies are weirder and scarier than your campaign cover, isn't it time to rethink your art direction?
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Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1127337So, they can't do horror covers right anymore it seems, and that last Pulp campaign cover would hardly even interest an 12-year old I bet. I see what they're aiming for but I just don't understand it. Younger people today play Playstatio and Xbox games with more mature content. They're heading for Scooby-Doo-land. The question is why? When Teletubbies are weirder and scarier than your campaign cover, isn't it time to rethink your art direction?
CoC has always been the "safe" horror game. The main bad guys are so preposterous that nobody could believe they actually exists, aside from denying the existence of God, the game takes no stance on any moral or spiritual issue so it offends no one, and the regular bad guys are irredeemable crazy people that you can kill without guilt (like zombies). The game even has a mechanic which is used to inform the player when he's supposed to pretend that his character is scared.
If you wanted a game based on 70s/80s horror, you'd need to abandon the safe and non-threatening approach which would lose the vast majority of the game's appeal. (and, as previously mentioned, there isn't an effective framing device needed for a long term campaign.)
Quote from: Mjollnir;1127330...
I was of the opinion that there competing against CoC was a nonsensical waste of time, BRP is an excellent system, the Cthulhu mythos is great, it has a impressive legacy and reputation, and its (old) products were terrific. [I]But seeing the brain-damaged direction Chaosium has been heading, I'm not so sure.[/I] If someone were to use the Legend OGL for maximum compatibility, there may be a place for a more serious, general horror rpg to fill the gap being left by Chaosium's shift to cartoonish pulp and diversity quotas.
That's what makes me think a "pathfinder" version of CoC might be viable now.
It must be d100. It must have 'Cthulhu' in the title.
But I also think it would have to have a good art design. And although d100 it would have to be more clever when it comes to skills etc...
It could be d100 compatible without following the old-school design 100%.
That all being said, one would have to stay around long enough for Chaosium's wokeness to start to take effect. And be good enough that you would be viewed as a viable option for people to not give Chaosium their money to get their "CoC" fix.
Doable, but a tall order none the less.
That new chaosium art is hideous and idiotic.
Silent Legions (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145769/Silent-Legions) (By Sine Nomine , who made Stars without Number)
Is a generic Horror RPG. OSR based.
I've used it a lot and it can be used for pretty much whatever style of Horror you want.
Even if you don't use the Rules system itself, the GM tables are really useful
The front cover is terrible though. Looks like they used "Poser" or some such software to make it.
Quote from: danskmacabre;1127486Silent Legions (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145769/Silent-Legions) (By Sine Nomine , who made Stars without Number)
Is a generic Horror RPG. OSR based.
.
Black Books: Tomes of the Outer Dark (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/184758/Black-Books-Tomes-of-the-Outer-Dark) is an OSR alternative. It uses PD artwork from period comics. Yeah some of the CoC covers are dumb.
Simon, on DriveThruRPG, your full size preview is only the generic character sheet. It would be interesting to see more so people can get a better understanding. Also, is it for sale in dead tree on Amazon?
Quote from: hedgehobbit;1127348CoC has always been the "safe" horror game. The main bad guys are so preposterous that nobody could believe they actually exists, aside from denying the existence of God, the game takes no stance on any moral or spiritual issue so it offends no one, and the regular bad guys are irredeemable crazy people that you can kill without guilt (like zombies). The game even has a mechanic which is used to inform the player when he's supposed to pretend that his character is scared.
If you wanted a game based on 70s/80s horror, you'd need to abandon the safe and non-threatening approach which would lose the vast majority of the game's appeal. (and, as previously mentioned, there isn't an effective framing device needed for a long term campaign.)
Well, I think old Chaosium had a darker mood in many of their scenarios (I'm not talking the globetrotting campaigns now). It might have been around the 90s when Pagan Publishing was active as well. The covers were more in the horror vein too. You didn't have to think twice if it was a horror adventure or not.
Down below are some examples of older covers/illustrations that I think convey the idea of a horror game more than their new stuff. Of course, a horror game based on 70s and 80s horror would be even more visceral and pack a harder punch, but that's another matter.
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Quote from: danskmacabre;1127486Silent Legions (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145769/Silent-Legions) (By Sine Nomine , who made Stars without Number)
Is a generic Horror RPG. OSR based.
I've used it a lot and it can be used for pretty much whatever style of Horror you want.
Even if you don't use the Rules system itself, the GM tables are really useful
The front cover is terrible though. Looks like they used "Poser" or some such software to make it.
Is there anything that isn't level-based?
Quote from: danskmacabre;1127486Silent Legions (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145769/Silent-Legions) (By Sine Nomine , who made Stars without Number)
Is a generic Horror RPG. OSR based.
I've used it a lot and it can be used for pretty much whatever style of Horror you want.
Even if you don't use the Rules system itself, the GM tables are really useful
The front cover is terrible though. Looks like they used "Poser" or some such software to make it.
Quote from: Simon W;1127493Black Books: Tomes of the Outer Dark (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/184758/Black-Books-Tomes-of-the-Outer-Dark) is an OSR alternative. It uses PD artwork from period comics. Yeah some of the CoC covers are dumb.
Is there anything that isn't level-based?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1127579Is there anything that isn't level-based?
You might like Kult.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kult_(role-playing_game)
But it's not really generic. It's based around Angelic vs Demonic forces.
Skill based type thing. No levelling
I'd definitely give a heads up to Chill. It was a sort of competitor to CoC back in the day. More generic Horror, such as in the style of "Hammer house of horror"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chill_(role-playing_game)
There's also "Trail of Cthulhu"
A very story based, Narrative type RPG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Cthulhu
I've not played it, but it sounded interesting when I first heard of it.
Or if you wanna go wayback, some GURPS horror. All points buy. Not to my taste, but some like it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS_Horror
The classic era Call of Cthulhu artwork has always skirted the line between Pulp Action and Weird Horror.
That has probably been some of the appeal, as the game can speak to different aspirations.
Now the two flavours don't need to mix, as there actually are rules for both Pulp Cthulhu and standard CoC 7E.
For campaigns I prefer to play Pulp Cthulhu, and the games play like a cross between Agatha Christie meets Indy Jones, with a background of Eldritch threats.
The new rules add quite a bit to the game to help it rollick along at a pulpy pace. Great stuff.
However for one-shots I find the standard rules much better, as having vulnerable characters with the threat of TPK on the table makes for a great night's entertainment. I also don't think any of the new rules add hardly anything of value to the core game, and I think I prefer the 1E to 3E versions of Call of Cthulhu, they are much leaner and perfect for one-shots.
I totally agree that there has been some odd choices for the new art direction however.
The Pulp Cthulhu products have great artwork (and the Down Darker Trails also works well with this). Except for 'A Cold Fire Within', which has a cover that is just far too cartoony for my tastes, it just looks childish. I have no idea who they are aiming that at, but it doesn't say Pulp Investigation or Adventure to me, it looks like something from the Cartoon Network. Just plain awlful.
Despite that, I love what they are doing with most of the Pulp Cthulhu line, but the real problem is the current core CoC 7E rulebooks also look like they are made for Pulp Cthulhu.
The previous edition, CoC 6E had artwork with the creeping horror tone that suited the core game, but the core CoC 7E rulebooks all look like they are for Pulp Cthulhu.
The standard Call of Cthulhu line does seem to have totally lost it's cold horror edge.
So yeah, as a lover of both genres, I wish Chaosium would really stick in the lanes they have provided.
Whilst the Pulp Cthulhu game is great, the core Cthulhu line feels greatly diluted by comparison. Sure, the investigation and period setting elements are great for background content, but it's all become very politically correct and lame, and the actual threat of horror appears to be almost gone.
Delta Green seems to understand this, and the edge is there in that line, but I really wish Chaosium's core Call Of Cthulhu line was much darker.
Also 'Gateways To Terror' had a godawlful cartoony cover, and it wasn't even for Pulp Cthulhu, it is for the core CoC 7E line. I have no idea of it's content, but the cover killed any suspension of grim horror or creeping investigation for me. From the outset it looked completely inappropropriate, it is something that will attract the primary/elementary school age group.
I do see that the book now has another cover, it looks much better. Although still looks like something for Pulp Cthulhu, it's not unerving enough for classic Cthulhu.
So I think a horror game with the weird edge of the 70s/80s horror flicks might actually catch an eye or two on the gaming shelves.
I know it would catch my eye, I was one of those kids who used to check out all the video rental covers in the horror section, it was really visceral and twisted, yet fascinating and totally absorbing.
The British horrors were often unsettling and dripping in ambience, the European horrors were sexy-weird-mondo-twisted, and the American horrors were often intense thrillers or junky slashers. Lots of exploitation material to boot. Some completely near-senseless gonzo plots, mixed in with some really well-crafted storylines that put many today's writers to shame.
Ghost Stories were really unsettling. Slasher Flicks were harsh gorefests. Thrillers truly had you on the edge of your seat. Morality was a blurring line. It add added up to a crazy intense mess of a genre that, whilst not gone, doesn't seem to be present anywhere near as much these days.
I'm not sure if I would want things going that dark in a game on a regular basis, but something with that edge would really be great for one-shot sessions.
Quote from: Mankcam;1127600I love what they are doing with Pulp Cthulhu, but the problem is the current core CoC 7E rulebooks also look like they are made for Pulp Cthulhu.
Part of my problem with 7e is that its designers seemed intent on blunting the horror... in favor of what, I'm not sure. They're original proposal was even farther afield.
If all that had been left to Pulp Cthulhu I could have happily ignored it, or played it for a change of pace... but its the core game. So meh, I'll stick with 5e and Delta Green.
As you mention, Delta Green has remained intent on the horror elements, while trying some interesting things that enhance that focus.
QuoteSo I think a horror game with the weird edge of the 70s/80s horror flicks might actually catch an eye or two on the gaming shelves.
Some of the images posted earlier have me thinking I'd like to play something with a giallo flavor to it. I love Italian and Spanish horror movies, they're not necessarily supernatural horror, not always, but always great atmosphere with a sense of lurking evil and madness. Italian horror comics as well (I think the source for many of the stories in old Creepy/Eerie).
One thing about them that works for RPGs is that they often feature small groups of people trying to solve the mystery... vs. a lot of horror fiction that focuses on a lone individual.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1127494Simon, on DriveThruRPG, your full size preview is only the generic character sheet. It would be interesting to see more so people can get a better understanding. Also, is it for sale in dead tree on Amazon?
I'll see what I can do about the preview. It's picking up the separate (included) character sheet rather than the book itself. It's not on Amazon - it's on LULU though.
Quote from: Mankcam;1127600The standard Call of Cthulhu line does seem to have totally lost it's cold horror edge.
So yeah, as a lover of both genres, I wish Chaosium would really stick in the lanes they have provided.
Whilst the Pulp Cthulhu game is great, the core Cthulhu line feels greatly diluted by comparison. Sure, the investigation and period setting elements are great for background content, but it's all become very politically correct and lame, and the actual threat of horror appears to be almost gone.
Delta Green seems to understand this, and the edge is there in that line, but I really wish Chaosium's core Call Of Cthulhu line was much darker.
Also 'Gareways To Terror' has a godawlful cartoony cover, and it wasn't even for Pulp Cthulhu, it is for the core CoC 7E line. I have no idea of it's content, but the cover kills any suspension of grim horror or creeping investigation for me. From the outset it looks completely inappropropriate, it is something that will attract the primary/elementary school age group.
Chaosium probably needs to put out a separate line of mystery and adventure games aimed at children, as that is the only place covers like 'A Cold Fire Within' and 'Gateways To Terror' will shine. They just have no place within the rest of the game, and currently they are an embaressment.
So I think a horror game with the weird edge of the 70s/80s horror flicks might actually catch an eye or two on the gaming shelves.
I know it would catch my eye, I was one of those kids who used to check out all the video rental covers in the horror section, it was really visceral and twisted, yet fascinating and totally absorbing.
The British horrors were often unsettling and dripping in ambience, the European horrors were sexy-weird-mondo-twisted, and the American horrors were often intense thrillers or junky slashers. Lots of exploitation material to boot. Some completely near-senseless gonzo plots, mixed in with some really well-crafted storylines that put many today's writers to shame.
Ghost Stories were really unsettling. Slasher Flicks were harsh gorefests. Thrillers truly had you on the edge of your seat. Morality was a blurring line. It add added up to a crazy intense mess of a genre that, whilst not gone, doesn't seem to be present anywhere near as much these days.
I'm not sure if I would want things going that dark in a game on a regular basis, but something with that edge would really be great for one-shot sessions.
That would probably be a generic game's strength though, to be able to encompass the different chiller/horror genres. A Silence of the lambs-like chase for some serial killer would have a very different tone, pace and locus of control (they are trained and armed cops/FBI-agents) vs survival at Camp Blood with potsmoking, dumb and horny teens becoming targets of Jason Voorhees or Cropsy. The FBI could also be a 19th century secret society/club who hunts or studies the horrors of the night, drawing more from Van Helsing in the vein of Stoker's material or Hammer horrors material. Steadfast people who are still filled with fear whenever they come across a legend that turns out to be true but with experience and learning to lean on instead of über fighting skills and gear in the vein of Wesley Snipes Blade.
Quote from: Simlasa;1127603Part of my problem with 7e is that its designers seemed intent on blunting the horror... in favor of what, I'm not sure. They're original proposal was even farther afield.
If all that had been left to Pulp Cthulhu I could have happily ignored it, or played it for a change of pace... but its the core game. So meh, I'll stick with 5e and Delta Green.
As you mention, Delta Green has remained intent on the horror elements, while trying some interesting things that enhance that focus.
Some of the images posted earlier have me thinking I'd like to play something with a giallo flavor to it. I love Italian and Spanish horror movies, they're not necessarily supernatural horror, not always, but always great atmosphere with a sense of lurking evil and madness. Italian horror comics as well (I think the source for many of the stories in old Creepy/Eerie).
One thing about them that works for RPGs is that they often feature small groups of people trying to solve the mystery... vs. a lot of horror fiction that focuses on a lone individual.
]
I agree on Chaosium blunting the horror from the beginning in the 7th edition. The sprawling quality of the interior art doesn't help. In a time when great artists are a dime a dozen it bewilders me when I look at the art and layout. I like 7th edition, but from a stylistical view point it's a mess. They should have gone with one great artist to begin with, or at least artists that have very similar tones and styles.
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For medieval horror, you can use my Cults of Chaos (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/187942/Dark-Albion-Cults-of-Chaos) book (with L&D or any OSR game) to create an "inquisitors" campaign where the PCs are investigators trying to uncover and defeat nefarious individuals and groups bringing terror to medieval communities.
I like the setting of Kult, but its aesthetics are nowhere mainstream enough to challenge CoC.
Are there any good non-D&D based games that cover similar territory to Ravenloft? A mix of Universal/Hammer horror minus the overt D&Disms (orcs, elves, goofy magic, etc.)... add a bit of romance? Maybe adding in elements of the darker European takes on those stories... like some of the Mario Bava movies. Something like a Captain Kronos, Vampire Hunter game would be fun... and not too horribly grisly (unless you wanted it to be).
Quote from: Simlasa;1127801...
Are there any good non-D&D based games that cover similar territory to Ravenloft? A mix of Universal/Hammer horror minus the overt D&Disms (orcs, elves, goofy magic, etc.)... add a bit of romance? Maybe adding in elements of the darker European takes on those stories...
Not familiar with your references, but this is a solid suggestion just on this part alone. :-)
Quote from: trechriron;1127802Not familiar with your references...
Mario Bava? Captain Kronos?
Mario Bava made some great old horror films... as much style as substance. They'd fit right into a Ravenloft soup. Look up Black Sunday (1960) and Black Sabbath (1963).
Captain Kronos is a swashbuckling Hammer hero, along with his hunchback assistant, Hieronymus Grost, and pal Caroline Munroe.. out to defeat the infamous Karnestein family (going under a different name). It was meant to be a series but only one was made.
Salem's Lot was the best. I'd like to play in that campaign, myself. One of my favorite old horror movies.
"Face the master!!!"
Quote from: Simlasa;1127801Are there any good non-D&D based games that cover similar territory to Ravenloft? A mix of Universal/Hammer horror minus the overt D&Disms (orcs, elves, goofy magic, etc.)... add a bit of romance? Maybe adding in elements of the darker European takes on those stories... like some of the Mario Bava movies. Something like a Captain Kronos, Vampire Hunter game would be fun... and not too horribly grisly (unless you wanted it to be).
Many years ago I designed a "Captain Kronos" rpg. It was available for free download. No idea whether I even still have it on a disk somewhere (it wasn't all that good). The nearest thing I have now is Sabres & Witchery (https://beyondbeliefgames.webs.com/freestuff.htm) - it doesn't meet your non-D&D base though.
Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1127218As per suggestion in the thread about Chaosium and their so called OGL I start a new topic for people who love all things horror and horror rpgs especially. In that thread I made references to an imagined rpg based on older horror from the 70s and 80s, in my mind the golden era of horror. The horror I grew up with, love and collect to this day.
Since what I'm aiming for is very hard to put into words, unless you are a hardcore horror fan yourself, I will begin by using a few images to discuss the points of ambience, layout, etc. A new rpg based on older horror would obviously need to have the visuals to even begin to challenge something as deeply rooted as Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu.
Is the hypothetical horror RPG solely based around d100?
One game that was passed onto me, that I ended up enjoying was Slasher Flick. Never seemed to have caught on, and the scope was purely slasher films (as the name obviously implies). But there were a few things that stood out to me.
1. The players create not only their main characters, but also a group of secondary characters (which they play during kill scenes and act as backup characters). Characters are designed to emulate the genre, and players are rewarded for doing the stupid things that characters in horror movies shouldn't be doing (like saying "I'll be right back" or running upstairs instead of out the back door). The game master also creates NPC's.
2. The Killer has no stats. It is a force to be reckon with and the players have no chance of killing him off for good until the climax.
3. Scenes with the Killer are resolved with a Survival rating that rises and falls as actions are attempted. If it falls below a certain number, you die. If it goes above a set number, you escape. It has good tension there, and helps emulate the genre beyond the normal attack rolls and hit points of mainstream games.
4. Characters do not improve. Makes sense, as games are meant to be one-offs. Rules exist to bring back surviving characters, as well as the Killer.
The game itself is more story-based than most of the horror games out there. I rarely play story games. The characters actually have stats and skills in this, so it's at least a plus for me. While it may not be everyone's cup of tea, Slasher Flick at least captures the feel of a horror movie. I have thought about using it to run some Lovecraftian horror, as the lack of in-depth combat rules (and its one shot set up) seems to make it feel more ideal for the kinds of violent, bloody horror movies I grew up with, and fits the writings of Lovecraft's uncaring universe more than a setting that allows you to blow the piss out of the monsters and increase your skills.
Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now...
Of course, Harry Potter's Wizarding World is a horror setting, if you're a muggle. So, in a sense there has been a break away Hammer horror + D&Disms media property in the last 20 years.
That has me thinking of a Boyz-inspired Hunter: The Vigil game where the PCs are muggles out to blow up Hogwart's.
I've always wanted to run a horror game where the evil sorcerer's base turns out to be Hogwarts. It's one of those campaigns where the DM needs an escape route. :D