As per suggestion in the thread about Chaosium and their so called OGL I start a new topic for people who love all things horror and horror rpgs especially. In that thread I made references to an imagined rpg based on older horror from the 70s and 80s, in my mind the golden era of horror. The horror I grew up with, love and collect to this day.

Since what I'm aiming for is very hard to put into words, unless you are a hardcore horror fan yourself, I will begin by using a few images to discuss the points of ambience, layout, etc. A new rpg based on older horror would obviously need to have the visuals to even begin to challenge something as deeply rooted as Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu.

So the start of the discussion is a comparison of poster art/layout/general art of old horror and the art of Nu-Chaosium's products. We begin with some Chaosium stuff:


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And now some more oldschool horror stuff:

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I have so many other examples, but I won't flood the thread with poster art just yet. To get things off the ground...I want you to think about what these pieces of art convey, do they capture a certain ambience? What audience are they intended for? Whatever that pops up in your mind.

I think the challenge for a generic horror game is the "So what do you do with it?" question. CoC, and also WoD, the other successful horror RPG (if you agree that it's horror), both have a clear hook. It's pretty easy to explain what a standard CoC or WoD campaign looks like, just like it's easy to explain the standard dungeon crawl scenario of D&D.

The other thing is that the prospect of an open ended ongoing campaign is a draw for a lot of people. It's easy to envision a one off slasher movie based game, but harder to make that work as a campaign.

That said, I'm a huge fan of horror, particularly of the 70s/80s variety, so I would be interested to to see the sort of game you seem to be describing.

Have you checked out Chill? I don't really know it myself but maybe it's cool.

Some other pulp games have this sort of horror as an element. I don't know about any who specialized in it though (but check the cover of Astounding Adventures for instance, although the system would be basically CoC)

I'm not really a fan of the horror genre per se, but I used to be back in the 80's when I was a kid, though I got bored with it when none of it would really frighten me and I got tired of the slasher film formula. One of the challenges of creating a generic horror RPG (which I think @Dimitrios was hinting at) is defining a consistent presentation for the game that could apply across the entire genre.

In the case of D&D you have common themes, tropes and character archetypes that could easily be adapted across a broad range of heroic fantasy regardless of sub genre--whether it's high-fantasy, sword & sorcery, post apocalyptic fantasy or dark fantasy. The specific "feel" for these worlds may vary, but you could always fit warriors, specialists (thieves/rogues) or spell casters in just about any of them. The same cannot be said about horror, however, since the horror genre can be more varied than (and even inclusive of) heroic fantasy.

In heroic fantasy there will always be powerful characters capable of tackling major threats, even in grim dark settings. In a horror world there could be powerful characters--if it's a grim dark setting about warriors fighting otherworldly horrors--or everyone could be a wimpy normal thrust into circumstances beyond their understanding or ability to handle. They could also be brainy academics in a Victorian-type setting or paranormal investigators in a modern world. In some horror stories most of characters might not be intended to survive at all.

There just isn't a common thread across the entire horror genre the way there is with heroic fantasy. CoC and WoD work because it narrows down what the world is about and the types of horror adventures characters are likely to find themselves in those worlds, but those themes will not work for other horror settings or stories. That's why CoC will probably never be dethroned. The most you could hope for is creating a generic "horror-investigation" type game, which would work for that style of horror, but not others.

BTW, I forgot to ask; what on earth is going on in that second image in the OP?

The Unisystem can be used and tailored to different settings, and not just horror. The various templates for hero types could be limited to the ones you want in your campaign (low powered civilians, semi competent survivors and professional monster hunters), or mixed up like in the Cinematic subsytem. The various sourcebooks for AFMBE made it possible to play in Noir, WWF, Wild West, SciFi or Fantasy settings, and allowed even to leave out zombies (and replace them with other supernatural threats). And besides AFMBE Unisystem also had Terra Primate, Witchcraft and Armageddon for different types of horror.
Too bad Eden lost the ball a decade ago, or never could publish a generic Unisystem book with setting supplements. I always thought it could have been a contender.

But I think the big head start CoC had, was that it was based of BRP/Runequest and so could pull in an existing base of fantasy players. What popular fantasy system today could be repurposed for contemporary horror?

Yes, I'm aware of Chill, Cryptworld and other horror rpgs. The first edition of Chill goes for the Hammer kind of horror, and we played that game alot although the system was a bit odd/clunky. But the new versions (apart from the new Swedish version) has one thing in common. They are butt ugly. There is no layout to speak of, the art is bad. Good art and layout sells horror. Remember the VHS rental days when you picked some real horror stinkers but the cover and the blurb on the back made you pick them?

Now, I see a clear difference between the cover art of the modern Call of Cthulhu/Pulp Cthulhu adventures and the covers of old horror movies, novels and comics. First off, they are made by masters of the craft of course. Second, there is no doubt whatsoever that the art portrays something from the horror genre. Mystery, blood, murder, monsters, creepy stuff, mature themes. It's all there in the old covers in one way or another. The fonts themselves, the taglines, etc. Good horror art never confuses you, regardless if it's a werewolf flick, a backwoods slasher, a psychological chiller or a movie about demonic possession. You know it's horror, you know what to expect.

Now compare 70's and 80's horror covers to Shadows over Stillwater for instance. It has a monster and people running away on the cover, and it's a western setting. But it's not horror. The monster doesn't look creepy or horrific. In fact, it would probably be better not to show it fully. The palette is not moody or scary. Clear, happy colours and daylight. The selection of fonts is uninspired shit. And of course, Chaosium uses the same interior layout to most of their CoC stuff these days (which is lazy as hell). I would fire the art director at once. It's clear that Chaosium want a monster and some western stuff, but they also want something safe. No body horror, no blood and gore, nothing really sinister or weird. A kid friendly betrayal of the horror genre itself. They want Miss Marple combined with some globetrotting and tentacles. Tea and scones, inclusiveness and cultists in every corner. Rinse and repeat. The movie The Thing is Lovecraftian. Chaosium's Reign of Terror is not.

Western horror is pretty rare, but imagine what an old poster would look like envisioned by someone with real horror in mind. Western movies had some very beautiful poster art (especially spaghetti westerns). Now combine it with something creepy in the old style and you would have a real winner. The poster of Pale Rider for instance combined with true horror elements.

A generic horror game might not have a similar hook like the one Call of Cthulhu used to have, but are abandoning more and more with Nu-Chaosium authors that even seem to have some kind of personal vendetta against Lovecraft (like Chris Spivey) while cashing in on the Mythos. But the hook of a "generic" horror game could be that it pulls no punches and the creative freedom it brings not being tied to a certain Mythos or setting.

A beautiful, new rpg that allows you to play a Friday the 13th-like slasher scenario? Or maybe something more in the vein of a giallo or a thriller - like the hunt for a serial killer or a psychological rollercoaster like Spielbergs Duel? A game that allows you to explore the vampire legends of the Karstein castle, be some frontiersman discovering the true horror that collects human heads in Nahanni valley or a French wolf hunter who tracks what terrorizes 18th century Gevaudan?

Quote from: Trond;1127233BTW, I forgot to ask; what on earth is going on in that second image in the OP?

Some guy in a dress is being whipped at a party.

Dethroning doesn't really seem to be a thing that happens or lasts in this industry.

Still, I'd think that you'd really have to nail the zeitgeist of the present time to dethrone Call of Cthulhu.  You'd need to speak to the now not the past.

Call of Cthulhu has the advantage of the Cthulhu Mythos, which has become so popular it's become a cliche.

The disadvantage, of course, is that excludes everything that's not Cthulhu Mythos. But how big a market is that? Hammer Horror, Universal Pictures, Edgar Allen, slashers, schlocky B-movies... it's niche, and an RPG based on a pastiche of those old properties would be a niche of a niche. I think it's possible for a new game to break out in the horror genre, but it would have to speak to modern players. It could be retro-inspired, but it would have to be something new. And it would have to have it's own distinct flavor, instead of just being a melange of yesteryear. It's very unlikely, though.

Quote from: Pat;1127240Call of Cthulhu has the advantage of the Cthulhu Mythos, which has become so popular it's become a cliche.

A twisted version of it is popularized and cliche'd, but I don't think HPL's work as source of gaming need be. Lovecraft in gaming needs to go through the 'demythologizing' it did in literary analysis.

Quote from: Groom of the Stool;1127237Some guy in a dress is being whipped at a party.

OK I was wondering if I was missing the horror element, but I guess that is pretty frightening

No, I don't think so.  I love horror gaming but its scope is somewhat limiting and most gamers just use it as an occasional diversion from their usual fare.  There are already horror games that fill the available niches.  Many have mechanics superior to CoC, but that hasn't mattered at all.  CoC is simple enough and its themes well-enough understood that it works fine for what most people want in a horror game.

I think I get what you are showing with the art.  I too would favor something that actually looks frightening.  But any company large enough to out-market Chaosium will be similarly averse to being too edgy with either artwork or themes in general.