To be fair, kitchen sinks on a single world/setting are fine as long you take the time to set up a reasonable premise for it.

Rifts, for example, is an amazing setting where literally anything can go.

I think one of the keys to a plausible kitchen sink is doing something that seems like a bit anathema to some; you have to abandon the setting is going to look anything like Medieval Europe.

One of my own rules for doing up a kitchen sink is that I always establish that the setting is a particular point in time where things are in flux rather than some static and unchanging situation that has endured for millennia.

So, for example, there might be dozens of sapient species in the present moment, but only because of events in the last millennium or so created them and if you used a time machine to jump another millennium into the future only one species would be dominant while the others are in decline (with no hope of ever rising above whatever niche they were able to carve out) or even extinct (because they weren't able to overcome the other species and couldn't find a niche they could exploit).

Quote from: Omega;1119917According to the map Koviaire is apparently about 3000 or so miles across

Was that the original scale, or the new one?

IIRC, the original scale Khorvaire was roughly 4,500 miles x 3,000 miles. I read somewhere that the 5e version is roughly 2/3 those measurements (so 3,000 miles x 2,000 miles).

Quote from: Chris24601;1119918To be fair, kitchen sinks on a single world/setting are fine as long you take the time to set up a reasonable premise for it.

True.  My objection there is more practical:  It's much easier for me to add to a setting than take away*.  I practically never run a setting as is.  So at some point, any setting will reach a threshold where it is less valuable to me than the alternatives, simply by the number of things added.  Combine that with a kitchen sink that focuses on a lot of stuff that doesn't interest me, and it's a no-brainer to avoid it.

* I'm aware that others are the complete opposite on this point, finding it much easier to prune than add.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119923Was that the original scale, or the new one?

IIRC, the original scale Khorvaire was roughly 4,500 miles x 3,000 miles. I read somewhere that the 5e version is roughly 2/3 those measurements (so 3,000 miles x 2,000 miles).

5e map. I have the book and measured it according to the scale given. Which seems a bit off as you note.

Quote from: Omega;11199295e map. I have the book and measured it according to the scale given. Which seems a bit off as you note.

Eberron also has really low population densities. In the original (3.5e) version, the population density was (as someone on the internet calculated) similar to Mongolia. The biggest city, Sharn, was supposed to be a NYC/London/Shanghai stand-in and it only had a population of 200,000. The new map has shrunk and the populations have come up, but Sharn still only has 500,000 people which still seems quite low considering the size of the city (both in footprint and in the massive heights of the towers). It's another example of Eberron's details not being well thought-out even when some of the broad brushstrokes seem interesting (I still have no idea what the nation of Breyland actually produces with its "heavy industry" export).

Quote from: HappyDaze;1119938The new map has shrunk and the populations have come up, but Sharn still only has 500,000 people which still seems quite low considering the size of the city (both in footprint and in the massive heights of the towers).

At least part of that probably comes from modern audiences forgetting that any city becomes much bigger when the only way most people have to get around within it is on foot, even in Eberron.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1119928True.  My objection there is more practical:  It's much easier for me to add to a setting than take away*.  I practically never run a setting as is.  So at some point, any setting will reach a threshold where it is less valuable to me than the alternatives, simply by the number of things added.  Combine that with a kitchen sink that focuses on a lot of stuff that doesn't interest me, and it's a no-brainer to avoid it.

* I'm aware that others are the complete opposite on this point, finding it much easier to prune than add.

Yeah, I like kitchen sink elements in world-hopping settings like RIFTS, Planescape or Spelljammer, where jumping between worlds or bringing something from another world is part of the setting's theme and is backed up with an in-world rationale that's central to what the setting is about, such as dimensional/planar travel or space travel. In such worlds weirdness and mishmash races is part of what the setting is about. But when it comes to other types of settings I prefer a more focused approach focused on the world's internal themes without trying to be everything to everyone.

I tend to find that on expansive settings like Forgotten Realms, with dozens of mostly bland mishmash cities without an overarching focus of what the world is about, I tend to have difficulty knowing even where to start when it comes to picking one city over another other or immersing myself in the world. So all that extra detail becomes more bloat for me to parse through, rather than something that brings more clarity or interesting things for me to know about. But in world-hopping settings the kitchen sink works because it's paradoxically part of the setting's focus, rather than extra out of place bloat.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1119941At least part of that probably comes from modern audiences forgetting that any city becomes much bigger when the only way most people have to get around within it is on foot, even in Eberron.

Considering that each district was supposed to be a small city (of roughly 10,000) and each ward had around 6 districts and there were 15 wards (plus the Cogs and sewers), it's not hard to see a Sharn with 1,000,000 or more inhabitants. Few of the inhabitants have to leave the district they live in with any regularity, and even fewer ever leave their ward.

re: Population.

I suspect the listed population might be the known or census population and that theres alot of "unregistered" population. Who knows.

It is though after a large war so population may be down for that reason too.

Quote from: BronzeDragon;1119832One of the main problems with the setting is the "everything goes!" command that generated it.

Having to fit absolutely everything D&D holds just makes for a ridiculous world. I've always been in the camp that says restrictions are what generates great role-playing opportunities and worlds that make sense.

I don't think I've ever run a game where everything on the PHB was allowed as written...

I don't think that this criticism is true for Eberron, and even in cases where it might be construed as true it's not always bad.  The Ptolus setting is based on that - the idea that having a Minotaur and an elf meet for drinks at the local tavern and the setting COULD support that doesn't work in every campaign setting, but the 'official' settings have a good reason to WANT to support that.  Somewhere there's a table with a guy who only plays Minotaurs and another guy who only plays Elves, and they have to find a way to make that work in the D&D game they want.  In your personal setting you can make Minotaurs always monstrous and the idea of sitting down to talk is crazy (or gonzo) but there are enough people that want such a setting that it'd be crazy not to provide some support for it.  

When you take a setting where very disparate characters COULD interact meaningfully, it drives a type of campaign setting that has A LOT OF STUFF, but not EVERYTHING.  

Eberron has it's own flavor.  There are a lot of ingredients and you don't have to like it, but I don't think you can make the accusation that the ingredients don't harmonize.

Every image of Eberron I've ever seen has screamed "steampunk."

I hate steampunk. So I've never given Eberron a chance.

Quote from: Morlock;1120205Every image of Eberron I've ever seen has screamed "steampunk."

I hate steampunk. So I've never given Eberron a chance.

What images were those? All I've seen so far and especially in the 5e book have had zero steampunk feel. Magitech it does have a feel for to a small degree. But steampunk? None at all. As said earlier for all the touting of steampunk, noir, pulp and magitech. It is surprisingly very lacking in these elements aside from a little magitech really.

Even the touted "magic pistols!" are just spell focuses or wands and aside from one or two illustrations theres nothing to support that they even look like firearms and are instead just normal wands and focuses. Its a really weird disconnect between whats touted and whats presented. Much like 4e D&D GW was touted as slapstick comedy but theres next to nothing actually presented to support it.