Greetings!

Well, in my studies of ancient China, it is especially enlightening to see the contrast between Medieval Europe and Medieval China. Take the Song Empire, around the 10th or 11th centuries, A.D. The Song Empire had cities of over 1 million people, and many, many cities of hundreds of thousands of people. These cities were often highly fortified with extensive walls and towers. The Song cities were highly organized, laid out in districts, all the while being in position to maximize their resources and profitability. Apparently, the Song Empire was capitalist, with merchants of every kind coming and going, trading goods from around the world.

The major cities of the Song Empire had 24-hour business and commerce, with an vibrant nightlife, restaurants of every kind, and promoting artistry and intellectual pursuits everywhere. There were published books--novels, romance novels, books on cuisine and cooking, and more. Evidently, the Song cities were well-lit, well patrolled and guarded. The people everywhere--according to some quoted primary sources--were happy, joyful, industrious, and prosperous.

When thinking about the "Medieval World" in developing my campaigns, it has definitely been eye-opening to consider not just Medieval Europe--but Medieval China as well.

Of course, as a friend pointed out to me, embracing a Medieval Chinese theme for a campaign radically changes many of the underlying assumptions of the game. The Song Empire was clearly the most advanced society on the planet at the time, and approached many modern sensibilities, with 24-hour market-places, nightlife, restaurants, cuisine, international trade, large-scale book publishing, advanced crafting skills, artistry, well-developed theater traditions, advanced universities, paper money, an official and elaborate fashion industry, high court diplomacy, and superior technology and processes in every field. It's staggering to go down a list of all of the achievements and accomplishments of the Song Empire. All o these things were *normal* for the Song Empire.

I suppose embracing a Medieval Chinese theme would radically change many campaign assumptions. What do you think? I have been tempted, for certain. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Sounds amazing!  It saddens me to know that that the Song Empire didn't last, and fell to corruption and ultimately barbarian invaders. 

I wonder what stage you will place your civilization in?

While very interesting and certainly a change of pace, I suspect finding people able to wrap their heads around the culture would be a challenge.
I suspect that most people would be willing to watch a movie in the setting and not that interested in trying to play in it.
Unless of course it was just Medieval Europe with funny names.

It is tough introducing a significantly different setting in RPGs. In a movie, there are all those visuals. In a book, you can have hundreds of pages of descriptive prose. But nobody except a GM is going to read all that crap to play an RPG, and RPGs aren't just passive pre-scripted entertainment, they're freeform and active, which makes it much harder.

The best way might to create a bridge. A way to start in a more familiar setting, and introduce the elements either gradually or through immersion, but with the expectation it's as new to the characters as it is to the players. It can be a distant realm with travelers who visit the PC's home, and maybe take a trip there. It could be a magical gate, or a ship blown off course and sunk, where the PCs are dumped into a new realm and have adapt to the local customs and power structures. The stranger in a strange land is a hoary and effective motif.

Something like "Art of Wuxia"?
http://dwdstudios.com/artofwuxia

There is always the original "Empire of the Petal Throne" with its players starting as foreigners arriving at the port of a huge ancient city.

I would like to hear more. What system would you use? One problem I always have with running a Chinese-inspired game is martial arts. I was never satisfied with how AD&D or D&D 3 did their martial arts systems.

Sounds excellent! The Tang dynasty is my favorite, but the Song has so many possibilities.

Are you thinking historical, alt-History, or historically-inspired fantasy?

What system are you using?

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 18, 2022, 07:27:38 PM
Sounds amazing!  It saddens me to know that that the Song Empire didn't last, and fell to corruption and ultimately barbarian invaders. 

I wonder what stage you will place your civilization in?

Well, there is your campaign right there. Protect the Empire from fast-breeding monsters who are bent on raping and pillaging the Empire. For added drama, have the players be exposed to examples that the Empire has become decadent and should fall.

The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness.  Several of the recent wuxia rpgs like "Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate" & "Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades," offer good setting info.  I think the latter would be pretty easy for most players to gronk if they've seen a few martial arts films.  And it's got plenty of NPCs you could probably convert over to your preferred system if you don't use that one.

My own campaign setting features lands derived from China (more Tang era, though), Japan, and Korea, though these are not necessarily the main areas of action.  I've done one campaign mostly there. 

Personally, I favor the Ming-Qing eras as those are my areas of academic specialty.  But there's enough info out there in English to do pretty much any era of Chinese history.  And many of the major novels & short stories have been translated so you can easily find plots and setting details.  Monkey & Water Margin are probably the best for that, or one of the martial arts novels by Jin Yong.  If you want stuff specifically on the Song, let me know and I can make recommendations.  Water Margin is set in the Song, but was written in the Ming.

My favorite "China" based game is still Dragon Fist. It kept the "kick ass and take names" feel of Wuxia and transplanted it onto a fantasy world inspired by China that used a stripped down version of AD&D 2E with ascending AC and a stunt system. Overall, still love that game.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2022, 09:40:07 PM
The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness. 

That won't stop them from taking your money, they're just going to call you a bigot while they take it.

(I'm not going to link it, but it's up on DTRPG, complete with a big bold shout of a virtue signal complaining about how terrible everything used to be and how you're bad if you like it.)

Greetings!

Here is a nice introduction to the Song Dynasty. Featuring Professor Michael Wood as the host.



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I've read some enlightening descriptions of why medieval China was so different from medieval Europe. The major factors seem to be (a) rice - more calories per acre, higher population density and especially (b) hygiene - Chinese cities were kept very clean, which allowed for much bigger cities.

However China was still in the 'Malthusian Trap' and the result of higher populations and less disease was that China was much closer to the starvation line, with lower income per household and frequent severe famines. Europe had plague, China had famine.

  Song dynasty is a fascinating contradiction. You have to give allowance for a lot of... how to nicely put it... hagiography and good PR because this was a period of simultaneous contraction and loss of homeland (Northern Song & Huang Ho Yellow river), and forced colonization (Nam Viet (not Vietnam, mind you!) & Yangtze river) and displacement (Haka peoples, Northern Song refugees, technically Han, but treated like Han+).

Technically not capitalist, more entrepeneurial, but that also led to special dispensations and immunities to their displaced northern bretheren Haka (the Northern Song), which in turn led to speculation bubbles and great religious revivals, millenarial cults, and much turmoil within and throughout. And the 'barbarians' were winning piece by piece all along the fringes. And all of this news was collated by a counter-reformationist Neo-Confucianism that sought to "clean up" the records to set a good future example to follow. Basically literati rewriting things to win the future of a decaying empire with the right-thinking narratives.  The world may not repeat, but it rhymes -- thanks Matk Twain.

It was an interesting time no doubt, but read from the surrounding outsider lands and internally dispossessed the fissures were very real as the sanctioned choir sang louder. A great period full of contradictions and veneered decadence.

(edit: also little known was China was VERY LATE to the rice game. It was because of the Yangtze river colonization during the Southern Song (and loss of the Huang Ho Yellow river that was wheat growing in Norther Song) that China switched to rice around 1000 CE (AD). Before them Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Ryuukyuu Island (Pirate Isles), good part of SE and South Asia, as well as Persia and Caspian & Tigris Euphrates delta (Basra), was well acquainted with rice for at least a millennia, some even more than one. Rice domestication in Asia being sourced to the Red River by Hanoi and Caspian and Oxus and Mesopotamian Persian Gulf delta in Persia. Strange how technology spreads and can skip areas for long periods -- the Chinese elites favored their wheat until they had to flee their home river.)

Also good to see you back, SHARK! 

Interesting setting... And a lot of stuff there you could use.