Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2022, 07:06:33 PM
Greetings!

Well, in my studies of ancient China, it is especially enlightening to see the contrast between Medieval Europe and Medieval China. Take the Song Empire, around the 10th or 11th centuries, A.D. The Song Empire had cities of over 1 million people, and many, many cities of hundreds of thousands of people. These cities were often highly fortified with extensive walls and towers. The Song cities were highly organized, laid out in districts, all the while being in position to maximize their resources and profitability. Apparently, the Song Empire was capitalist, with merchants of every kind coming and going, trading goods from around the world.

The major cities of the Song Empire had 24-hour business and commerce, with an vibrant nightlife, restaurants of every kind, and promoting artistry and intellectual pursuits everywhere. There were published books--novels, romance novels, books on cuisine and cooking, and more. Evidently, the Song cities were well-lit, well patrolled and guarded. The people everywhere--according to some quoted primary sources--were happy, joyful, industrious, and prosperous.

When thinking about the "Medieval World" in developing my campaigns, it has definitely been eye-opening to consider not just Medieval Europe--but Medieval China as well.

Of course, as a friend pointed out to me, embracing a Medieval Chinese theme for a campaign radically changes many of the underlying assumptions of the game. The Song Empire was clearly the most advanced society on the planet at the time, and approached many modern sensibilities, with 24-hour market-places, nightlife, restaurants, cuisine, international trade, large-scale book publishing, advanced crafting skills, artistry, well-developed theater traditions, advanced universities, paper money, an official and elaborate fashion industry, high court diplomacy, and superior technology and processes in every field. It's staggering to go down a list of all of the achievements and accomplishments of the Song Empire. All o these things were *normal* for the Song Empire.

I suppose embracing a Medieval Chinese theme would radically change many campaign assumptions. What do you think? I have been tempted, for certain. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My game Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate is a fantasy Song Dynasty analog (lots of key aspects are different because it is a fantasy world, and it emulates wuxia and supernatural stories, but the cultural details were modeled after Song Dynasty). RBRB is set in a more timeless china setting modeled after movies and novels . 

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 19, 2022, 04:06:49 AM
Song dynasty is a fascinating contradiction. You have to give allowance for a lot of... how to nicely put it... hagiography and good PR because this was a period of simultaneous contraction and loss of homeland (Northern Song & Huang Ho Yellow river), and forced colonization (Nam Viet (not Vietnam, mind you!) & Yangtze river) and displacement (Haka peoples, Northern Song refugees, technically Han, but treated like Han+).

Technically not capitalist, more entrepeneurial, but that also led to special dispensations and immunities to their displaced northern bretheren Haka (the Northern Song), which in turn led to speculation bubbles and great religious revivals, millenarial cults, and much turmoil within and throughout. And the 'barbarians' were winning piece by piece all along the fringes. And all of this news was collated by a counter-reformationist Neo-Confucianism that sought to "clean up" the records to set a good future example to follow. Basically literati rewriting things to win the future of a decaying empire with the right-thinking narratives.  The world may not repeat, but it rhymes -- thanks Matk Twain.

It was an interesting time no doubt, but read from the surrounding outsider lands and internally dispossessed the fissures were very real as the sanctioned choir sang louder. A great period full of contradictions and veneered decadence.

(edit: also little known was China was VERY LATE to the rice game. It was because of the Yangtze river colonization during the Southern Song (and loss of the Huang Ho Yellow river that was wheat growing in Norther Song) that China switched to rice around 1000 CE (AD). Before them Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Ryuukyuu Island (Pirate Isles), good part of SE and South Asia, as well as Persia and Caspian & Tigris Euphrates delta (Basra), was well acquainted with rice for at least a millennia, some even more than one. Rice domestication in Asia being sourced to the Red River by Hanoi and Caspian and Oxus and Mesopotamian Persian Gulf delta in Persia. Strange how technology spreads and can skip areas for long periods -- the Chinese elites favored their wheat until they had to flee their home river.)

Also good to see you back, SHARK! 

Not sure where you got the false info that they weren't growing rice in China prior to the Song.  What happened during the Song was that new strains were introduced from Champa.  This allowed for more intensive cropping, particularly in the south, where rice was (and is) more popular and widely grown.  So yeah, the north was more oriented towards other grains, but it wasn't like they had no knowledge of rice or that it wasn't eaten.  The Chinese pioneered rice cultivation and it spread from there to China's neighbors.  But even today, Chinese people will often ask, upon meeting someone, "Rice or noodles?"  This supposedly identifies you as a northerner or southerner.  My wife, who is from the north, is a noodle person.  But, of course she still eats lots of rice too.

As for Neo-Confucianism, that actually started in the late Tang (618-907), but picked up steam in the Southern Song (1127-1279), with the writings of Zhu Xi & the Cheng brothers.  It was initially more of a reaction against Buddhist influence, but once the Northern Song (960-1126) fell to the Jurchens, the anti-barbarian rhetoric in society as a whole increased.  Then it was under the Mongols, ironically enough, that the civil service exams gained their Neo-Confucian emphasis.  They had been much broader in scope before then.  That in itself probably isn't as interesting from a gaming perspective, but you can work the bureaucracy and exam system into plots & scenarios.

If you want a detailed picture of late Song society, read Jacques Gernet's Daily Life in China on the Eve of the Mongol Invasion.  Theoretically, you can also read Marco Polo, but that's not always the easiest read.  Incidentally, some scholars also think the whole thing was made up and Polo never went to China at all.  See: https://www.amazon.com/Did-Marco-Polo-Go-China/dp/0813389992/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1QXDUN8FYV1EO&keywords=frances+wood&qid=1642600213&s=books&sprefix=frances+wood%2Cstripbooks%2C107&sr=1-4

The Chinese produce tons of series that are set in the Middle Ages. Needless to say, you can use them as inspiration.
The most notable one atm is Luoyang, although it is set in the Tang Dynasty, not Song:

Quote from: Rhymer88 on January 19, 2022, 12:33:40 PM
The Chinese produce tons of series that are set in the Middle Ages. Needless to say, you can use them as inspiration.
The most notable one atm is Luoyang, although it is set in the Tang Dynasty, not Song:

For the Tang I would also recommend the Detective Dee movies and the film Legend of the Demon Cat.

There are a lot of good movies and books set in the song dynasty. The condor heroes series spans the Song to Yuan Dynasty (and end at the start of the Ming). The Water Margin is also set in this period. Fourteen Amazons is one of my favorite movies set in this period. Eight Diagram Pole Fighter is another. The Four trilogy is also set in the Song and is probably the most gameable series of movies (it just is easy to see how it would translate into a party in a typical RPG). I am pretty sure the movie Legend of the Mountain also is set during the Song period (but it mostly takes place in a remote haunted fort).

In doing a non-Ancient or Medieval French/England European Setting the focus of the setting has to be its culture and religious/spiritual outlooks on things and how different they are from bog standard European Fantasy. This also includes the cultures Myths and Legends, if there is a pantheon of deities and spiritual ways of life and the way these influence their society.

12th to 14th century European Medieval fantasy has been hammered into us so much that it's become the only form of medieval life that many of us see and a lot of people seem to think that that's how the entire world was like because of this. Even a setting in Europe but placed earlier in history and in a different culture, like how Aquelarre is set in Medieval Spain, has a totally different feel and look to it even though it should be part of the Medieval Europe motif, but it's not.

Ancient and Medieval China definitely needs more attention brought to it.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 18, 2022, 07:27:38 PM
Sounds amazing!  It saddens me to know that that the Song Empire didn't last, and fell to corruption and ultimately barbarian invaders. 

I wonder what stage you will place your civilization in?

Greetings!

Hey there, Svenhelgrim! Yes, it is a truly fascinating subject! I think I will establish the China-like empire at around the 11th-12th centuries. That way, they are still firmly still in a medieval framework.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Even though it is freely available, how many people have read "Outlaws of the Water Margin"?
http://uploads.worldlibrary.net/uploads/pdf/20130423230739the_outlaws_of_the_marsh_pdf.pdf
It's very evocative of a Medieval China setting.

Quote from: Greentongue on January 18, 2022, 08:22:41 PM
While very interesting and certainly a change of pace, I suspect finding people able to wrap their heads around the culture would be a challenge.
I suspect that most people would be willing to watch a movie in the setting and not that interested in trying to play in it.
Unless of course it was just Medieval Europe with funny names.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Hi, Greentongue! Yeah, I'm afraid you may be right. I have some good players, intelligent, well-read, and such, but still, the culture thing can be intimidating for sure. I sometimes wonder, players often have difficulties in trying to grasp anything like a semi-realistic ancient or medieval European milieu--how much more of a barrier to expect them to get into a totally foreign culture?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Pat on January 18, 2022, 08:33:41 PM
It is tough introducing a significantly different setting in RPGs. In a movie, there are all those visuals. In a book, you can have hundreds of pages of descriptive prose. But nobody except a GM is going to read all that crap to play an RPG, and RPGs aren't just passive pre-scripted entertainment, they're freeform and active, which makes it much harder.

The best way might to create a bridge. A way to start in a more familiar setting, and introduce the elements either gradually or through immersion, but with the expectation it's as new to the characters as it is to the players. It can be a distant realm with travelers who visit the PC's home, and maybe take a trip there. It could be a magical gate, or a ship blown off course and sunk, where the PCs are dumped into a new realm and have adapt to the local customs and power structures. The stranger in a strange land is a hoary and effective motif.

Greetings!

Hey there, Pat! Yeah, indeed, I suspect you are right. I will probably have them make their normal characters, then have them go on a great journey and arrive in the China-like empire. Having them roll up native China-like characters might be too overwhelming or them. *Laughing*

Though, you know, honestly, I realize there is this perception, but in my own studies of Ancient China, and Ancient India, both on my own study and for my university course work, much of the differences are often cosmetic. Politically, militarily, economically, family relationships, inheritance--they have all the same issues that Europeans have, from any time period. Similar problems, similar solutions, similar struggles. I often found myself drawing connections between China and India with ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Emperor Justinian and Byzantium, Grand Prince Vladimir of Rus--it all seems relatable to me, personally.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Not that it matters for roleplaying purposes, but the Song is not regarded as "medieval" China.  Only specialists in European history would apply such a designation to the Song.  It is generally considered early modern, or perhaps late imperial, with the Ming (1368-1644) generally being considered the advent of modern China by specialists.  For example, per capita iron production rates achieved in the Song were not surpassed elsewhere in the world until the Industrial Revolution.  And Shark has already mentioned many other notable traits.

For adventuring purposes, having your players go to the mysterious Celestial Empire of (insert name here) to say, retrieve a rare herb, magic item, or scroll, or help sign a treaty against a common enemy would all be good ways to introduce them to this "exotic" place.  The old Horde boxed set for AD&D 2e has stuff you could use, or maybe wait for Pundit to publish his Silk Road game.  And, as we've discussed there are plenty of real world sources to mine from Marco Polo to William of Rubruck.  好運!

Quote from: Persimmon on January 19, 2022, 09:21:21 PM
Not that it matters for roleplaying purposes, but the Song is not regarded as "medieval" China.  Only specialists in European history would apply such a designation to the Song.  It is generally considered early modern, or perhaps late imperial, with the Ming (1368-1644) generally being considered the advent of modern China by specialists.  For example, per capita iron production rates achieved in the Song were not surpassed elsewhere in the world until the Industrial Revolution.  And Shark has already mentioned many other notable traits.

For adventuring purposes, having your players go to the mysterious Celestial Empire of (insert name here) to say, retrieve a rare herb, magic item, or scroll, or help sign a treaty against a common enemy would all be good ways to introduce them to this "exotic" place.  The old Horde boxed set for AD&D 2e has stuff you could use, or maybe wait for Pundit to publish his Silk Road game.  And, as we've discussed there are plenty of real world sources to mine from Marco Polo to William of Rubruck.  好運!

Is Pundit doing a Silk Roads game? I know he mentioned during the recent love stream that he had a massive amount of knowledge on China... Was really hoping he would do an OSR China game similar to Dark Albion / Lion and Dragon. I'd be interested to see how he would design such a game.

Quote from: World_Warrior on January 18, 2022, 08:40:02 PM
I would like to hear more. What system would you use? One problem I always have with running a Chinese-inspired game is martial arts. I was never satisfied with how AD&D or D&D 3 did their martial arts systems.

Greetings!

Cheers, World Warrior! System-wise, I use D&D 5E.

As for Martial Arts, with the way that Hit Points, AC, and damage work in D&D, it is fairly simple to create a few Martial Arts Feats (Traditions) which increase unarmed combat damage, initiative, an individual's AC, and be done with it. Weapons are, at the end of the day, of primary importance.

I have developed three large empires and kingdoms in my China-like area, with a dozen neighboring kingdoms or territories. There are 6 major religions, and about 25 prominent human languages. Besides the larger human kingdoms, there are also many human Pagan tribes that live throughout the rugged wilderness. Along the coasts, there are several large groups of islands, featuring powerful pirate states. There are 6 distinctive Monastic Traditions, and many philosophies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 19, 2022, 09:43:14 PM

Quote from: World_Warrior on January 18, 2022, 08:40:02 PM
I would like to hear more. What system would you use? One problem I always have with running a Chinese-inspired game is martial arts. I was never satisfied with how AD&D or D&D 3 did their martial arts systems.

Greetings!

Cheers, World Warrior! System-wise, I use D&D 5E.

As for Martial Arts, with the way that Hit Points, AC, and damage work in D&D, it is fairly simple to create a few Martial Arts Feats (Traditions) which increase unarmed combat damage, initiative, an individual's AC, and be done with it. Weapons are, at the end of the day, of primary importance.

I have developed three large empires and kingdoms in my China-like area, with a dozen neighboring kingdoms or territories. There are 6 major religions, and about 25 prominent human languages. Besides the larger human kingdoms, there are also many human Pagan tribes that live throughout the rugged wilderness. Along the coasts, there are several large groups of islands, featuring powerful pirate states. There are 6 distinctive Monastic Traditions, and many philosophies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That sounds awesome. The one thing that 5E did right was giving more with the Feats, instead of chaining long sequences of Feats together to get what you wanted. I could easily see entire kung fu stances and even some secret techniques being done as Feats.

I have thought about how Pundit does his magic system in Lion and Dragon, and have considered eventually doing a martial arts system that takes the framework of the OA system, but instead of the basic moves, replacing with more Wuxia-style techniques. Unlike a Proficiency system (OA), Feats (3E), or Vancian-type Maneuver system (Dragon Fist), I'd just have characters have the ability to train to learn new techniques at each level (probably a DC check or something) but can also learn extra techniques by deciphering ancient manuals or learning from crazed kung fu hermits, etc. Less balance and more engagement from players.

But that's how I would do it.

The Feat system for 5E would absolutely work for that system.

Quote from: Aglondir on January 18, 2022, 09:02:49 PM
Sounds excellent! The Tang dynasty is my favorite, but the Song has so many possibilities.

Are you thinking historical, alt-History, or historically-inspired fantasy?

What system are you using?

Greetings!

Aglondir! How are you doing?

Yes, I will be using History-inspired fantasy. I have my own world of Thandor, with historical analogs, but the map of course is different. I use D&D 5E. I designed my world to be larger than our own world, essentially so that I could fit in all the various historical realms I wanted, plus have lots of room for many of the implied races of the game--Orcs, Beastmen, Ogres, Giants, Dragons, and more. Then, I also wanted to always have plenty of additional weird space available for random, hybrid kingdoms, or kingdoms raised up by player characters within the game campaign.

So, yes, the world is vaguely familiar, while also different.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jeff37923 on January 18, 2022, 09:33:17 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 18, 2022, 07:27:38 PM
Sounds amazing!  It saddens me to know that that the Song Empire didn't last, and fell to corruption and ultimately barbarian invaders. 

I wonder what stage you will place your civilization in?

Well, there is your campaign right there. Protect the Empire from fast-breeding monsters who are bent on raping and pillaging the Empire. For added drama, have the players be exposed to examples that the Empire has become decadent and should fall.

Greetings!

Hey there, Jeff! *Laughing* Yes, yes, so many cool possibilities! It is interesting, too, that ancient China actually often yo-yo'd back and forth between virtue and competence, and corruption and decadence throughout the centuries. Lots of endless drama and tension.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK