The two possible exceptions I can thinko of to Balbinus theory is SAVAGE WORLDS and GURPS.

Both basic books for those games are very nicely illustrated, and both of those contain very playable games.

 The Recent SERENITY and BATTLESTAR GALACTICA games by Margaret Weis Productions might also qualify - but I haven't heard yet how playable they are...or if they are.


- Ed C.

I've said this before, Balb: If this were 1995 or even 2000, you'd have a point. But this is 2007.

If the industry = companies that have the wherewithal regularly to publish those glossy hardcovers plus supplements, then the industry = dying if not dead. WOTC always excepted, duh. Further exceptions (A&8) prove the rule.

GURPS: done. WoD: done. d20: done. Fantasy Flight (RPGs), Atlas, AEG, DP9: gone. WW: sold.

Besides a select few d20 companies, there is no middle tier left. Consequently, there is no flood of pricey full-color game books. Because there is no flood of anything.

There WILL be one for a year or so post-4E, but it'll be a pale shadow of the first, because retailers have smartened up big time.

Quote from: BalbinusThe truth is, most games being bought don't actually see much play.  They're bought by collectors, they're bought by people who like reading game books, they're bought by people who plan to play them but don't actually manage to because their group says no or their group only plays something else or for whatever reason.

Maybe most gamers fall into that group. Maybe there are more people who have the money to buy books they don't use than there are people who play in regular games and don't have much money.

QuoteWhat's the answer?  Fucked if I know, but a recession might help a touch.  That and remembering that we are not here to support an industry, we are hobbyists and our hobby is gaming, the industry is not there to service us, it's there to service a quite different hobby that likes to buy and read game books as a primary source of fun.

So you don't fault the industry for providing what the market wants, but you want to see the industry hurt by a recession anyway.

And how do publishers printing shiny, high-end books stop anyone else from publishing cheap gaming goodness? Why do you think the predominance of one is responsible for the paucity of the other?

As of page 13, these are the results of this "latest RPG purchase" thread.

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7317

Not sure if it's of any use, but it's interesting to see what people on the site are buying.

1e Gamma World
3e/3.5 books
50 Fathoms
A Conspiracy of Shadows comic
Aces & Eights
Aces & Eights
Aces & Eights
AD&D - The rest of 'em
After the Bomb
After the Bomb (new edition)
All Tomorrow's Zombies
All Tomorrow's Zombies
Armageddon
Army of Darkness
Ars Magica
Ars Magica's Order of Hermes: True Lineages
Artesia
Atlas of Gaea Circuses and Carnivals
B/X D&D books
B4: The Lost City
B5: Horror on the Hill
Back in the Corps Again for Nebuleon
Beyond Countless Doorways:
Burning Empires
Burning Empires
Castles & Crusades GM Screen
Changeling the Lost
Changeling: The Lost
Changeling: The Lost
City of Brass
City of Brass by Necromancer Games
City State of the Invincible Overlord (Hardback).
Colonial Gothic
Colonial Gothic
Compass of Terrestrial Directions 2: The West (Softcover).
Complete Psionicist Handbook and the Expanded Psionicist book for 3.5e
Conspiracy X 2nd edition
Creature Catalog (for RC)
Crusader Magazines (5, 6, 7)
D&D Expert Rulebook
D&D Expert Rulebook
Damnation City
Dark Conspiracies + Supplement
Deadlands Reloaded,
DELTA GREEN: EYES ONLY
Denziens of San Angelo
Dogs in the Vineyard
Dragon and Dungeon
Dragonlance - Miscellaneous
Dragon's Gate: San Angelo's Chinatown
Dread: The First Book of Pandemonium
Dungeon Crawl Classics #40-something, the Treasure Maps one
Earthdawn Gamemaster's Compendium
Earthdawn Player's Compendium
Enemies of San Angelo
Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk,
Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk:
Faith Conquers
Fantastic Location: City of Peril
Fear Itself,
Forgotten Realms Boxed Sets
Forward to Adventure!
Gang Wars
Gestalt: The Hero Within
Grey Ranks
GURPS Age of Napoleon
GURPS Martia Arts
GURPS Martial Arts
GURPS Motor Pool
GURPS Planet of Adventure
GURPS Shapeshifters
GURPS Who's Who 1
GURPS Who's Who 2
GURPS:MARTIAL ARTS
GURPS:SUPERS POD
Hackmaster GMs Guide and Players Handbook
Hackmaster Player's Handbook and GM Guide
Hercules & Xena RPG
Hero's Banner
HEX
Hidden Crypts & Ruins of the Wild
Hollow Earth Expedition by Exile Studios
In Harm's Way
Inspectres
Iron Heros PHB, GM, and Beastiary
Judas Grail
Judges Guild Islands Book
Kobold Quartery,
L5R
Legend of the Five Rings 3e
Legions of Darkness
Lords of Madness
M&M2 Pocket Player's Guide
Magic Item Compendium
Magic of Incarnum
Marvel Super Heroes
Marvel Super Heroes (Advanced)
Mekton Zeta
Metropolis
Monster's and Treasure 2nd printing (C&C)
Monte Cook's World of Darkness
Monte Cook's World of Darkness
MSH Modules - Most of 'em
Mutants Down Under
Nations of Barsaive
Nebuleon Hardcover
nMAge.
NWOD book
Oadenol's Codex (Softcover).
OD&D orginal three booklets
Og: Unearthed Edition
Omlevex
Pathfinder Volume 1, Burnt Offerings:
Player's Companion
Player's Guide to Kaiin (Dying Earth)
Post-Apocalyptic Hero
Prince Valiant
Promethean
Qin
Reality Storm: When Worlds Collide
Reign
RIFTS Chaos Earth
Robotech - All of it
Roma Imperious Hardcover
Run out the Guns
San Angelo: City of Heroes
Savage Worlds
Savage Worlds
Savage Worlds Explorer Edition.
Savage Worlds Explorers Edition
Savage Worlds Explorer's Edition
Savage Worlds Explorer's Guide
SAVAGE WORLDS:EXPLORER's Edition
Scaum Valley Gazetteer (Dying Earth)
Shades of Earth Austrian Holiday
Shadow of Yesterday
Shadowrun 4th ed
Shadowrun: Augmentation
Sigmar's Heirs
Solomane Kane (the last copy of the 200 printed !),
Spirit of the Century
Spycraft 1.0 books
Star Wars Saga Edition
Star Wars Saga Edition
Star Wars Saga Edition
Star Wars Saga Edition
Starship Troopers Pocket Players Guide
Stuff! for EABA
Stupor Mundi
SW Explorers Guide
T&T boxed set
The Algernon Files 2E
The Burning Tree
The City of Brass
The Echoes of Heaven/The Throne of God
The Excellent Prisimatic Spray vol.1 Issues 4&5 (the Dying Earth RPG magazine)
The Fires of War: The Algernon Files, Vol.2
The Kandris Seal
The Last Dominion
The Last Free City/The Festering Earth
The Lost Conquistador Mine
The Lost Kingdom of the Dwarves/On Corrupted Ground
The Roach Returns (for above)
The Shab-al-Hiri Roach
The Ultimate Energy Projector
Thieves of Fortress Badabaskor:
TMNT - Miscellaneous
Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords,
Traveler Hero
Traveller, the first 8 books.
True20 Companion
True20 Companion (Softcover).
Twilight 2000 and first two modules
Vampire, Mage, Changeling
Vampire: The Requiem
Warhammer 40K: Rogue Trader
WFRP 2e: Tome of Corruption
Wlderlands of High Fantasy (Boxed set).
World Builder's Guidebook
World's Greatest GM Screen (that vinyl thing from Hammerdog)
Zeppelin Age

It would appear that there is a "tilting point" in all of this: as you've said, its not in the industry's best interest to release complete games in one shot with no particular need for supplemental material.

On the other hand, if you make stuff that is excessively intentionally incomplete (Brave New World, for example), you end up creating a consumer backlash.

The trick is to do something that is sufficiently useful and complete that it can be played by itself, but make the game sufficiently interesting and give yourself enough room to write up enough stuff that the average player will WANT to get to supplement the main product.
I think WFRP works in this way.  You don't actually NEED anything other than the main book to play it, but you quickly get addicted to the various sourcebooks (and its not like they're even "splatbooks" or anything, in most cases, arguably excepting the magic book and bestiary, you don't actually need anything in the supplements to enhance your game, its all cool optional shit).

RPGPundit

I like the idea of corebook + companion.

Not a book for every splat/power/patch of land.

Quote from: Consonant DudeGood call on AEG. And call it what you will (intentional or not), but Mongoose are royally incompetent and their business and success was built churning absolute crap. And they're still going under the same business model.

I dunno - I think Mongoose was very, very canny.  They built capital from (initally quite crappy imho) d20 imprint products.  They used that money to (a) release wild variants on d20, like Conan; and (b) diversify out of d20 with releases like Paranoia XP and RuneQuest.  To me, this shows a pretty keen understanding of the market; I got the sense they had a business plan instead of being just a couple of guys churning out products.  It was also because of this that they were very insulated from the 3.0-3.5 d20 crash.

-O

Quote from: obrynI dunno - I think Mongoose was very, very canny.

I completely agree that were very canny. Matt Sprange is one of the individuals who did the most (business-wise) with the new playing field of D20 and the OGL. I think that's brilliant.

But I find the products shitty as hell regardless

Quote from: Consonant DudeI completely agree that were very canny. Matt Sprange is one of the individuals who did the most (business-wise) with the new playing field of D20 and the OGL. I think that's brilliant.

But I find the products shitty as hell regardless

No argument here.  I mean, the Slayer's Guides were completely disposable - a blatant attempt to capture a booming market with crappy, hack books.

I've seen good reviews of Conan OGL, though, and I can say from experience that Paranoia XP is quite wonderful.  (I think the new Runequest is one of my least-favorite gaming purchases ever, though.)

-O

Conan is pretty nice. I dunno about the second edition, though.

Since you can't tell from just looking over the rules how well they actually work without taking them home and using them for a while (sometimes rules flaws take some time to become evident), why wouldn't you buy the nice looking one?  Once you get it home, if it does suck, at least you have the cool dragons and hot witch-babes to look at.  

Also, last time I checked, when you go to the book store they sell hardcover glossy books, if they sell RPGs at all.   They don't sell soft covers so far as I've seen, with the exception of specialty stores like The Complete Strategist in NYC.   My guess is that most people driving sales are buying the books from book stores, not the Internet.   Hard to say, though, since publishers are apparently keeping their sales numbers close to the chest for the most part.   Anyway, that's just my hunch.  

All of this almost seems to suggest that if you do have a great game system that is a labor of love and really does work nicely that you might want to invest in a nice presentation with ... hardcover, glossy pages, and lots of awesome looking images.   Wouldn't that, then, just Rule?

I think every major book store in my area that has any rpg stuff has something softcover. I posted pictures here at one time of one of the bigger stores.

I thought I'd posted this already, but I can't find it...

Nowdays, if you want, you can get more products for 70s and 80s games than you actually could in the 70s and 80s. And usually they're free.

For example, you can download the entire Dragon Warriors series(http://www.the-underdogs.info/showbook.php?id=31) , as well as get maps of the world (http://www.truls.org/Maps/Legend.html) which compare pretty favourably to maps at the time, and a bunch of house rules (//www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Chasm/7207/reaver.html) which are the equivalent of lots of magazine articles, even if there ever was a Dragon Warriors magazine and you could get hold of it.

And Dragon Warriors is hardly the most-played game out there.

So really, if you want content you'd be better off getting on the internet - maybe that's why commercial products concentrate on looking good (if indeed they do).