Quote from: oggsmash on March 20, 2023, 05:17:55 AM
  I would argue in the context of being in shape and defense, that applies to hit points...as the bruise on the cheek instead of a fracture or KO is more akin to the fighter having the skill and experience to move just enough to have the blow slide off or to roll with it to a degree (this also leads us back to DX).   In the old school sense hit points are largely metaphysical instead of pure beef to absorb damage.  So in a sense constitution has always contributed to defense...the more of them you have the more you have to lose before you start taking serious bodily injury.

Is serious bloody injury just a descriptive way of having a low percentage of your max hit points or is it something represented mechanically other than being taken out and dying when you reach zero hit points?

Regarding Constitution as always being part of your defense, if that's how you view hit points as well, then yes, that's the case. It could be said that AC, saving throws, and HP all contribute to your effective health in D&D and OSR games.

Quote from: ronwisegamgee on March 20, 2023, 05:30:44 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on March 20, 2023, 05:17:55 AM
  I would argue in the context of being in shape and defense, that applies to hit points...as the bruise on the cheek instead of a fracture or KO is more akin to the fighter having the skill and experience to move just enough to have the blow slide off or to roll with it to a degree (this also leads us back to DX).   In the old school sense hit points are largely metaphysical instead of pure beef to absorb damage.  So in a sense constitution has always contributed to defense...the more of them you have the more you have to lose before you start taking serious bodily injury.

Is serious bloody injury just a descriptive way of having a low percentage of your max hit points or is it something represented mechanically other than being taken out and dying when you reach zero hit points?

Regarding Constitution as always being part of your defense, if that's how you view hit points as well, then yes, that's the case. It could be said that AC, saving throws, and HP all contribute to your effective health in D&D and OSR games.

Gygax explained this a long time ago.  hitpoints in old school and really modern D&D do not mean the same thing as they do in games like GURPS (where any hit point loss is some level of injury).  Massive HP for PCs indicates near misses/grazes/light bruises instead of hacked or impaled. 

@oggsmash

I'm asking you what you meant by serious bodily injury when you stated "...the more of them you have the more you have to lose before taking serious bodily injury."

  I answered that directly.  Grazed or bruised instead of hacked or impaled.   The 1st level fighter with 10 hp who gets hit with a 12hp damage thrust is run through and on the ground bleeding out.  The 10th level fighter with 85 points who gets hit with that same shot has his armor/clothing deflect or absorb the hit and has a bad bruise on his skin he will feel for a few days.

@oggsmash

With the example you've provided, I can now infer that when you said "serious bodily injury," you mean being reduced to zero hit points.  Depending on the version of D&D or OSR game, that could mean two things:
1) Unconscious and dying.
2) Dead. 

All I wanted to know was the game mechanic you were pointing to with the "serious bodily injury" description.  Referring me to Gygax's explanation of what hit points were was not an answer, much less a direct one.

I'm down for this.

In the Thomas Jane "Punisher" movie, the stunt team forgot to swap out his knife for a collapsible knife, and Jane ended up stabbing the wrestler (Kevin Nash) who played the Russian in the chest. Nash didn't break character, instead continuing and completing the fight scene with a knife sticking out of his chest. It wasn't his DEX score that let him do that.

Quote from: ronwisegamgee on March 21, 2023, 05:50:07 AM
@oggsmash

With the example you've provided, I can now infer that when you said "serious bodily injury," you mean being reduced to zero hit points.  Depending on the version of D&D or OSR game, that could mean two things:
1) Unconscious and dying.
2) Dead. 

All I wanted to know was the game mechanic you were pointing to with the "serious bodily injury" description.  Referring me to Gygax's explanation of what hit points were was not an answer, much less a direct one.

  Injured is injured.  Dead is dead.  I am not seeing where this is hard to get.   Again gygax put it out there dropped at zero dead at -10.   I suppose you may have never read 1st edition and that would make what I am saying a good deal more obscure.  I was operating under the assumption we both are referencing 1st edition..if not my apologies.

The Transformers RPG actually has an interesting defense mechanic. Armor and "Constitution" are one defense number, and agility is another. The defender can choose to "soak" the damage on their toughness, which means attacks that have triggers when they hit, like burning, will still affect them if they resist the damage. Or they can try to avoid the hit altogether by relying on agility, but you can't rely on agility for every attack, like area effects or special attacks.

There is an argument for using CON as a component of AC, or at least the ability of a character to function 10/10 in the harsh environment of melee combat. As an aside, check out the final combat scene in the movie 'The Duel' with Adam Driver and Matt Damon for a pretty good look at just how harsh and demanding full melee in full armor would be. It would be very easy to make a rule that goes something like this:

After three rounds of combat, a character must make a CON save (roll either 3d6 or a D20 under their Con score, depending on the system) or lose all STR and DEX bonuses applicable to melee.

Based on X rounds of  combat and a Y CON score, characters lose all STR and DEX bonuses applicable to combat (no save allowed) AND they still have to make the CON save or begin to suffer penalties on succeeding rounds.

OR...

For example, (using 1E/2E rules...)

CON 3-6 character loses all STR and DEX bonuses after 2 rounds, and on the third round begins suffering a cumulative -1 penalty to all attack and damage rolls, as well as AC  on a failed CON check.

CON 7-10 character loses all STR and DEX bonuses after 3 rounds, and on the fourth round begins suffering a cumulative -1 penalty to all attack and damage rolls, as well as AC  on a failed CON check.

CON 11-13 character loses all STR and DEX bonuses after 4 rounds, and on the fifth round begins suffering a cumulative -1 penalty to all attack and damage rolls, as well as AC  on a failed CON check.

CON 14-16 character loses all STR and DEX bonuses after 6 rounds, and on the seventh round begins suffering a cumulative -1 penalty to all attack and damage rolls, as well as AC  on a failed CON check.

CON 17 character loses all STR and DEX bonuses after 7 rounds, and on the eighth round begins suffering a cumulative -1 penalty to all attack and damage rolls, as well as AC  on a failed CON check.

CON 18+ : You are Conan the f'n barbarian or Beowulf and can fight unimpeded for the entire encounter, even if it last days.

EX: A player with a 12 CON can fight normally for 4 rounds going all out. Realistic? Can you sprint for 4 minutes straight? Maybe, maybe not. Anyhow, starting round five, the CON saves begin. Say Hagar the horrible misses his CON save on rounds 5 and 7, but makes it on round 6. That means that in round 8, he is fighting at a -2 penalty. So the cumulative effect happens only on a missed check. A successful check maintains whatever the current status quo is. Maybe if he beats his check by a margin of 5 or more, he rallies a point and gets to reduce his penalty by 1.

It would definitely put CON up there with STR and DEX for combat stats. Depending on how crunchy you wanted to make it, you could make recovery automatic after a combat encounter, or homerule that the penalties only go away by turn after the combat (perhaps requiring additional checks to negate them). And so on.

I have never actually used a rule like this- I just invented it on the fly based on the topic. But food for thought, anyway. It would serve to boost CON while nerfing STR and DEX a bit.