Quote from: walkerp"urge your players"?  Sounds like swinespeak to me.

Okay, so WotC themselves aren't making minis mandatory.  Instead they are asking DM's to make them mandatory.  Having their cake and eating it to.

You did read the bit where that was taken from the 1E AD&D rulebook didn't you? :rolleyes:

Quote from: KrakaJakSo, it's made pretty explicit in the Star Wars Saga rulebook (i.e. right on the message from the developers at the beginning) that Star Wars Saga would not exist if the Star Wars Minis line wasn't so successful. They present the game as a companion ruleset for SW:minis. Now SW:Saga is a very good game in it's own right, but the only reason it survives is as a companion peice to SW: minis.

So, do you think the same has happened to D&D 4e. The RPG is not the focus, but strictly a companion line to the minis game? I haven't read the core rulebooks, but I have played Keep on the Shadowfel. Keep on the Shadowfel felt, quite a lot, like D&D miniatures: campaigns.

So...for those of you who have the corebooks (by luck, hook or crook), does it stand up as its own game? Or does it feel like a companion product (like SW:Saga)to the minis or digital gametable?

Star Wars d20 sold poorly, but its mini line was hot.

D&D always sold well.  The mini line ended up being a VERY nice aftereffect of it.

SAGA was only released because the mini sales were high enough to prop it up.  D&D needs no propping up.  No, I don't believe that at all.  And what I've read reads like an RPG not a mini wargame.

Quote from: JackalopeI do definitely think that 4E is designed to make the use of miniatures a given, especially with adventures like Shadowfell coming with dozens of maps, and tactical

It really is HeroQuest with more complicated characters.  And HeroQuest requires miniatures.

I agree with the first - sure, they want as many people buying the minis as possible.  They make money off both, and you get minis that look exactly like the MM critters, plus no painting (HUGE bonus for fuddle-fingers me).  And sure, they are making minis the default assumption, and incorporating them into the rules.

But its not Heroquest.  Its not remotely Heroquest.  Having read the books extensively, it reads just like any other RPG books I've ever read.  And, point of fact, feels very different from the Warhammer books I've read.  Of course, according to many, I was playing a "tactical minis game" all these years with 3.5, and not an RPG like I thought.

So if you feel 3ed/3.5 is a tactical minis game nothing in 4ed is going to dissuade you of that bias.  But its an RPG.  Not unlike any other RPG on the market, but with better art and editing, and cleaner pages.

Quote from: Aos2. 4E looks like the next place to go if you are looking for a more complex version of something like Heroscape- as well you might be, if you were say 12-14, maybe. The characters in Heroscape (and maybe games like Descent, too?) have powers and the game is tactical; it even uses a battle-mat and minis. Up the complexity of the tactical stuff a notch or two, expand the potential size of the battle-mat and the ranks of advasaries to near infinite, add in the RPG stuff and you have something like what 4e looks like- to me anyway. With the power ups each encounter would almost be like a mini game of Heroscape.
I think the minis are essential to that.

I also think I may buy this thing. Maybe.

I agree with this completely.  If I end up picking up 4e at some point in the future it would definitely be because of the minis and playing it as a tactical minis game.  

(Note: HeroQuest and HeroScape are different games )

And...it just so happens that WotC recently took over control of Heroscape.....

Potential Implications?

A) A D&Dized Heroscape will become the new "basic set"

B) WotC got Heroscape because they view it as competion for D&D minis and want to kill it

Quote from: ZulgyanThe 4th DMG says that D&D Miniatures are required materials to play the game, while character sheets are recommended.

Which isn't as bad as it sounds:

Quote from: DMG pg 7All the players need some way to record important information about their characters. You can use plain paper, but a character sheet photocopied from the one printed in the back of the Player's Handbook is more helpful—or use the D&D Character Sheets product. Some players put their powers on index cards instead of their character sheets to make it easier to keep track of which ones they've used.

You need some way to record important information about your characters; they recommend using character sheets, either the ones from the PHB or from D&D Character Sheets.

I was concerned, at least philosophically, about minis being required, as well, but it says you just need something to mark your position on the Battle Grid. And it says the Battle Grid can just be graph paper. So for those of you accustomed to playing with graph paper maps and marking positions in pencil, feel safe: your way is, at least tacitly, Approved By Wizards. [Hey, some people care about that sort of thing.] But I do find their strongly worded recommendations for "Battle Bat and D&D Miniature" play to be...I don't know, funny. It's a good idea for them, but really, so not necessary. I know some people like minis, but to me it seems like a tremendous waste of money; we use wooden spindles and it's never been to our detriment, and the whole kit cost less than a single mini.

Quote from: wulfgarAnd...it just so happens that WotC recently took over control of Heroscape.....

Potential Implications?

A) A D&Dized Heroscape will become the new "basic set"

B) WotC got Heroscape because they view it as competion for D&D minis and want to kill it

That's what I was getting at- Heroscape is Basic D&D now.

Quote from: AosThat's what I was getting at- Heroscape is Basic D&D now.

Good fit then. I had stated previously that that was exactly what was needed.

Quote from: StuartI agree with this completely.  If I end up picking up 4e at some point in the future it would definitely be because of the minis and playing it as a tactical minis game.  

(Note: HeroQuest and HeroScape are different games )

I'm pretty sure I got all the "Heroquests" out of my Heroscape post danm you:haw:

This whole thing reminds me of when we were young and we wanted an rpg component for games like carwars.
Anyway, I think I'm going to use this path to teach my boys RPGs.

QuoteThat's what I was getting at- Heroscape is Basic D&D now.

If that's true, a couple interesting things to note:

Assuming Heroscape/Basic D&D minis and regular D&D minis are roughly the same scale, then buying "basic" boosters would seem to be a better way to round out your collection of figures.  At least so far, with Heroscape you know what you are getting.  With D&D you buy a box and hope for the best.

Unless, the Heroscape rules were greatly tweaked, then the Basic game would have absolutely zero rpg element to it.  As I see it, Heroscape has:

-Collecting
-Drafting/Army Building
-Miniature battles

Nothing even remotely like an rpg.  So if we do really see Beholders and Tieflings that you can use with Sgt. Drake and the gang, it really will signal that the circle is complete- D&D arose out of miniature wargames and will have regressed/evolved (depending on your point of view)-back into a miniature wargame.

I have the starter set for HeroScape.  My pre-schooler likes building up the hills and moving the little men around the board.

Some of the figures are pretty so-so and/or too weird/specific to use with D&D... but the Roman Legion set looks pretty good.

Quote from: walkerp"urge your players"?  Sounds like swinespeak to me.

Okay, so WotC themselves aren't making minis mandatory.  Instead they are asking DM's to make them mandatory.  Having their cake and eating it to.

Dude, those quotes from the 1st edition AD&D DMG. WotC has nothing to do it. That was Gygax.

Seanchai

Quote from: ZulgyanAs quoted, they are totally optional.

And yet throughout D&D's history, the game has encouraged people to use minis and to use official minis. It's not as if WotC is suddenly springing this minis thing on folks.

I'll look at a couple of older TSR books later - I'm pretty sure at least one of them has a quote in it to the effect that minis are required as well.

Seanchai

Was TSR selling minis at that time?

Quote from: KrakaJak...I always have to restock D&D miniatures (and Munchkin games).

Huh. I was wondering about those Munchkin sets. They seemed out of place to me.

Seanchai