So, it's made pretty explicit in the Star Wars Saga rulebook (i.e. right on the message from the developers at the beginning) that Star Wars Saga would not exist if the Star Wars Minis line wasn't so successful. They present the game as a companion ruleset for SW:minis. Now SW:Saga is a very good game in it's own right, but the only reason it survives is as a companion peice to SW: minis.

So, do you think the same has happened to D&D 4e. The RPG is not the focus, but strictly a companion line to the minis game? I haven't read the core rulebooks, but I have played Keep on the Shadowfel. Keep on the Shadowfel felt, quite a lot, like D&D miniatures: campaigns.

So...for those of you who have the corebooks (by luck, hook or crook), does it stand up as its own game? Or does it feel like a companion product (like SW:Saga)to the minis or digital gametable?

Actually Dungeons and Dragons serve as excuse to sell minis...

Quote from: KrakaJakSo...for those of you who have the corebooks (by luck, hook or crook), does it stand up as its own game? Or does it feel like a companion product (like SW:Saga)to the minis or digital gametable?

As much as 3.5e did, although the recommendations/requirements for miniatures are much more powerfully stated in 4e, by my informal comparison. The thing is, you didn't need minis in 3.5e, either! If you've a map, or just a good head for visualization, the minis get replaced by imagination.

But yeah, it looks like Wizards is looking to make the big bucks off minis.

That´s just the RPG.Net 2000isms AM was talking about.

It's a BS theory.

SW: apples and oranges. SW minis aren't just SW minis. They are STAR WARZ TOYZ. That stuff always sells, with or without game attached.

D&D minis are just fantasy minis. Of COURSE WOTC wants to sell them to you, but without D&D the RPG they would be nothing.

Quote from: KrakaJakSo, do you think the same has happened to D&D 4e. The RPG is not the focus, but strictly a companion line to the minis game?

I think WotC is telling us D&D is it's own focus, but they are definitely using it as a tool to get you to buy more minis, and later to sign up for their online subscription content. In the book they tell you that you need minis. It's plain that you could play with coins and scrap paper, or just your imagination, but they specifically state that minis are needed.

Please try and qualify this statement:

Quote from:  PED&D minis are just fantasy minis. Of COURSE WOTC wants to sell them to you, but without D&D the RPG they would be nothing.

However, I've claimed the opposite is true and actually qualified my statement. The Star Wars rpg would not exist without the minis line being so successful. I also think that D&D 3/4 might not even exist without the minis line being so successful.

One problem with this theory:

Unlike STAR WARS, D&D minis is not the only options for DUNGEONS & DRAGONS games.

Locally we have at least 3 game stores where you can REAPER miniatures and even WARHAMMER miniatures. BOTH the Dark Heavens and WARLORD lines of Reaper figures have minis that are usable with D&D.

Heck, the recent LEGENDARY ENCOUNTERS figs from Reaper minis are prepainted, you see exactly what you are getting and are more affordable than the WOTC  pre-painted figs. They just recently released 4 or 5 that are usable as adventurers.

Also, I believe MAEGA-MINIS has a multipack or two that contain a dozen figures per blister pack. The one called "Town Guard" has many that could be used as adventuring characters with a decent quick paint job.

STAR WARS - they have a monopoly on those figures, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS compatible  looking figs they don't.


- Ed C.

Quote from: KrakaJakSo...for those of you who have the corebooks (by luck, hook or crook), does it stand up as its own game? Or does it feel like a companion product (like SW:Saga)to the minis or digital gametable?

It feels like a game that has taken one more significant step towards reliance on physical representation and "gamey" elements.

This means a game that is more friendly to tournaments, RPGA and all that shit.

A game that sells more miniatures.

A game that makes adventure preparation more laborious and thus, will offer more incentive to buy pre-made adventures/modules.

A game that provides more incentive for online play on a subscription model.


In short, I don't think it's a vehicle for the mini game. I think it's a step to make this more profitable, in the way other games (such as miniature games and CCGs) are.

I don't think it's the game I want but I think it's definitly the game a vast majority of the target market wants. This is going to be a very successful edition.

The 4th DMG says that D&D Miniatures are required materials to play the game, while character sheets are recommended.

:rolleyes:

QuoteSTAR WARS - they have a monopoly on those figures, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS compatible  looking figs they don't.

That's true, but do they sell REAPER or even Warhammer figs at Barnes&Noble? How about Wal-Mart?

I wouldn't expect to be seeing Dragonborn or Tiefling figures from anyone but WotC either.

Quote from: KoltarOne problem with this theory:

Unlike STAR WARS, D&D minis is not the only options for DUNGEONS & DRAGONS games.

Locally we have at least 3 game stores where you can REAPER miniatures and even WARHAMMER miniatures. BOTH the Dark Heavens and WARLORD lines of Reaper figures have minis that are usable with D&D.

Heck, the recent LEGENDARY ENCOUNTERS figs from Reaper minis are prepainted, you see exactly what you are getting and are more affordable than the WOTC  pre-painted figs. They just recently released 4 or 5 that are usable as adventurers.

Also, I believe MAEGA-MINIS has a multipack or two that contain a dozen figures per blister pack. The one called "Town Guard" has many that could be used as adventuring characters with a decent quick paint job.

STAR WARS - they have a monopoly on those figures, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS compatible  looking figs they don't.

The only problem with this is that unpainted metal miniatures don't have the same sort of appeal that pre-painted plastic figs do.  Any idiot can quickly assemble a collection of pre-painted plastic figs and be ready to go.  It takes a lot more time and patience to learn how to paint miniatures, and takes a lot longer to collect a sufficient number to use for a broad D&D game.  I've been collecting minis for the last 10 years, and my collection -- almost entirely Reaper, with a lot of Privateer Press, Ral Partha, and Mega thrown in, and a smattering of Warhammer (most of their stuff is too distinctively Watrhammerish, and I don't like Warhammer's house style) and some smaller studios (Hasslefree, Heresy, Paizo, etc.). -- my collection has nowhere near the depth or breadth of my player Shawn's collection, which is all D&D plastic.  He has thousands of minis, I have a few hundred.

Sure, my collection is a lot more impressive in many ways -- I could lay out the entire Village of Homlet with each civilian NPC having his or her own civilian miniature -- but Shawn has a mini for damn near everything in book, and I have to use my paltry collection of orcs to substitute for gnolls, hobgoblins, bugbears, etc.  I just recently bought 9 more goblins, bringing my total to about 17.  Shawn has like 90 goblins, 90 kobolds, etc.  And he can store his figs in coffee cans, while mine near expensive and space consuming padded cases or lots and lots of shelf space (I have like four shelves worth of minis right now, plus four Chessex cases).

I do definitely think that 4E is designed to make the use of miniatures a given, especially with adventures like Shadowfell coming with dozens of maps, and tactical

It really is HeroQuest with more complicated characters.  And HeroQuest requires miniatures.

Quote from: StuartI wouldn't expect to be seeing Dragonborn or Tiefling figures from anyone but WotC either.

Psshaw.  Reaper will release them.  They'll just call them something slightly different, like Dragonfolk and Cambions.  They did the same thing with Mind Flayers ("Bathalions" who look more like the 1E flayer), displacer beasts ("phase cat" with 4 tentacles and 4 legs), and beholders ("eye horror" with eyestalks on the top and bottom).

Quote from: KrakaJakHowever, I've claimed the opposite is true and actually qualified my statement. The Star Wars rpg would not exist without the minis line being so successful.

:confused:

That's almost exactly what I'm saying myself. As far as SW goes.

I'm saying it's not the case for D&D, though. With D&D, it's the RPG that's the brand, and the minis that are the accessory. With SW, it's the movies/the pop culture phenomenon at large that's the brand, and the RPG and the minis and all the other toys that are the accessories.