Quote from: JDCorleyThis is a topic close to my heart, I've done a lot of thinking about it... What you have to look at is the point of view expressed by the game...

An excellent analysis. Bravo.

QuoteWhat's interesting to me, though, is that I have a great time playing games with highly conservative or libertarian points of view, it doesn't bother me in the least.

Me neither. I see such games as abundantly fertile environments for conflict, which I suspect is largely due to the antipathy I hold toward the underlying philosophies that inform them.

That and the escapist fiction, of course. Whilst in real life I find killing things and taking their stuff to be a repellent credo, I do love the bloody slaughter of a good dungeon bash.  

I think it's the case that politics is unavoidable; your politics as a game writer will be present in your work. But the audience doesn't receive your work passively. To control the revolution you need to control every chair in front of every TV, not just the TV station.

Anyway, I think that Glorantha is obviously the work of a hippie. Look at the dwarves: mechanical, soulless creatures leading endless, dull lives underground fulfilling their allotted duties and eating canned food. Compare to the elves: mobile, sapient plants that protect the woods and live in anarchist harmony. Then there's the God Learners, an obvious satire on our scientific, profit-oriented society. At least, that's my reading of it.

Quote from: droogAnyway, I think that Glorantha is obviously the work of a hippie. Look at the dwarves: mechanical, soulless creatures leading endless, dull lives underground fulfilling their allotted duties and eating canned food. Compare to the elves: mobile, sapient plants that protect the woods and live in anarchist harmony. Then there's the God Learners, an obvious satire on our scientific, profit-oriented society. At least, that's my reading of it.

On the other hand, at least Mongoose's iteration of Glorantha lets you work on the side of the God Learners if you want, which is awesome.

IM IN UR MYTHS, KILLIN UR GODS.

Quote from: WarthurIM IN UR MYTHS, KILLIN UR GODS.

That sounds like a hazardous line. What you need is mutual assurance, a little something I invented.

Quote from: JDCorleyAmerica's current political climate is artificially exaggerated, most of the conservatives out there think I should be murdered for supporting the rights of the accused and free expression, so there is not much political debate I engage in these days.    When one side wants, overwhelmingly, to kill you, there is nothing really to debate.

How many real live conservatives have you actually talked to?

Two games probably worth discussing here.

From what I've read, Victoriana purposely sets out to take a Marxist perspective.

Based on comments I've read about Heavy Gear, Terra Nova was designed to reflect the two elements of Canada with the Confederated Northern City-States (CNCS) reflecting more conservative "English" politics that prize economic freedom but restrict social freedom and the Allied Southern Territories (AST) reflecting more liberal "French" politics that prize social freedom but restrict political and economic freedom.

Quote from: John MorrowHow many real live conservatives have you actually talked to?

Plenty, and politeness or perhaps cowardice does not permit them to say I should be murdered to my face, but I hear many many more of them call into radio stations every day in numbers that far outstrip what I could ever hope to talk to personally, and they're very enthusiastic about my murder there.

Now you may say "well, those are uneducated yokels who haven't really thought about what it would mean to put you in some kind of camp" and you may be right, but that's the face of American conservatism today, just by sheer force of numbers. I know a few pleasant conservatives of the how-are-we-going-to-pay-for-your-loopy-ideas variety, but they don't matter anymore, only the screaming boot-on-the-neck ones do.

Quote from: John MorrowTwo games probably worth discussing here.

From what I've read, Victoriana purposely sets out to take a Marxist perspective.

I have the game and I really don't see this in it at all. Like Castle Falkenstein, or any decent Victorian-era game, it pays attention to matters of class, since those matters were on their minds a lot (just read any novel you like), but beyond that I don't see it.

Quote from: JDCorleyPlenty, and politeness or perhaps cowardice does not permit them to say I should be murdered to my face, but I hear many many more of them call into radio stations every day in numbers that far outstrip what I could ever hope to talk to personally, and they're very enthusiastic about my murder there.

Where do you live, and what kind of radio are you listening to? I pretty much spend my day listening to local and national shows, and I've never heard anyone (host or callers) say people should be murdered for their beliefs. The Muslims have that market cornered, currently.

I think at best you're exaggerating horribly.

Quote from: JDCorleyPlenty, and politeness or perhaps cowardice does not permit them to say I should be murdered to my face, but I hear many many more of them call into radio stations every day in numbers that far outstrip what I could ever hope to talk to personally, and they're very enthusiastic about my murder there.

Do you actually listen to conservative talk radio?  I've spent a reasonable amount of time over the years listening to some of the top shows in the United States and I haven't heard this enthusiasm for murder that you are claiming.

Quote from: JDCorleyNow you may say "well, those are uneducated yokels who haven't really thought about what it would mean to put you in some kind of camp" and you may be right, but that's the face of American conservatism today, just by sheer force of numbers. I know a few pleasant conservatives of the how-are-we-going-to-pay-for-your-loopy-ideas variety, but they don't matter anymore, only the screaming boot-on-the-neck ones do.

I've spent time listening to conservative talk radio, reading conservative magazines, watching Fox News, and even reading some of the most conservative message boards on the web.  I don't see this enthusiasm for murder that you are talking about, especially "for supporting the rights of the accused and free expression".  Heck, there isn't even a lot of enthusiasm for the murder of abortionists and they're way higher on conservative hate list than people who coddle the bad guys and support freaky art.

I live in Arizona. Perhaps I am exaggerating. I suppose there are some people like "vermin" and "traitors" and don't want them to die at all. I beg your kind indulgence.

Quote from: JDCorleyI live in Arizona. Perhaps I am exaggerating. I suppose there are some people like "vermin" and "traitors" and don't want them to die at all. I beg your kind indulgence.

Why don't you call up one of those programs and ask them if they want you murdered?  I suspect the enthusiasm that you presume would be lacking.  It might even help tone down the insults being tossed your way.

There is a huge difference between calling people names and actually wanting them murdered.  What I'm looking for is for an example of someone actually calling for murder, like Alec Baldwin ranting, "We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we’d kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families." on Late Night with Conan O'Brien or, when Michael Kelly died in Iraq, a person on Democratic Underground saying, "One down...kill them all for glorifying the war."  And then there was the role-playing author who said, "I'd love to see a well-directed program of assassination, but that would not change the system, merely eliminate some of the worst people involved in it."  You know, an actual call for your murder.

As I said a page back, there is not much to talk about when people think you're a verminous traitor. It is best to remain decorously silent. No discussion can proceed from that initial point. So I do not engage in it.

And so as not to derail the thread further, I return to lurking. Farewell.

Quote from: JDCorleyAs I said a page back, there is not much to talk about when people think you're a verminous traitor. It is best to remain decorously silent. No discussion can proceed from that initial point. So I do not engage in it.

Actually, if you had said that before, your comment probably would have passed without notice.

Quote from: John MorrowThere is a huge difference between calling people names and actually wanting them murdered.  What I'm looking for is for an example of someone actually calling for murder, like Alec Baldwin ranting, "We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we'd kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families." on Late Night with Conan O'Brien or, when Michael Kelly died in Iraq, a person on Democratic Underground saying, "One down...kill them all for glorifying the war."  And then there was the role-playing author who said, "I'd love to see a well-directed program of assassination, but that would not change the system, merely eliminate some of the worst people involved in it."  You know, an actual call for your murder.

I don't follow what celebrities say, but in general people will often say outrageous things that they don't actually mean.  i.e. I doubt that RPGPundit would actually want me to suck his cock the way that he has claimed in the past.  I'm pretty sure that you can get some extremist of any side making some outrageous claim about those who should be killed.