In Playing at the World, section 2.5.2, Draco Horribilis, Jon Peterson goes into some discussion of the use of dragons in fantasy literatures, and how they are tied to the theme of greed, how they are tied to something that is human and greedy within us, giving examples from the Hobbit and The Voyage of the Dawn Treader, where Eustace defeats a dragon, claims its hoard, and by so doing becomes the dragon himself.

He then remarks that "[a]ny such sense of the negative consequences of greed is entirely absent from Dungeons & Dragons."

Now, the topic of this thread is to come up with some ways in which greed could have negative consequences in the game without destroying its premise (i.e. adventuring in dungeon, gaining experience in part through the acquisition of treasure, and the like).

Here are the rules. Your propositions...

(1) Should not modify the baseline or themes of the Dungeons & Dragons game. It's a game about exploration, adventurers go in dungeon and wilderness, acquire treasure and experience. That shouldn't be modified.

(2) Should not devolve into railroads for players or assholish moves on your part. I know this is up to great interpretation, but basically that means that the propositions of consequences for greed in the game shouldn't be fucked up bait-and-switches, getting out of the game's natural development to fuck the players over, and the like. It's up to interpretation. This means your proposition(s) should provide opportunities for more adventure and more player agency over the course of the campaign. Not less.

What would you do to reintroduce the themes of greed and its negative consequences in your D&D game?

I'm all ears.

Quote from: Benoist;579178In Playing at the World, section 2.5.2, Draco Horribilis, Jon Peterson goes into some discussion of the use of dragons in fantasy literatures, and how they are tied to the theme of greed,


What would you do to reintroduce the themes of greed and its negative consequences in your D&D game?

I'm all ears.

I don't think you can if you retain the Xp model. the Gold gathered = xp paradigm is one that was quickly eroded in later RPGs to become Monsters defeated or goals obtained = XP.

Pundit suggested in a post a couple of years back that only gold spent garnered you XP so encourging both the desire to adventure, to get more gold to spend and trying to mimic the pulps in that no matter how much gold conan, the Grey Mouser et al find they are always broke....
This seems to defeat the hoarding of gold but of course does nothing to sait the desire to acquire it.

Personally I found the guilt-free greed in D&D quite liberating. That's not to say it would apply in other circumstances, only an insect would take the one situation and use it as an indicator of one's personal values.

Anyway, yes, monsters have relatives. Why don't people steal from the Mafia, since they aren't likely to call the police? Because "bad clams" Tony and the after midnight crew will pay you a visit. Except in this case its the dragon's seventy three ton armour plated aerial mate firebombing your entire city while you're off at the beach. And this one you won't catch napping. Lets hope the families of the bereaved aren't too insistent in their demands for compensation from the hoard...

Quote from: jibbajibba;579182I don't think you can if you retain the Xp model.

Yes, that's kind of the conundrum of the thread. The premise here is that you retain the XP model. 1 XP = 1 GP. Gaining wealth IS and should remain a factor of motivation for player characters. Now that means you'd have to have something of a balancing act, that plays both on the premise of the game AND also includes some negative consequences to greed which would enhance BOTH at the game table somehow.

Is that even possible? And if it is, how would you do it? That's basically the question of the OP.

Already a bit OT, but what are players going to do with a Dragon Hoard?  In D&D, the Dragon Hoard is one of the best ways to fund a castle, temple, tower, etc.  In other words, the death of the dragon and the placing of the wealth into "normal" society fits in perfectly with the source material.  

The Hobbit is basically a retelling of Beowulf.  In Beowulf the dragon as a symbol of unreasoning greed is the antithesis of Norse society where generosity is a virtue and one of the main social ties.  Don't want to derail this too much with getting into the literary analysis of Beowulf or Tolkien, but if the character's are spending the money and making their realms better, it's "working as intended", they've returned a measure of balance to the world.

Now what if they don't?  What if they hoard, become obsessed with cataloging every last gold piece and the only thing they buy with the hoard is defenses for the rest of it?  Well, in the campaign world, they, in essence become the new Dragon, and others will come looking for them, theft attempts, wars, etc.

The only thing worse then not getting a Dragon's Hoard, is getting a Dragon's Hoard.

Quote from: Benoist;579185Yes, that's kind of the conundrum of the thread. The premise here is that you retain the XP model. 1 XP = 1 GP. Gaining wealth IS and should remain a factor of motivation for player characters. Now that means you'd have to have something of a balancing act, that plays both on the premise of the game AND also includes some negative consequences to greed which would enhance BOTH at the game table somehow.

Is that even possible? And if it is, how would you do it? That's basically the question of the OP.

I know

I am basically saying you can't. The only way is to change how you gather XP.
You can prevent its hoarding after all training in 1e is really just a gold sink to prevent PCs hanging up their sword and shields and living the good life. There are numerous other methodolgies.

Why do you want to keep the 1gp = 1xp ?
Why is that better than the myriad of other xp paradigms that exist?

Quote from: CRKrueger;579187The Hobbit is basically a retelling of Beowulf.  In Beowulf the dragon as a symbol of unreasoning greed is the antithesis of Norse society where generosity is a virtue and one of the main social ties.  Don't want to derail this too much with getting into the literary analysis of Beowulf or Tolkien, but if the character's are spending the money and making their realms better, it's "working as intended", they've returned a measure of balance to the world.

That's a good point. What if the consequences of greed were derived from what you do with your wealth, or the manner or motivations, the purpose for which you get the treasure in the first place and then what you DO with it, rather than whether or not you acquire it in the first place?

Quote from: CRKrueger;579187Already a bit OT, but what are players going to do with a Dragon Hoard?  In D&D, the Dragon Hoard is one of the best ways to fund a castle, temple, tower, etc.  In other words, the death of the dragon and the placing of the wealth into "normal" society fits in perfectly with the source material.  

The Hobbit is basically a retelling of Beowulf.  In Beowulf the dragon as a symbol of unreasoning greed is the antithesis of Norse society where generosity is a virtue and one of the main social ties.  Don't want to derail this too much with getting into the literary analysis of Beowulf or Tolkien, but if the character's are spending the money and making their realms better, it's "working as intended", they've returned a measure of balance to the world.

Now what if they don't?  What if they hoard, become obsessed with cataloging every last gold piece and the only thing they buy with the hoard is defenses for the rest of it?  Well, in the campaign world, they, in essence become the new Dragon, and others will come looking for them, theft attempts, wars, etc.

The only thing worse then not getting a Dragon's Hoard, is getting a Dragon's Hoard.

But in D&D obtaining the hoarde and getting it home is what you get XP for after that you can give it away, piss it away or melt it down to make statues of yourself to line the roads from Kingsport to the Waterdeep. Training notwithstanding of course.

Quote from: jibbajibba;579189Why do you want to keep the 1gp = 1xp ?
Why is that better than the myriad of other xp paradigms that exist?

Because it's D&D to me. The subject of this thread is emphatically not to modify the baseline of the D&D game or create a different game and so on. It's to work with the game as it is and come up with something that works with the framework already in place.

To be crystal clear, I don't want this to devolve into a debate about this existing rules, how they function in the original game and whatnot. That's not the topic. The topic is to work with this framework. If you basically can't do it, or don't think it's possible to achieve, that's a good answer to me. Just don't turn this into a edition debate and the like. That won't do.

At the level of the indivudual character or campaign there are always ways to spin it. Indiana Jones is the ultimate treasure hunter, but he's not motivated by greed.

But if you want to retain the generic, broad umbrella premise of plundering dungeons as a goal in itself I don't think you can square the circle. The willingness to kill or be killed in search of fabulous riches is a pretty extreme form of greed.

Quote from: Benoist;579185Yes, that's kind of the conundrum of the thread. The premise here is that you retain the XP model. 1 XP = 1 GP. Gaining wealth IS and should remain a factor of motivation for player characters. Now that means you'd have to have something of a balancing act, that plays both on the premise of the game AND also includes some negative consequences to greed which would enhance BOTH at the game table somehow.

Is that even possible? And if it is, how would you do it? That's basically the question of the OP.

You could build sins and virtues into a campaign, wherein morality is expressed in the land itself. Characters can undergo quests, have virtue/sin based encounters and then have some mystical consequence. For example, you could have monsters and encounters spawned each time someone increases in level, and that acting is a sort of test.

I haven't read the original article, but there is a very good, old literary dragon story that's worth considering - Beowulf. There, the dragon was an "anti-king" or anti-Beowulf. Whereas Beowulf demonstrated virtues, the dragon was the antithesis of them.

A good king cares and lives for his people, is a "giver of rings" to his comitatus, does not act with impulsive violence and the like. But earthly kingdoms are not perfect - even the act of a lowly servant or slave can set chaos into motion.

Quote from: CRKrueger;579187Now what if they don't?  What if they hoard, become obsessed with cataloging every last gold piece and the only thing they buy with the hoard is defenses for the rest of it?  Well, in the campaign world, they, in essence become the new Dragon, and others will come looking for them, theft attempts, wars, etc.

The only thing worse then not getting a Dragon's Hoard, is getting a Dragon's Hoard.

Hm. Food for thought too.

You could always do a Pirates of the Carribbean thing, the more evil the monster the more tainted the treasure, stained with the blood of its victims.

Quote from: Lynn;579197You could build sins and virtues into a campaign, wherein morality is expressed in the land itself. Characters can undergo quests, have virtue/sin based encounters and then have some mystical consequence. For example, you could have monsters and encounters spawned each time someone increases in level, and that acting is a sort of test.

I haven't read the original article, but there is a very good, old literary dragon story that's worth considering - Beowulf. There, the dragon was an "anti-king" or anti-Beowulf. Whereas Beowulf demonstrated virtues, the dragon was the antithesis of them.

A good king cares and lives for his people, is a "giver of rings" to his comitatus, does not act with impulsive violence and the like. But earthly kingdoms are not perfect - even the act of a lowly servant or slave can set chaos into motion.

Yes. *nod* I'm following you on that. So you could have some kinds of tests of virtue throughout the campaign, as well as natural consequences of the use of wealth after it's acquired, whether you are a good lord of men and give back to the land, or become the dragon yourself, in fact.

Quote from: The Traveller;579200You could always do a Pirates of the Carribbean thing, the more evil the monster the more tainted the treasure, stained with the blood of its victims.

So some kind of magic item thing? Like the hoarder's soul and psyche somehow taint their treasures and pass on to their next owners in some way, shape or form?