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I had been predicting this for quite some time, and now there's proof!
#dnd5e #dnd #osr #ttrpg

 :o  Did... did you just tell us you knew that WOTC was suffering flagging sales of 5e books because you used magic?

Pundit right now:



;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: BadApple on August 11, 2023, 11:40:58 AM
:o  Did... did you just tell us you knew that WOTC was suffering flagging sales of 5e books because you used magic?

You didn't know he's a real believer in ocultism? Not satanism some other thing.

Used Copies of the D&D 5E Hardcover Books, exist in great abundance; so there is No Need for anyone to buy the new "wokified" copies of their books.  When they removed the names of creators from their books, to appease the woke mob; they betrayed their creators.  It only got worse, from there on.

They have announced that new improved D&D, is coming soon.  It may be new, but I seriously doubt it will be improved.

They sharted their britches, with the OGL boondoggle.  They created a lot of gaming enemies, who will never purchase a single product or service from them again.  They made their bed, and now they will have to sleep in it.

WOTC doesn't care about us.  They never truly did.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2023, 12:44:10 PM

Quote from: BadApple on August 11, 2023, 11:40:58 AM
:o  Did... did you just tell us you knew that WOTC was suffering flagging sales of 5e books because you used magic?

You didn't know he's a real believer in ocultism? Not satanism some other thing.

Everyone I know, believes in something.  The real question is; does The RPG Pundit produce good RPG content, that is usable?  I say yes.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 11, 2023, 12:44:10 PM

Quote from: BadApple on August 11, 2023, 11:40:58 AM
:o  Did... did you just tell us you knew that WOTC was suffering flagging sales of 5e books because you used magic?

You didn't know he's a real believer in ocultism? Not satanism some other thing.

He does?  CALL FOR A PRIEST!  WE NEED AN EXORCISM!  (jk)

Honestly, I'm more weirded out by the idea of using magic to ascertain sales records.  I suppose if you're going to invest in a put against WOTC it might be valuable...

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 11, 2023, 02:00:26 PM


WOTC doesn't care about us.  They never truly did.

A bit louder for the boys in the back, please. Because, QFT.

I'm on my cigarrette boat, margarita in hand, watching the Titanic go down.

I'm about to get my bazooka out to hit those lifeboats. But I've got time. I'm enjoying the show.

Quote from: tenbones on August 11, 2023, 03:22:32 PM
I'm on my cigarrette boat, margarita in hand, watching the Titanic go down.

I'm about to get my bazooka out to hit those lifeboats. But I've got time. I'm enjoying the show.

Oh gawds this was funny. Thanks for the laugh tenbones.

As I watched the video, thinking about the WotC execs. I feel, they truly do not grasp, at a fundamental level, what around the table role playing games are. I feel they are literally trying to shove D&D into this "virtual" box that was never meant to fit D&D.

So yeah. I'll happily watch the titantic sink. I've moved on from WotC and I'm okay and having fun.

Funny thing is I (and others in my same boat) probably have more disposable income than the audience that WotC is trying to court.

The actual GAME D&D died with 2nd Edition.  Nothing produced by WotC has been anything but, "in name only".

Given the massive success of Baldur's Gate 3, I doubt D&D will ever die out as a brand in any of our live times, and WotKKK isn't going away any time soon either.

D&D books, however, might be about to get phased away. Specially since WotKKK is hellbent on digitalizing everything. And with BG3's success they'll just take it as a signal that D&D needs to be turned into a video game more than ever.

Quote from: Scooter on August 11, 2023, 06:50:36 PM
The actual GAME D&D died with 2nd Edition.  Nothing produced by WotC has been anything but, "in name only".

That is a pretty harsh assessment. I was one of those who despised 2e when it came out, but I have since come to see at as being too much D&D.

What I mean is D&D has always been a game where individual groups modified and made up their own rules to augment the official rules. What 2nd edition did, instead of the designers really hammering out the best possible game they could just made every possible variant rule available. So there was not longer an official D&D, but thousands of D&D's where each group continued to do what they do: make up their own rules. But now instead of being based on one set of rules these group's modifications were based on multiple variants.

Eventually no one played D&D even remotely similarly. You couldn't easily hop from one game to the next.

But even then it was still D&D. What is happening now with wokeness is they are stripping everything interesting from the game and it is all one politically correct gray soup, variations are only surface now. An elf cannot be different from a dwarf because species racism or something. They've lost their minds.

2e was the greatest of the old, pre-WotC D&D editions. And 3e failed only in terms of bloat and balance, but it still remained close enough (but "modernized") to D&D in my book. 4e and 5e deviated too much from the original rules to truly be D&D in anything but name. Though, I still prefer 5e at this point. Probably, cuz it's simple enough to not get in the way, good enough to get plenty of stuff accomplished, and I haven't played it enough to get sick of its flaws.

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 11, 2023, 02:00:26 PM
WOTC doesn't care about us.  They never truly did.

Corporations only care about their quarterly profits.  They don't care about the bandwagon they care about the sales.  They do care about people as people buy product but they don't care about individuals unless they have some cachet or influence.

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 11, 2023, 02:09:18 PMEveryone I know, believes in something.

I mean, yeah, unless you know people that are in an asylum, gibbering in a corner, then everyone 'believes' certain things. But it's so generic a statement as to mean nothing.

Yes I believe in the scientific method. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, that if I jump from a building, gravity will pancake me in to the ground. So by that standard, yes, everyone 'believes in something.'

Or are you saying that your particular extended family and friend group is full of believers in unproveable supernatural powers?

Someone can believe that God made something happen, or that magical powers revealed a hidden truth, and that's fine, freedom of religion and all that. But expecting others to believe is the evidentiary equivalent of "trust me, Bro."

Reminds me of the Heinlein quote:


WotC is currently experiencing "bad luck." They'll come up with all kinds of excuses for why, but they'll likely never hit upon the truth. They're too blinded by woke ideology. And while I can't say for sure why other people have stopped playing D&D, I know why I did, and it had nothing to do with the economy, 6E, or anything else WotC's know-nothing, DEI-fearing corporate stooges are likely to suggest. It was politics. I simply will not support an evil company that hates me for my race and sex.

Quote from: Horace on August 11, 2023, 11:00:11 PMI simply will not support an evil company that hates me for my race and sex.

Come now, WOTC are virtuous and inclusive, they love everyone.

Whether you're Female, Bigoted, or Intersex. Black, Brown or Evil. Everyone is welcome!

Quote from: Thor's Nads on August 11, 2023, 08:29:51 PM

Quote from: Scooter on August 11, 2023, 06:50:36 PM
The actual GAME D&D died with 2nd Edition.  Nothing produced by WotC has been anything but, "in name only".

That is a pretty harsh assessment.

Not really.  3.x doesn't have the feel and flavor (forget mechanics) of the earlier games.  MUCH more crunch oriented.  Tried to equalize class power (which is beyond stupid as a goal). Moving towards builds rather than role playing. Accurate, not harsh at all.

Quote from: Scooter on August 11, 2023, 11:33:53 PM
Tried to equalize class power (which is beyond stupid as a goal).

Hard disagree. I won't get in to a 76 page "nu uh!/yu huh!" war about it, you think it's dumb, I applaud it. You think that makes me wrong, I think you're wrong.

So this post just exists to mark that your personal opinion on game design, and how games 'should be' is subjective, not objective.

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 11, 2023, 11:49:33 PM

So this post just exists to mark that your personal opinion on game design, and how games 'should be' is subjective, not objective.

What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????  OMFG I didn't know that.   ::)

Thanks Captain obvious.  Also, the sun is hot, the moon orbiting the Earth, et al.

Quote from: Scooter on August 12, 2023, 12:13:17 AM
What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????  OMFG I didn't know that.   ::)

Thanks Captain obvious.  Also, the sun is hot, the moon orbiting the Earth, et al.

Well since you show a tendency for expressing personal opinions as facts, I thought it was worth a mention. See, you even picked up some astronomical knowledge as a bonus.

And at no extra charge!

At 10:30ish you mention that "Strixhaven went up (in sales) for the same reason Spelljammer went up" or something similar.  You then attribute that to it being an established setting with fans.

I will offer an alternate or additional explanation:  Strixhaven has an *unusual amount of crunch* in it.  There's some things that that make it sound like the spells and other details are meant for restriction to the setting (there's even a feat or background or something that has, as a perk, access to some of the spells, probably originally written for players in other campaigns).  But, in the final product, there's no such restriction.  While I don't think it's legal in their adventure's league (most campaign type things are not), it's generally considered part of the "smooth everything together and assume it's all legal" set of things.

The most notorious spell here is Silvery Barbs, a 1st level spell that uses a reaction.  Like Shield and Counterspell, this then is a tool for serious time-economy.  Unlike those two, it's really good, with the main effect of forcing them to "reroll and use the lower roll".  This is distinct from disadvantage, so if the target had advantage, rolled twice and got a good roll from the highest and you used this, he'll be rolling a d20 and using the lower one- turning the end result into not much better than disadvantage, statistically.  And of course, your whole team can do this stunt.  So you throw a spell at them that they *really* want to pass, they pass it, and you (and possibly another caster on your team) begin throwing this at them, and if at any point they fail, that's it- they failed, or they burn a legendary resistance.  It also buffs allies at the same time. 

There are cool spells in there too, and other player options.  But when something contains really powerful player options, or even just one, it's gonna drive sales... or at least that's my take.

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 11, 2023, 10:45:08 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 11, 2023, 02:09:18 PMEveryone I know, believes in something.

I mean, yeah, unless you know people that are in an asylum, gibbering in a corner, then everyone 'believes' certain things. But it's so generic a statement as to mean nothing.

Yes I believe in the scientific method. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow, that if I jump from a building, gravity will pancake me in to the ground. So by that standard, yes, everyone 'believes in something.'

Or are you saying that your particular extended family and friend group is full of believers in unproveable supernatural powers?

Someone can believe that God made something happen, or that magical powers revealed a hidden truth, and that's fine, freedom of religion and all that. But expecting others to believe is the evidentiary equivalent of "trust me, Bro."

Scientists say, that the Bumblebee is too heavy to fly; but it flies anyway.

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 12, 2023, 01:37:55 AM
Scientists say, that the Bumblebee is too heavy to fly; but it flies anyway.

Scientists have had an explanation for a decent amount of time about how bumblebees fly.  There were many decades when they did not, however.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.0506590102

Quote from: Jam The MF on August 12, 2023, 01:37:55 AM
Scientists say, that the Bumblebee is too heavy to fly; but it flies anyway.

Scientists don't say that... morons who have never studied bumblebee flight say that.

Short answer: unlike birds, who only generate lift on the downstroke, bees generate lift on both the downstroke and "upstroke" (in quotes because it's actually another downstroke).

Quote from: Scooter on August 11, 2023, 11:33:53 PM3.x [...] Tried to equalize class power (which is beyond stupid as a goal). [...] Accurate, not harsh at all.

(https://i.imgflip.com/z761q.jpg)

Also, NO edition of D&D has particularly supported "role-playing". That has always been up to the play group, which is technically true of every TTRPG. Except that D&D has always bound you to class like a straitjacket with limited customizability, which limits the range of expression that characters have available in terms of what they can accomplish in life in ways that are unrealistic and restrict the range of roles you can potentially play.

Look on the bright side. WotC losing their obscene market dominance is an opportunity for every other producer of ttrpgs to gain new customers! So long as no other single game rises to replace them.

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 12, 2023, 12:47:26 AM

Quote from: Scooter on August 12, 2023, 12:13:17 AM
What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????  OMFG I didn't know that.   ::)

Thanks Captain obvious.  Also, the sun is hot, the moon orbiting the Earth, et al.

Well since you show a tendency for expressing personal opinions as facts,

That is your SUBJECTIVE opinion.  Not fact. Petard hoist away.

Quote from: Scooter on August 12, 2023, 10:13:18 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 12, 2023, 12:47:26 AM

Quote from: Scooter on August 12, 2023, 12:13:17 AM
What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????  OMFG I didn't know that.   ::)

Thanks Captain obvious.  Also, the sun is hot, the moon orbiting the Earth, et al.

Well since you show a tendency for expressing personal opinions as facts,

That is your SUBJECTIVE opinion.  Not fact. Petard hoist away.

I'd take the time to explain how observable facts aren't actually subjective, but I know you're still busy learning about bumblebees.

Quote from: VisionStorm on August 12, 2023, 06:10:53 AMAlso, NO edition of D&D has particularly supported "role-playing". That has always been up to the play group, which is technically true of every TTRPG. Except that D&D has always bound you to class like a straitjacket with limited customizability, which limits the range of expression that characters have available in terms of what they can accomplish in life in ways that are unrealistic and restrict the range of roles you can potentially play.

Exactly.

This strange idea that some people have, that being able to have bespoke characters somehow limits roleplaying, is beyond bizarre. When my character can mechanically do all the things I conceptually see him being good at, it encourages roleplaying.

Maybe its down to differences in creativity? I've known many players that REALLY struggle to create characters from whole cloth, and build the character mentally as the stats and skills are rolled up. But that's ass-backwards for me personally, as I usually have an army of unborn characters lurking in my skull.

6e going woketard, AI and digital is only a boon for the RPG hobby.

Unfortunately, Kickstarter's wokeness means woketardia will continue to be financially rewarded for smaller companies who keep sucking the tranny dick. Gamefound has been growing, but I rarely see any RPG stuff there and I wonder if that platform will go woketard too.

Same reason we need to support Big Geek Emporium over DriveThru.

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 12, 2023, 10:44:17 AM
This strange idea that some people have, that being able to have bespoke characters somehow limits roleplaying, is beyond bizarre. When my character can mechanically do all the things I conceptually see him being good at, it encourages roleplaying.

Maybe its down to differences in creativity? I've known many players that REALLY struggle to create characters from whole cloth, and build the character mentally as the stats and skills are rolled up. But that's ass-backwards for me personally, as I usually have an army of unborn characters lurking in my skull.

It's difficult to "create" anything from a blank sheet of paper. Decision paralysis sets in. When you can make anything, most people end up making nothing. This is why class-based systems are as popular as they are. There are fewer decisions to make, and so the brain is more comfortable.

Hell, the initial idea seeds don't even have to be used. Put a pregenerated wizard in front of someone and watch them make a whole character based around, "No, I don't want to be a wizard." The player had no idea what they wanted to play, and suddenly they've decided they want a bigass sword and the rest of the character comes tumbling out.

Quote from: Corolinth on August 12, 2023, 08:44:38 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 12, 2023, 10:44:17 AM
This strange idea that some people have, that being able to have bespoke characters somehow limits roleplaying, is beyond bizarre. When my character can mechanically do all the things I conceptually see him being good at, it encourages roleplaying.

Maybe its down to differences in creativity? I've known many players that REALLY struggle to create characters from whole cloth, and build the character mentally as the stats and skills are rolled up. But that's ass-backwards for me personally, as I usually have an army of unborn characters lurking in my skull.

It's difficult to "create" anything from a blank sheet of paper. Decision paralysis sets in. When you can make anything, most people end up making nothing. This is why class-based systems are as popular as they are. There are fewer decisions to make, and so the brain is more comfortable.

Hell, the initial idea seeds don't even have to be used. Put a pregenerated wizard in front of someone and watch them make a whole character based around, "No, I don't want to be a wizard." The player had no idea what they wanted to play, and suddenly they've decided they want a bigass sword and the rest of the character comes tumbling out.

Which is why I'm cool with statements like "I prefer random char gen, because my players have difficulty creating characters from nothing," or "I don't personally like DM'ing when there are too many player options." Both perfectly fine stances.

What is nonsense, however, are the people that insist player choice, and char gen control, somehow hurts roleplaying. Strong disagree, to the extent of having the mirror opposite view.

There are a lot of potential issues with giving a bunch of points or options to players and making them build a character from scratch unaided, but getting in the way of roleplaying ain't one of them. And limiting player options doesn't emphasize roleplaying either.

Earlier editions of D&D didn't focus more on roleplaying than 3e, just because 3e potentially let you min/max. They just had less options or ways to distinguish Fighter A from Fighter B, other than stat rolls.

WOTC, like many other companies that go woke, are caught between a rock and a hard place. In a free market, sales would be their only concern but we are not living in a free market world anymore. Large investment companies such as JP Morgan and Blackrock have imposed social credit score criteria that must be met else they will sink the company. So the company has no choice but to obey their masters. In order for D&D to ever be good again it must belong to a non-publicly traded private company. Once a company goes public they must bow to their masters. Private companies can tell wokism to pound sand. This is the reality we live in. All large public corporations must bow and become woke. When political agendas become more important than profit this is the result.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 13, 2023, 04:50:38 PM
WOTC, like many other companies that go woke, are caught between a rock and a hard place. In a free market, sales would be their only concern but we are not living in a free market world anymore. Large investment companies such as JP Morgan and Blackrock have imposed social credit score criteria that must be met else they will sink the company.

Completely wrong.  Only weak companies that cannot produce revenue without outside funding are in that position.  I consult large and small start up companies.  Here is the REAL data.  If you are a start up that requires capital investment because you don't know how to boot strap you might have to remain silent. But, probably you are too small to get on anyone's woke radar.  The VAST majority of consumers hate the woke crap, see Bud Light, Target, et al and they were too stupid to do basic market research.  THEY have fallen to the free market forces and are going down fast.  It is a free market.  Some have been hoodwinked by the woke media to think otherwise. 

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 13, 2023, 04:50:38 PM
WOTC, like many other companies that go woke, are caught between a rock and a hard place. In a free market, sales would be their only concern but we are not living in a free market world anymore. Large investment companies such as JP Morgan and Blackrock have imposed social credit score criteria that must be met else they will sink the company. So the company has no choice but to obey their masters. In order for D&D to ever be good again it must belong to a non-publicly traded private company. Once a company goes public they must bow to their masters. Private companies can tell wokism to pound sand. This is the reality we live in. All large public corporations must bow and become woke. When political agendas become more important than profit this is the result.

Even private Twitter/X has had to bow to the woke under Musk, due to the EU and the power that EU mandated censorship has gotten over social media. Granted, that's only an exception, given how far government tentacles have gotten into social media control, even in the US. But other private companies are not as easily affected. We're living in interesting times in every meaning of the expression.

Quote from: Scooter on August 13, 2023, 05:01:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 13, 2023, 04:50:38 PM
WOTC, like many other companies that go woke, are caught between a rock and a hard place. In a free market, sales would be their only concern but we are not living in a free market world anymore. Large investment companies such as JP Morgan and Blackrock have imposed social credit score criteria that must be met else they will sink the company.

Completely wrong.  Only weak companies that cannot produce revenue without outside funding are in that position.  I consult large and small start up companies.  Here is the REAL data.  If you are a start up that requires capital investment because you don't know how to boot strap you might have to remain silent. But, probably you are too small to get on anyone's woke radar.  The VAST majority of consumers hate the woke crap, see Bud Light, Target, et al and they were too stupid to do basic market research.  THEY have fallen to the free market forces and are going down fast.  It is a free market.  Some have been hoodwinked by the woke media to think otherwise.

The problem here is that you're using the logic of sustainable capitalism, the capitalism of Henry Ford. Make a good product, pay the staff enough that they can purchase the product, have a nice long-term revenue stream.

Unfortunately, since the 80's, corporations have only followed unsustainable capitalism. Only short term gains matters, buy out a company that can make 50 mil a year forever, strip and shut it down for 500 mil instant profit. If your earnings don't rise every quarter, then your business is dying, do anything to keep investment flowing, even if you see the cliff in the distance.

Quote from: Scooter on August 13, 2023, 05:01:34 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 13, 2023, 04:50:38 PM
WOTC, like many other companies that go woke, are caught between a rock and a hard place. In a free market, sales would be their only concern but we are not living in a free market world anymore. Large investment companies such as JP Morgan and Blackrock have imposed social credit score criteria that must be met else they will sink the company.

Completely wrong.  Only weak companies that cannot produce revenue without outside funding are in that position.  I consult large and small start up companies.  Here is the REAL data.  If you are a start up that requires capital investment because you don't know how to boot strap you might have to remain silent. But, probably you are too small to get on anyone's woke radar.  The VAST majority of consumers hate the woke crap, see Bud Light, Target, et al and they were too stupid to do basic market research.  THEY have fallen to the free market forces and are going down fast.  It is a free market.  Some have been hoodwinked by the woke media to think otherwise.

It wasn't the media that caused Bud to do that terrible ad campaign. They had to up their social credit score with the overlords or they would get tanked. So their choice was financial suicide either way. When you are publicly owned you are just plain owned.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 13, 2023, 09:51:57 PM

It wasn't the media that caused Bud to do that terrible ad campaign. They had to up their social credit score with the overlords or they would get tanked. S

Wrong again.  There is NOTHING that anyone could do to Bud.  Their market wasn't woke idiots so no damage to their bottom line could happen to them from your mythical  "overlords" because of "social credit score". 

Quote from: Scooter on August 13, 2023, 10:05:22 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 13, 2023, 09:51:57 PM

It wasn't the media that caused Bud to do that terrible ad campaign. They had to up their social credit score with the overlords or they would get tanked. S

Wrong again.  There is NOTHING that anyone could do to Bud.  Their market wasn't woke idiots so no damage to their bottom line could happen to them from your mythical  "overlords" because of "social credit score".

When ESG scores are bieng used to establish the value of your stock I'm afraid you're wrong, there's a lot that those who hold a significant ammount of stock of your corporation could do to hurt your bottom dollar.

Hiring DIE idiots doesn't help because those idiots will push for the results that blackrock wants to see.

When media and social networks are controlled by woke idiots who censor anyone to the right of Mao it gives you the false impression that most people agree with the woke idiots you hired under pressure else you're labelled an istophobe.

It also doesn't help when those on the top positions of WotKKK are part of the cult.

Blackrok's money serves to disguise the economic hurt for a while, but that money is getting thin, so we're starting to see the world of hurt many of these corporations really are.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 13, 2023, 10:22:51 PM


When ESG scores are bieng used to establish the value of your stock I'm afraid you're wrong,

WRONG. They aren't.  Bud was the top brand with huge profits. Its stock price being set by The Market demand for its stock NOT "scores".  You are fucking clueless about business and the stock market.  You don't even have basic IQ.  If those scores caused its stock price then doing woke ads would cause the stock price to rise not CRASH by $58 a share like it has.  See Wizard about brain.

Quote from: Scooter on August 13, 2023, 10:25:58 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 13, 2023, 10:22:51 PM


When ESG scores are bieng used to establish the value of your stock I'm afraid you're wrong,

WRONG. They aren't.  Bud was the top brand with huge profits. Its stock price being set by The Market demand for its stock NOT "scores".  You are fucking clueless about business and the stock market.  You don't even have basic IQ.  If those scores caused its stock price then doing woke ads would cause the stock price to rise not CRASH by $58 a share like it has.  See Wizard about brain.

Who lacks IQ?

If YOU want to discuss the downfall of Bud, Target, etc create a thread on Pundit's forum.

This forum is for gaming related stuff, RPG to be exact, I'm talking (as it would be clear to ANYONE with two braincells to rub together to form a synapse) about WotKKK, that IS inside the forum's wheelhouse and IS the theme of the thread.

Hasbro (WotKKK's parent company) has been hurting for a while, with WotKKK's sales being most of it's income (you can argue all you want if it's a small corporation or not), IMHO it's been hurting due to embracing wokeism, but that's a different topic (toys), since the parent company IS infected by DIE idiots (what came first? the chicken or the egg is also a different topic) it stands to reason that WotKKK would ALSO get infected.

We all saw the media, social networks, etc (can you claim none of those are doing Blackrock's biding?) pressure and we all saw WotKKK cave in real time, so there's no question as if they did.

Now let's tie it all together:

Hasbro is hurting (It might need money in the form of investment or borrowing from banks [who also look at your ESG score])

It's subsidiary WotKK IS making money

WotKKK is pressured from inside and outside to embrace the woke cult

WotKKK's sales are significantly down, especially of the more woke products

Now, some have argued that we have it backwards, that it's Go Broke Get Woke and not the other way around. Could be, at the end of the day it doesn't mater because the end result is the same, when Blackrock's money well dries out the corporation ends up broke (or it becomes obvious that it was?).

Quote from: Scooter on August 11, 2023, 06:50:36 PM
The actual GAME D&D died with 2nd Edition.  Nothing produced by WotC has been anything but, "in name only".

eh. Much as I am not a fan of 3e at all. This was a rare moment when wotc actually listened to Gygax's advice and surprisingly 5e carries over alot of the wording near verbatim from AD&D and 2e and makes fewer huge changes overall than 4 and 5e to the mechanics. The biggest change being to classes and how they work.

Unfortunately that did not last long because wotc is NEVER satisfied with success and somehow someway they have to fuck it up. And did.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 13, 2023, 11:28:34 PM
Who lacks IQ?

I wrote clearly and at 4th grade level who it is.  Anyone with an IQ >50 would know who was being referenced... Hmmm

Pundit's Claim: Ever since Mearls and Ray Winninger stopped working on D&D, D&D has slowly lost customers. He then specifically highlights declining ADVENTURE sales.

Truth: Adventures, as Pundit rightly points out but then ignores, sell a fraction of the rules crunch books. They're aimed at DMs rather than all customers, and the more adventures you have the less you tend to buy over time because you don't have time to finish what you've already bought and tend to play in just one setting. Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, a crunch rules book which came out well after both left, is the second best selling D&D product after the Player's Handbook itself.

Record overall D&D sales happened well after Ray and Mike left. This has been verified repeatedly using Amazon sales data, and again during Hasbro shareholder meetings which are covered as Forward Looking Statements and therefore actionable if they were lying or misleading. Most of those sales, as always, happened with crunch rules book regardless of what Pundit discussed with Mike prior to 5e coming out.

Likely explanation: Adventure sales decline over time due to quantity, particularly as you approach a new edition of the game which, no matter what WOTC says, will at least possibly have compatibility issues with the adventures. Crunch rules sell, always have sold, and continue to be the overwhelming bulk of sales regardless of edition or politics.

Proof will be in the 2024 crunch rulebooks, which will have Species instead of Race, and orcs will no longer be inherently evil. If it's politics, those crunch rulebooks will sell poorly right? If instead it's an issue tied to adventures in general, we will see the new crunch rule books (which have some left leaning tendencies built in) sell very well.

One thing we do know for sure? D&D is not going broke yet (sales at record highs), and pretending adventure sales alone is proof of D&D going broke is spin for clicks.

Quote from: Mistwell on August 14, 2023, 06:03:40 PMProof will be in the 2024 crunch rulebooks, which will have Species instead of Race, and orcs will no longer be inherently evil. If it's politics, those crunch rulebooks will sell poorly right? If instead it's an issue tied to adventures in general, we will see the new crunch rule books (which have some left leaning tendencies built in) sell very well.

I'm sure they'll sell well, because, much like the shambling corpse of the Simpsons, there's a large group of people with brand loyalty, that'll eat up any shit put out. A good few of them just put the books on a shelf anyway, next to the Funkopops.

The test is:
How long before sales drop off?
How many people play the thing for any length of time?
And (most importantly) how does 7th ed sell?

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 14, 2023, 07:18:02 PM


I'm sure they'll sell well...

How quickly they backtrack and move the goalpost.

Quote from: Mistwell on August 14, 2023, 11:30:09 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 14, 2023, 07:18:02 PM


I'm sure they'll sell well...

How quickly they backtrack and move the goalpost.

Who is 'they?' Are they in the room with us now?

I swear, you fucking Marxists and arbitrarily assigning individuals to monolithic groups.

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 15, 2023, 12:24:27 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 14, 2023, 11:30:09 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 14, 2023, 07:18:02 PM


I'm sure they'll sell well...

How quickly they backtrack and move the goalpost.

Who is 'they?' Are they in the room with us now?

I swear, you fucking Marxists and arbitrarily assigning individuals to monolithic groups.

LOL it's hilarious you'd call me a marxist. Truly hilarious.

Quote from: Mistwell on August 15, 2023, 12:35:52 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 15, 2023, 12:24:27 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on August 14, 2023, 11:30:09 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 14, 2023, 07:18:02 PM


I'm sure they'll sell well...

How quickly they backtrack and move the goalpost.

Who is 'they?' Are they in the room with us now?

I swear, you fucking Marxists and arbitrarily assigning individuals to monolithic groups.

LOL it's hilarious you'd call me a marxist. Truly hilarious.

Is it as hilarious as Pundit making a statement, then accusing me of moving goalposts with my only post?

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 14, 2023, 07:18:02 PM
The test is:
How long before sales drop off?
How many people play the thing for any length of time?
And (most importantly) how does 7th ed sell?

Back in the 80s you could fond D&D candies on the shelves. I used to have some of the molds they came in with the plan to use them to make simple minis with. Sadly long gone. Wonder who made them They were not bad really.
 
I suspect the hang time between 6e and 7e will not be as long as 5e. wotc loves their damn 5 year plan too much.

Quote from: Omega on August 15, 2023, 01:05:33 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on August 14, 2023, 07:18:02 PM
The test is:
How long before sales drop off?
How many people play the thing for any length of time?
And (most importantly) how does 7th ed sell?

Back in the 80s you could fond D&D candies on the shelves. I used to have some of the molds they came in with the plan to use them to make simple minis with. Sadly long gone. Wonder who made them They were not bad really.
 
I suspect the hang time between 6e and 7e will not be as long as 5e. wotc loves their damn 5 year plan too much.

Aaannnndd I'm back, after a half hour rabbit hole that began with your candies, and turned in to general retro candy sites  :P

Sadly I couldn't find images of the actual D&D candy (and moulds) just the boxes.

Quote from: Venka on August 12, 2023, 01:07:05 AM
At 10:30ish you mention that "Strixhaven went up (in sales) for the same reason Spelljammer went up" or something similar.  You then attribute that to it being an established setting with fans.

I will offer an alternate or additional explanation:  Strixhaven has an *unusual amount of crunch* in it.  There's some things that that make it sound like the spells and other details are meant for restriction to the setting (there's even a feat or background or something that has, as a perk, access to some of the spells, probably originally written for players in other campaigns).  But, in the final product, there's no such restriction.  While I don't think it's legal in their adventure's league (most campaign type things are not), it's generally considered part of the "smooth everything together and assume it's all legal" set of things.

The most notorious spell here is Silvery Barbs, a 1st level spell that uses a reaction.  Like Shield and Counterspell, this then is a tool for serious time-economy.  Unlike those two, it's really good, with the main effect of forcing them to "reroll and use the lower roll".  This is distinct from disadvantage, so if the target had advantage, rolled twice and got a good roll from the highest and you used this, he'll be rolling a d20 and using the lower one- turning the end result into not much better than disadvantage, statistically.  And of course, your whole team can do this stunt.  So you throw a spell at them that they *really* want to pass, they pass it, and you (and possibly another caster on your team) begin throwing this at them, and if at any point they fail, that's it- they failed, or they burn a legendary resistance.  It also buffs allies at the same time. 

There are cool spells in there too, and other player options.  But when something contains really powerful player options, or even just one, it's gonna drive sales... or at least that's my take.

That's an interesting theory. It may be correct.

Right now, D&D is doing so "well" in its sales that it's seriously in doubt whether WotC will even bother to publish dead-tree books after the three core OneDnD books, at all. And in fact, they may even choose not to do so just as a way to be able to fire the useless trash that have produced the recent books without being accused of being 'racists' or 'transphobes'.

I can hardly claim to have my finger on the pulse of RPG publishing, but my gut feeling is that Grognard is right in that D&D has such brand strength core books will sell huge regardless of any good or bad content within.  They aren't too big to fail, but they've got much more wiggle room than pretty much anyone else because they're "the" RPG.  If you bug some moron on the street to name a roleplaying game, safe bet they aren't coming up with Pathfinder.  Even if most of what they put out at this point is garbage, it's going to take time for it to really seep down to the average player who isn't reading all the gay tiefling prom and no white writers allowed books.  My one friend who's in a 5E game had never heard of the Radiant Citadel or any of those setting books, since they're not being used in the game he's in.

Quote from: Valatar on August 15, 2023, 11:00:08 AM
I can hardly claim to have my finger on the pulse of RPG publishing, but my gut feeling is that Grognard is right in that D&D has such brand strength core books will sell huge regardless of any good or bad content within.  They aren't too big to fail, but they've got much more wiggle room than pretty much anyone else because they're "the" RPG. 

Case in point.  GM stopped making good cars in the 70's, for the most part.  They are just now completely collapsing because of their size and Brand recognition gave them inertia.

I'll be honest, before I bought into 5E on its release, I read through the PHB on the shelf and I saw two names listed as consultants and the guy who wrote Iron Heroes listed as the lead designer. And this was the reason I bought the book in the first place.

After I had played it for a while and then found out that those names had no association any longer with the game, and I saw the direction the new crew of designers was headed, I have completely reduced my usage of 5E to nil.

It didn't help WotC's case in my mind when I found out that Schwalb had dropped working on 5E like a hot potato, either. He is far and above my favorite game designer (no offense no RPGPundit meant). SotDL is by far a better game than 5E can now ever be with its current trajectory.

These are decent rundowns on how ESG financing is able to hold hold billion dollar corporations in thrall:


.


Can Wotzi going Woke make them Broke? In theory, Yes...

But there is a catch:

The massive network effect of players and GM's that D&D enjoys will act as a bulwark to a large degree from the effects of their decisions.

Most of the people that play RPG's only play D&D. Even with the colossal own-goal that was the 4e fiasco, Wotzi only split the player base, (with totally not D&D Pathfinder...) and were still able to win back the majority of their base with a single pivot.

D&D fans want to play D&D. And they are clearly willing to forgive, and put up with, a lot as long as they get to play their D&D.

Wotzi has to stay Woke and incompetent enough, long enough, for a competitor to not only gain a foothold, but surpass its player network to make it not worth the effort to switch back.

And at any time before that happens, Wotzi can Pivot, and virtually instantly re-gain its market leader status...

The level of mind-bending irrational brand loyalty in RPG land cannot be discounted when talking about Wotzi's potential demise.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 15, 2023, 06:31:09 PM

People give Disney shit for casting her, but she looks way more like a fish than the OG did. I mean, does red headed Ariel have eyes on the side of her head? No.

Hasbro's just shifting WoTC to a video game company. Once they get the video game up and running they'll be fine. Print's been dead for decades so you gotta move to digital to survive. Fuck books: they were cool once upon a time but computers are way better and everybody knows it.

(https://media.tenor.com/2acU4DbySGoAAAAC/its-the-future-randy-marsh.gif)

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 16, 2023, 06:08:18 AM
Hasbro's just shifting WoTC to a video game company. Once they get the video game up and running they'll be fine. Print's been dead for decades so you gotta move to digital to survive. Fuck books: they were cool once upon a time but computers are way better and everybody knows it.

(https://media.tenor.com/2acU4DbySGoAAAAC/its-the-future-randy-marsh.gif)

Preach it brother!

The TRUTH has been known for some time now...  ;)

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lleikpu8hq1qz6f4bo1_540.jpg)

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 16, 2023, 06:08:18 AM
Hasbro's just shifting WoTC to a video game company.

Well, they tried making a TTRPG play like a video game (4E) so maybe they will do better the other way 'round.  But, I won't buy in to it.

I tried reading through all of this and it goes off into the weeds in so many digressions that I have zero energy to parse it all to find the info I seek.


I do have questions:

What is the number on sales of early successful modules for 5e?

11K sounds bad even without knowing that number.

Where does this data come from?

And Lastly, can you post those humbers here so it is easier to make comparisons?

Thanks, Griff

Quote from: Secrets of Blackmoor on August 16, 2023, 05:44:35 PM
I tried reading through all of this and it goes off into the weeds in so many digressions that I have zero energy to parse it all to find the info I seek.


I do have questions:

What is the number on sales of early successful modules for 5e?

11K sounds bad even without knowing that number.

Where does this data come from?

And Lastly, can you post those humbers here so it is easier to make comparisons?

Thanks, Griff

The numbers come from a distribution company. 

I don't have the numbers but the earlier modules sold very well and the later ones dropped off hard.  The best comparison is the the numbers for the first  four weeks of release..  Also, nostalgia bait seems to sell better than WOTC originals.

Quote from: BadApple on August 16, 2023, 05:51:05 PM

Quote from: Secrets of Blackmoor on August 16, 2023, 05:44:35 PM
I tried reading through all of this and it goes off into the weeds in so many digressions that I have zero energy to parse it all to find the info I seek.


I do have questions:

What is the number on sales of early successful modules for 5e?

11K sounds bad even without knowing that number.

Where does this data come from?

And Lastly, can you post those humbers here so it is easier to make comparisons?

Thanks, Griff

The numbers come from a distribution company. 

I don't have the numbers but the earlier modules sold very well and the later ones dropped off hard.  The best comparison is the the numbers for the first  four weeks of release..  Also, nostalgia bait seems to sell better than WOTC originals.

Specifically the ones shown in this video:



You can just take the slider to the points in the video where he shows the spreadsheet and pause to take a look for your self.

Take screen caps to save if you really feel the need.

I'm surprised wotc has not come out and claimed the lagging sales was because of all those horrible right wing -ists who hate diversity and progress.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 16, 2023, 07:01:56 PM

You can just take the slider to the points in the video where he shows the spreadsheet and pause to take a look for your self.

Wonder how this compares to 3.x sales back in the day.  Good numbers though.  Glad there are so many people into FTTRPG.  Not like the relative handful of us in the 70's.

As Billy Mays would say, 'BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!'

How many of those 5E modules are original content, versus how many are updates/remasters of modules from prior editions (ToA, for example)?

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 15, 2023, 06:14:30 AM
Right now, D&D is doing so "well" in its sales that it's seriously in doubt whether WotC will even bother to publish dead-tree books after the three core OneDnD books, at all. And in fact, they may even choose not to do so just as a way to be able to fire the useless trash that have produced the recent books without being accused of being 'racists' or 'transphobes'.

It's not at all seriously in doubt. Name one single legit source that has expressed that doubt? They've said directly they will publish dead tree books and while it's fair to call them liars basing that on your personal opinion and then declaring your own opinion the "seriously in doubt" evidence is silly.

Quote from: Omega on August 16, 2023, 07:09:57 PM
I'm surprised wotc has not come out and claimed the lagging sales was because of all those horrible right wing -ists who hate diversity and progress.

You should be since they never came out and made that claim?

The fact that those sales numbers don't include Amazon makes them borderline worthless. Millennials and Zoomer, who are the majority market for 5E, do almost all their shopping on Amazon, where the D&D books have been consistent bestsellers.

Quote from: Klytus on August 17, 2023, 11:00:18 AM
The fact that those sales numbers don't include Amazon makes them borderline worthless. Millennials and Zoomer, who are the majority market for 5E, do almost all their shopping on Amazon, where the D&D books have been consistent bestsellers.

I feel like if we really want to get the information out of them, we should use the bore-worms.

Quote from: Klytus on August 17, 2023, 11:00:18 AM
The fact that those sales numbers don't include Amazon makes them borderline worthless.

There is probably a multiplier that can be applied consistently to other channel figures to give a good idea of Amazon's numbers.  5:1 is probably close.  5X the figures above for Amazon 

Quote from: Scooter on August 17, 2023, 12:33:20 PM

Quote from: Klytus on August 17, 2023, 11:00:18 AM
The fact that those sales numbers don't include Amazon makes them borderline worthless.

There is probably a multiplier that can be applied consistently to other channel figures to give a good idea of Amazon's numbers.  5:1 is probably close.  5X the figures above for Amazon 

I'm not sure it would be that high...

This is Wotzi's breakdown from 2017:

(https://www.snl.com/articles/392815889.png)

Toys R' Us is deader than Cardi B's virtue.

So where did its sales go as of 2018:

(https://i.insider.com/5bf2c97066be503f622e7b45?width=750&format=jpeg&auto=webp)

So Amazon and everything else combined got about half of the Toys R' Us sales...

IF this overall breakdown is still holds more or less true; We have a Rough 32/68 split of big box stores vs. everything else. (i.e. Amazon and Hobby shops...)

This is about a x3.1 multiplier

Assuming all this SWAG guessing holds any water; applied to the number given by PDM of 1,563,586 it would put the overall PHB sales somewhere around 4.8 million PHB's sold to date.

That's still a lotta sales...

Someone more savvy than me should be able to pull a more current sales breakdown from Hasbro.

Quote from: Jaeger on August 17, 2023, 05:14:52 PM

I'm not sure it would be that high...


This is about a x3.1 multiplier

Assuming all this SWAG guessing holds any water; applied to the number given by PDM of 1,563,586 it would put the overall PHB sales somewhere around 4.8 million PHB's sold to date.

That's still a lotta sales...

Someone more savvy than me should be able to pull a more current sales breakdown from Hasbro.

Thanks for the work and the numbers!

Quote from: Omega on August 16, 2023, 07:09:57 PM
I'm surprised wotc has not come out and claimed the lagging sales was because of all those horrible right wing -ists who hate diversity and progress.

They didn't because they were hoping no one would ever find it out, and wanted to create the LIE that Radiant Citadel was the greatest most successful product ever and it won an ENnie and the Diana Jones Award combined, so it must be good and that proves that critical theory is good and liked.

Quote from: Mistwell on August 17, 2023, 10:07:14 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 15, 2023, 06:14:30 AM
Right now, D&D is doing so "well" in its sales that it's seriously in doubt whether WotC will even bother to publish dead-tree books after the three core OneDnD books, at all. And in fact, they may even choose not to do so just as a way to be able to fire the useless trash that have produced the recent books without being accused of being 'racists' or 'transphobes'.

It's not at all seriously in doubt. Name one single legit source that has expressed that doubt? They've said directly they will publish dead tree books and while it's fair to call them liars basing that on your personal opinion and then declaring your own opinion the "seriously in doubt" evidence is silly.

1. Someone please screenshot or archive the above post. I have the feeling that within 48 months it will be useful to post as an I Told You So.

2. Steps are already on their way.

3. Other people besides myself, who also have contacts and insight into WotC activity, have been thinking the same thing is going to happen. Including Prof. Dungeon Master in the video where he revealed the abysmal sales of the recent D&D adventures. The ones full of wokeness, which NO ONE WANTS.

4. The Edition Change and launch of the VTT is the perfect moment for Hasbro to restructure WotC and get rid of a bunch of communist narcissistic psychopaths, of which something around 100 of whom, almost none of them with any real experience in game design, and many of whom had literally never played D&D and have no interest in doing so (being instead qualified as vegan cookbook authors, and young adult novelists, and professional degenerates, and people Ajit George hopes to get a blowjob from), are being subsidized by WotC as a Virtue Signal that (in light of the awful books the produce) is costing WotC far more than the pittance they're actually venmo-ing to these losers. But you see, WotC couldn't ever fire them normally without being called Racist and/or Transphobic. BUT if they just 'shift' to the VTT, and to making VTT adventures that are more like dungeon crawls or skirmishing than about Questioning Your Sexuality In a Magical Starbucks While Planning For Prom While Your Life is a Hot Mess (literally a D&D setting now), they can just stop contracting all those parasites. They think the money is in VTT anyways, but getting rid of the dead weight that just keeps growing and growing as the activists demand more and more of their friends get checks too, that's a sweet plus.

Quote from: Klytus on August 17, 2023, 11:00:18 AM
The fact that those sales numbers don't include Amazon makes them borderline worthless. Millennials and Zoomer, who are the majority market for 5E, do almost all their shopping on Amazon, where the D&D books have been consistent bestsellers.

They still apply comparatively. I mean, it's possible in theory that on Amazon the splatbooks sold zero and Strixhaven sold 1 billion copies, but it's vastly more likely that the proportions are going to be pretty close to the same ones in bookstores.