Here's the video! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwDWx1cAqP4)
From the Torment Kickstarter: (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?626446-Let-s-Read-The-Complete-Book-of-Elves&p=16517529#post16517529)
QuoteLast, but most certainly not least: Upon reaching $2.5m, we will send out a special video from Colin. Those of you familiar with Colin’s very early work may recall that he wrote the Complete Book of Elves for 2nd Edition AD&D. You AD&D players may remember how dreadful this work was, making elves so incredibly powerful and unbalanced that all of our AD&D games were henceforth ruined until 3rd Edition D&D came to save us. (This is a slight overstatement. We could just pretend the book never existed, after all. That’s what I did…) Fortunately, Colin wrote that over 20 years ago and he’s learned much since then. =) Plus he’s the creative guy on Torment and Adam and I aren’t going to let him get too close to the gameplay systems. Just kidding. (Mostly. )
But we’ve always felt that he owes us for polluting our campaigns with his bizarre passion for elves. Thankfully, Colin seems to have gotten through his elf-fetish years but his penance isn’t yet complete. He has apologized before, but somehow I find it lacking. I don't know about you, but I want to see him say it. So as part of our update celebrating this Stretch Goal, Colin will apologize publicly for this sin of his youth through a special video.
Thoughts?
The Complete Elf Book was what we got upset about before God invented 3rd edition.
I'm not a big fan of elves as treated in xD&D anyway, but the CBoE didn't seem any worse than anything else in the line.
Never used the book in the first place, so never affected me....
That's pretty funny :D
I'm saddened that Colin feels the need to apologize for a creative work at all. I found the book engaging and exciting. It helped fuel my desire to continue playing the game. Later I decided that I had a different vision for elves, but that would not have been possible without the critical examination of elves as portrayed in numerous sources including particularly the Complete Book of Elves.
No creative work is above critical review (even negative critical review), but that's much different from apologizing for the act of creation.
I'm not familiar with the Kickstarter, but I'd be likely to withdraw my support for any product that added this type of ridiculousness for extra money.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;635386I'm not familiar with the Kickstarter, but I'd be likely to withdraw my support for any product that added this type of ridiculousness for extra money.
Seriously? An author taking the piss out of his own work, in a tongue-in-cheek manner, offends you?
I'm not urging you to donate — I'm not — but why should that bother you so much? I thought a similar moment in one of the "Shadowrun Returns" videos was hilarious. (Guy getting pelted with Nerf darts, IIRC.)
To each his own, but your stance is puzzling.
It's pretty funny, and goes to show they know exactly what type of audience they are going for, which probably liked Planescape Torment, probably played AD&D2, and therefore, probably knows about the Complete Book of the Elves or could very easily understand what Colin means with little to no context. It costs zero dollars, and gives the funders the feeling of belonging, of being "in on the joke" with the rest of the "community" etc. It's good PR.
Pretty funny idea. I've only glanced through some of the 2nd ed books (1st ed fan here), but I can imagine...
Good luck on your kickstarter. Although I think I'll stick with actually preordering/ordering products. From what I understand, a kickstarter is a 'donation' with no guarantees. At least if a preorder goes south, you can dispute any credit card charge.
I found the aforementioned "Shadowrun Returns" video, here (https://d2pq0u4uni88oo.cloudfront.net/projects/109618/video-93290-h264_high.mp4). The guy being pelted is the Executive Producer for the 2007 Shadowrun FPS, for Xbox 360. It s-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-u-ucked.
This is awesome not so much because CBoE was so bad (it was bad, but certainly not forgive-me-for-unleashing-this-upon-the-unsuspecting-world bad), but because of the precedent it opens.
In the same (tongue-in-cheek) spirit, I'd love to see whoever wrote Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand apologize in a similar manner. Or Justin Achilli for using and abusing foul language in an attempt to sound edgy (Clanbook: Giovanni, anyone?). Or the author of Chaos Factor. Fuck me, White Wolf has a lot to apologize for. ;)
What about you? Who would you like to apologize, and for what?
Quote from: The Butcher;635424This is awesome not so much because CBoE was so bad (it was bad, but certainly not forgive-me-for-unleashing-this-upon-the-unsuspecting-world bad), but because of the precedent it opens.
In the same (tongue-in-cheek) spirit, I'd love to see whoever wrote Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand apologize in a similar manner. Or Justin Achilli for using and abusing foul language in an attempt to sound edgy (Clanbook: Giovanni, anyone?). Or the author of Chaos Factor. Fuck me, White Wolf has a lot to apologize for. ;)
I agree about DSOTBH, but I ran Chaos Factor for my Mage group as a high octane fueled chase, and my group loved it, especially the big battle with Sam Haight and his super magick staff at the end.
No work of art that, but man we got some good gaming mileage out of old Sam.
DSOTBH would have been OK if it didn't share the same setting as V:TM.
Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;635484I agree about DSOTBH, but I ran Chaos Factor for my Mage group as a high octane fueled chase, and my group loved it, especially the big battle with Sam Haight and his super magick staff at the end.
No work of art that, but man we got some good gaming mileage out of old Sam.
DSOTBH would have been OK if it didn't share the same setting as V:TM.
I know, I know, I'm being cheeky. Both DSotBH and Chaos Factor are glorious gonzo jewels in their own way, God knows I've had some pretty wild stuff happen at my own games, and especially LARPs. I'm talking about Black Spiral Dancers setting (bale)fire to huge portions of the city, and Methuselahs duking it out on the street with massive collateral damage (both from the fight and the inevitable Masquerade cleanup). There's a lot to be said about over-the-top grimdark supers WoD. Not all of it bad even. ;)
I never thought the book was that bad. The only thing that was OP in it was the Bladesinger which IIRC let an elf Fighter/Mage wear armor, but I might be recalling that incorrectly anyway.
There is just this Internet nerd disdain for elves that I just don't get.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;635553There is just this Internet nerd disdain for elves that I just don't get.
It's not the elves.
It's the annoying gits who tend to play them. A lot.
Quote from: Wolf, Richard;635553There is just this Internet nerd disdain for elves that I just don't get.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;635561It's not the elves.
It's the annoying gits who tend to play them. A lot.
This.
In AD&D2, casting
Haste cost a year of life in the character affected. So we would end up with Players having elves who demanded
Haste be cast every combat because they lived a thousand years and could afford to age some while the lesser races (like humans) were just Mayflies meant for death. It damn near took a punch to the face before I was able to convince these guys that they were killing my human character through old age because of this.
This was all in RPGA games, which is also one of the reasons I dislike the RPGA.
Quote from: The Butcher;635492Both DSotBH and Chaos Factor are glorious gonzo jewels in their own way
World of Darkness "Done right" bores me to fucking tears, but I would play a DSotBH campaign (or "
Underworld as co-directed by David Cronenberg and John Woo with production design by H.R. Geiger") in a heartbeart. I mean, you play international vampire super-agents fighting a secret invasion by a sentient alien disease. This idea is many things, but dull is not one of them.
Who would I like to apologize? Robin Laws. For what he did to the Glorantha gaming that I loved so much. Heroquest/Hero Wars. Bah.
Quote from: jeff37923;635564This.
In AD&D2, casting Haste cost a year of life in the character affected. So we would end up with Players having elves who demanded Haste be cast every combat because they lived a thousand years and could afford to age some while the lesser races (like humans) were just Mayflies meant for death. It damn near took a punch to the face before I was able to convince these guys that they were killing my human character through old age because of this.
This was all in RPGA games, which is also one of the reasons I dislike the RPGA.
I see this as more of an issue with the Haste spell than the elves. Aging upon casting is a bad way to balance most magic, especially if it is a fixed cost of years. The exception, campaign boosting rituals, would not be the sort of thing that slowly killed off the party unexpectedly.
Quote from: Baron;635672Who would I like to apologize? Robin Laws. For what he did to the Glorantha gaming that I loved so much. Heroquest/Hero Wars. Bah.
Hmm, yeah, that was bad.
I liked the Complete Book of Elves. Elves should be overpowered IMO.
As for who I'd like an apology from?
Whoever wrote WOD Gypsies I guess. Cant think of anyone else I actually think owes me personally an apology. Plenty of guys I'd love to see smacked upside the head, but not out of any debt to me, just karmic justice.
Quote from: Votan;635710I see this as more of an issue with the Haste spell than the elves. Aging upon casting is a bad way to balance most magic, especially if it is a fixed cost of years. The exception, campaign boosting rituals, would not be the sort of thing that slowly killed off the party unexpectedly.
Dude could have casted
Haste so that it targetted something besides my character. But noooo, "You wouldn't have a problem if you'd just played an elf. Quit harshing my munchkinism!"
Now that is a double-edged sword. On one hand COMPLETE BOOK OF ELVES was not in the slightest bit powerful except if you're narrating a story and don't like interaction. On the other hand, overall CBOE, as an add-on for 2E, was very bland didn't fix the weak problems of the 2E system (weak monsters/lessened treasure) and that is its real harshness.
So you have a twofold problem already existing. That the author can't address and chooses to create a nonsensical "problem".
Of course, some people will "buy" it but if they've fallen for the broken 2E system's treasure and monster failures that I cited above then they'll fall for anything.
The "Complete" books were boring.
3E/PERTHFERNDER has a concern that power is their problem. "Form" is the problem. FORM! "Edition era D&D" which is technically the moment Gygax said "second edition" in Dragon to right now has always had a hand-wringing fear of artifacts and powerful concepts. We are in the era of "munchkin namecalling" dorks shitting on everything.
I think that a large problem with the CBOE wasn't its mechanics, but how the fluff text portrayed Elves.
A few gems include Grey Elves who practice slavery (but the book says that it's okay, because the slaves are happy!); elves who use magical prosthetic limbs to replace missing ones are viewed as incompetent weaklings who are a drain on their society (ableism); and they can do everything better than everybody else (even dwarven stonecraft is inferior to elven masonry!).
Quote from: Libertad;636123I think that a large problem with the CBOE wasn't its mechanics, but how the fluff text portrayed Elves.
A few gems include Grey Elves who practice slavery (but the book says that it's okay, because the slaves are happy!); elves who use magical prosthetic limbs to replace missing ones are viewed as incompetent weaklings who are a drain on their society (ableism); and they can do everything better than everybody else (even dwarven stonecraft is inferior to elven masonry!).
Objectivist elves? I could
totally see this shit working on a game world.
But then I always run elves as assholes. Assholes on the side of Light and Good, more often than not, but assholes nevertheless.
The video is out! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwDWx1cAqP4)
Quote from: jeff37923;635875Dude could have casted Haste so that it targetted something besides my character. But noooo, "You wouldn't have a problem if you'd just played an elf. Quit harshing my munchkinism!"
I always thought
Haste was only included in the spell list in order to identify the players who couldn't discern that
Slow did practically the exact same thing (and was objectively better at the same thing in 1st edition), without the penalty.
In other words, players who only read the stuff that made them more powerful, rather than finding the stuff that would make them more successful.
Haste is the best meta-game spell ever written.
Are you sure that Slow doesn't have the same aging effect as Haste?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Libertad;636473The video is out! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwDWx1cAqP4)
Great video! I didn't expect the snark. 8/10.
Quote from: RPGPundit;636807Are you sure that Slow doesn't have the same aging effect as Haste?
RPGPundit
Positive - pull out your 1E books and read the two spell descriptions for yourself.
Quote from: Libertad;636123A few gems include Grey Elves who practice slavery (but the book says that it's okay, because the slaves are happy!); elves who use magical prosthetic limbs to replace missing ones are viewed as incompetent weaklings who are a drain on their society (ableism); and they can do everything better than everybody else (even dwarven stonecraft is inferior to elven masonry!).
This guy owes gamers more than an apology. He deserves to let anyone who wants to kick him in the nuts.
Best casting of Haste ever. Wizard cast it on a swam of giant wasps, big 5HD things, the size of dogs, with poison stings. The wasps hasted aged and all died as the lifespan of a Wasp is measured in weeks.
As DM I had to roll with it as it was a great move.
Like I said he's barking up the wrong tree. He shouldn't have to apologize for anything. As a contributor to LORRAINESCAPE, he should just STOP. But there are many "shoulds" out on the table in tabletop RPG universe way ahead of him!
Planescape is good too.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;635575World of Darkness "Done right" bores me to fucking tears, but I would play a DSotBH campaign (or "Underworld as co-directed by David Cronenberg and John Woo with production design by H.R. Geiger") in a heartbeart. I mean, you play international vampire super-agents fighting a secret invasion by a sentient alien disease. This idea is many things, but dull is not one of them.
In general I find running traditional World of Darkness games as some variant of
Underworld tends to work a charm.
Quote from: jibbajibba;636961Best casting of Haste ever. Wizard cast it on a swam of giant wasps, big 5HD things, the size of dogs, with poison stings. The wasps hasted aged and all died as the lifespan of a Wasp is measured in weeks.
As DM I had to roll with it as it was a great move.
You won the thread.
Pretty good, but was this in-character knowledge regarding specifically giant wasps?
Or was this a guy using real-life out of character knowledge about regular wasps and then demanding that the fantasy world work that way?
RPGPundit
Quote from: The Butcher;636179Objectivist elves? I could totally see this shit working on a game world.
But then I always run elves as assholes. Assholes on the side of Light and Good, more often than not, but assholes nevertheless.
Yeah. I always thought of elves as jerks, so those things listed kind of fit them well for my settings.
I remember enjoying the book of elves when it came out.
NPC elves must always be some variety of dick.
Quote from: Baron;635672Who would I like to apologize? Robin Laws. For what he did to the Glorantha gaming that I loved so much. Heroquest/Hero Wars. Bah.
What, he created this new game to replace RQ and totally without Greg Stafford's approval? And then he stopped all future development for RQ? And then he came to your house and burned all your RQ books? I hope that bastard burns in hell like the pages of those RQ manuals.
Quote from: Planet Algol;637962NPC elves must always be some variety of dick.
Yup. Mine tend to be.
I dislike Elves as a player race/class mainly because I think to played "right", they should be completely alien, creatures from out of dreams who view life in a completely different manner from humans, a challenge very few players are up to.
As NPcs, I play elves like minor nature dieties, anamistic spirits that view shorter-lived races in much the same manner as humans would view mayflies.
Quote from: TristramEvans;638544I dislike Elves as a player race/class mainly because I think to played "right", they should be completely alien, creatures from out of dreams who view life in a completely different manner from humans, a challenge very few players are up to.
As NPcs, I play elves like minor nature dieties, anamistic spirits that view shorter-lived races in much the same manner as humans would view mayflies.
I agree with all this and I think this is the way the book is written and why it's hated and is part of the general elf hate.
Elves are kind of like that in my campaign world, actually: hardcore isolationists who take that to such extremes that they disown half-elf children and refuse to have anything to do with them. Half-elves end up caught between this deep desire to penetrate the mysteries of their own heritage and their anger at being rejected by one of their parents.
Elves in my campaign are effectively immortal - unless they're killed. Humans want to go to war every generation (or more often, as often as not). They don't really understand why elves won't 'take a stand' against the 'evils of the world'. But even if a particular warlord is terrible, a 30 year rule is pretty insignificant from their point of view. It'd be no more harrowing than if you temporarily had to report to a boss you hate for a month.
Once people wrap their head around that major difference in worldview, add in that elves don't believe in an afterlife, you have a powerful motive to survive, while humans happily throw their lives away for a 'cause' that seems ephemeral to the elves.
Most of the stereotypes (positive and negative) flow from that. As far as population, it tends to be low (compared to humans), but very high level. A 'village' of 0th or 1st level commoners doesn't exist. Most of the residents will be mid-level with a rare few very low or very high.
As for half-elves, they only count if their mother is elven. If the mother is human, the child is human. It's sort of the opposite for half-orcs: if the mother is a human, it's a half-Orc. If the mother is an Orc, so is the child.
Quote from: RPGPundit;637898Pretty good, but was this in-character knowledge regarding specifically giant wasps?
Or was this a guy using real-life out of character knowledge about regular wasps and then demanding that the fantasy world work that way?
RPGPundit
In character knowledge about normal wasps, he had some sort of rural upbringing. He had bugger all idea about giant wasps and it could well have bitten him on the arse (or stung him) as the wasps may have lived hundreds of years and butchered he party as a result.
As the DM I just thought that was quite clever and rolled with it. I had only invented the idea of giant wasps about 10 minutes earlier and so had no firm plans around their lifecycle.
Of course they had to run away anyway because the obvious extrapolation was that somewhere there was a fucking huge nest of giant wasps....
Quote from: jibbajibba;638635In character knowledge about normal wasps, he had some sort of rural upbringing. He had bugger all idea about giant wasps and it could well have bitten him on the arse (or stung him) as the wasps may have lived hundreds of years and butchered he party as a result.
As the DM I just thought that was quite clever and rolled with it. I had only invented the idea of giant wasps about 10 minutes earlier and so had no firm plans around their lifecycle.
Of course they had to run away anyway because the obvious extrapolation was that somewhere there was a fucking huge nest of giant wasps....
As long as it was in-character, its pretty cool, and I generally would "run with" something like that too.